Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => PBP 2019 => Topic started by: yanto on August 27, 2019, 07:03:49 am

Title: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: yanto on August 27, 2019, 07:03:49 am
Apart from the now infamous case of the 70 year old French man in his red and white WAW velomobile with an electric motor seen here in this video at 22 seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjwTdXo3-1w&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR05k-Eu10raBJFb-niznxd_gMHfhf38es4GI4xEyVc39FvzPn8hq9y7aCA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjwTdXo3-1w&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR05k-Eu10raBJFb-niznxd_gMHfhf38es4GI4xEyVc39FvzPn8hq9y7aCA)

I saw what I believe to be cheating or bending the rules on a couple of occasions:

1st was not far from Fougeres where a couple of German "A" group riders from a cycle team who were stopped at the roadside with a mechanical and there was a van with a mechanic and one of the bikes on a bike stand being worked on.

2nd was the run between Sizun and Brest where again there was an "A" group rider chatting with a group of cyclists in the same club shirts, soon after he came storming past drafting two team mates who were pacing him, as he came past me he clicked his fingers, then wagged one which I read as "you haven't seen this".   

Lastly between Dreux and Rambouillet I missed some signs and as I was milling about off route trying to find the official route again a car came past heading towards Rambouillet with a bike on a rack with PBP frame numbers, this could of course have been somebody who had packed, but  then again?

Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Davef on August 27, 2019, 07:21:45 am
On two separate occasions French riders were joined by their clubmates as they passed through their locale. The first seemed social, the second definitely not (or maybe I was too tired to tack on the back).

On the subject of rule bending, I want to know how some of the tail enders obtained their qualifying SR. I would like to see DNFs by country as there was very little diversity in the 30 hours to Fougères crowd.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Redlight on August 27, 2019, 07:43:43 am
In 2011 I saw a rider putting his bike on the back of a car just before the climb (eastbound) the the Roc.  I saw the same rider later, with his bike, at the Carhaix control.

It happens. They cheat only themselves.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Feanor on August 27, 2019, 07:57:38 am
There was certainly a fair bit of undeclared support between controls.

I passed several groups huddled round open cars in small village car parks, by the side of the route.

I also noticed several riders who were carrying *nothing*, not even the smallest of seat packs you would expect on a