Author Topic: Grammar that makes you cringe  (Read 839237 times)

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1100 on: 06 October, 2010, 02:48:55 pm »
I can just about go with it, if the spill was near the bed of the river, and we're talking about the point on the surface, but that would be daft.

Deepwater Horizon?

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1101 on: 06 October, 2010, 02:50:43 pm »
I used to work in an industry where we used the words light, lamp, lantern and luminaire.  They weren't interchangeable; they all meant something different.  And it mattered.

Similarly cable and wire...

I used to get really cross with people using the wrong words.
Getting there...

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1102 on: 06 October, 2010, 02:53:14 pm »
And it mattered.

Yes, it matters in that context. I don't suppose most people care much what epicentre really means.

Most people are stupid, of course.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1103 on: 06 October, 2010, 02:54:02 pm »
I can just about go with it, if the spill was near the bed of the river, and we're talking about the point on the surface, but that would be daft.

Deepwater Horizon?

d.


Yeah, that would have had an epicentre significantly removed from the point of the leak.

Thinking about it, ISTR that epicentre isn't just a geological term, but a mathematical one.  Euclid discussed them.
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Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1104 on: 06 October, 2010, 02:55:19 pm »
I wouldn't say that most people are stupid. I would say that for most people in most contexts the difference does not matter, if it's even evident in any way.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1105 on: 06 October, 2010, 02:56:55 pm »
In a great many contexts, the difference between the words wrong and right doesn't matter much.  Doesn't invalidate the words. 
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Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1106 on: 06 October, 2010, 03:05:11 pm »
I don't think anyone's suggesting any words are or should be invalidated. I'm just trying, clumsily, to suggest mechanisms of meaning shift.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

HTFB

  • The Monkey and the Plywood Violin
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1107 on: 06 October, 2010, 03:11:35 pm »
Yeah, that would have had an epicentre significantly removed from the point of the leak.

Thinking about it, ISTR that epicentre isn't just a geological term, but a mathematical one.  Euclid discussed them.

Er, no. I can do you incentre, circumcentre, centroid, orthocentre...

None of these are named in Euclid, though they're constructed.

On edit, perhaps not all of them are constructed. I oughtn't to spend time looking this up, really.
Not especially helpful or mature

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1108 on: 06 October, 2010, 03:12:49 pm »
I need to go look at my Elements...
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mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1109 on: 06 October, 2010, 03:36:13 pm »
Yes, it's precisely because of that association with earthquakes that reporters use "epicentre" - never mind what it means, it heightens the impression of being part of a cataclysmic event. Nothing especially wrong with that apart from being lazy journalism.

Of course, the word "centre" is more accurate, simpler and perfectly serviceable.
Exactly - we shouldn't be encouraging the use of overly complex language (which might be hard for some to understand), especially where the meaning is a bit suspect!

You can't justify this with guff about 'meaning shift', it's still bad writing. These people aren't Shakespeares, creating poetic new extensions to the language; they're just pretentious and wrong.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1110 on: 06 October, 2010, 03:38:36 pm »
Exactly - we shouldn't be encouraging the use of overly complex language (which might be hard for some to understand), especially where the meaning is a bit suspect!

You can't justify this with guff about 'meaning shift', it's still bad writing. These people aren't Shakespeares, creating poetic new extensions to the language; they're just pretentious and wrong.

Does that include Graham Swift? ;)
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mattc

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1111 on: 06 October, 2010, 03:41:43 pm »
Dunno - was he a journalist?!?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1112 on: 06 October, 2010, 03:45:04 pm »
You can't justify this with guff about 'meaning shift', it's still bad writing. These people aren't Shakespeares, creating poetic new extensions to the language; they're just pretentious and wrong.
No justification intended from me.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Andrij

  • Андрій
  • Ερασιτεχνικός μισάνθρωπος
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1113 on: 06 October, 2010, 04:56:46 pm »
And was it really from an aluminum plant?

I thought American's had pronunciation problems until recently. Now I see that both my bikes have aluminum on them I realise that either they cannot spell properly or they use an alloy that is different to aluminium.

No, they don't.  Brits just have this obsession with declaring any difference in English, especially is if comes from the US, to be WRONG.

I know wikipedia isn't infallible, but this is worth a read.
 
;D  Andrij.  I pronounce you Complete and Utter GIT   :thumbsup:

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1114 on: 06 October, 2010, 05:43:59 pm »
And was it really from an aluminum plant?

I thought American's had pronunciation problems until recently. Now I see that both my bikes have aluminum on them I realise that either they cannot spell properly or they use an alloy that is different to aluminium.

There's a third option...
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

rower40

  • Not my boat. Now sold.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1115 on: 06 October, 2010, 05:46:52 pm »
And was it really from an aluminum plant?

I thought American's had pronunciation problems until recently. Now I see that both my bikes have aluminum on them I realise that either they cannot spell properly or they use an alloy that is different to aluminium.
But the precious metal is "Platinum".  I've not seen any suggestion to call it Plat-in-ium.  So metal names ending "-um" rather than "-ium" isn't necessarily a USAnian thing.
Be Naughty; save Santa a trip

Wowbagger

  • Stout dipper
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1116 on: 06 October, 2010, 05:48:39 pm »
Bzzt. Deviation. This discussion should take placed in the "Spelling" thread.

</Paul Merton>
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1117 on: 06 October, 2010, 06:16:17 pm »
Quote from: Wikipedia
The name "aluminium" derives from its status as a base of alum. "Alum" in turn is a Latin word that literally means "bitter salt".
So aluminium frames cannot be sweet handling?
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1118 on: 06 October, 2010, 06:33:35 pm »
You can't justify this with guff about 'meaning shift', it's still bad writing. These people aren't Shakespeares, creating poetic new extensions to the language; they're just pretentious and wrong.
No justification intended from me.
Ah, sorry. Where I wrote 'you' I was meaning them! Hence:

"They can't justify this ... "  (the cads!)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1119 on: 06 October, 2010, 06:36:56 pm »
That's ok then.  :)
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1120 on: 06 October, 2010, 08:44:31 pm »
I wouldn't say that most people are stupid. I would say that for most people in most contexts the difference does not matter, if it's even evident in any way.
But there's a duty to understand a word before using it. I've quite often looked up words I don't often use before putting finger to key, and found that they didn't quite mean what I thought - so I used something else.

Although meanings do develop, we now seem to me to be allowing that to happen at a rate that creates real problems. The main one is the need for a replacement word or term to mean what the one we have undermined meant. Quite often it's marketing-related or, as mentioned above, journalism. Examples are legion.

In photography, for example, a macro lens means a lens that magnifies so much that the image on the film (sensor, now) is bigger than was the original object. It's come to mean any lens with a bit of a close-up function. That's fine and dandy, but now keen photographers need a new term for "macro".

In the 1980s, I worked on summaries of magazine articles. Desktop publishing and electronic publishing were both emerging. One means using PC-type technology for layout and so on, although the end result is normally still printed on paper. The other means that the end product is an electronic book, journal or other item, whatever the technology that produces it (although it's difficult to do electronic publishing without a computer...) Some journalists were clearly unable to "get" the difference, life got quite confusing, and the need for a new term for electronic publishing seemed a real prospect. In the end the market took off more, desktop publishing became so common-place that people stopped bothering to talk about it, and the term "electronic publishing" survived.

How long before we're having to replace terms annually with new ones because their meaning has been lost? And how do you communicate when words change that fast?

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1121 on: 06 October, 2010, 08:48:11 pm »
How long before we're having to replace terms annually with new ones because their meaning has been lost? And how do you communicate when words change that fast?

Kettle hammock getting it melon.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

HTFB

  • The Monkey and the Plywood Violin
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1122 on: 06 October, 2010, 08:58:34 pm »
How long before we're having to replace terms annually with new ones because their meaning has been lost? And how do you communicate when words change that fast?

Festina cromulente, as they say in Latin.
Not especially helpful or mature

rower40

  • Not my boat. Now sold.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1123 on: 06 October, 2010, 09:53:58 pm »
How long before we're having to replace terms annually with new ones because their meaning has been lost? And how do you communicate when words change that fast?

Festina cromulente, as they say in Latin.
;D ;D Genius  ;D ;D
Be Naughty; save Santa a trip

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #1124 on: 06 October, 2010, 10:04:17 pm »
In photography, for example, a macro lens means a lens that magnifies so much that the image on the film (sensor, now) is bigger than was the original object. It's come to mean any lens with a bit of a close-up function. That's fine and dandy, but now keen photographers need a new term for "macro".

Is that the same as the way that 'accident' has come to be used to mean 'blame-free' when it actually means 'unintended'?

*Dons flameproof underwear and runs for it*
Life is too important to be taken seriously.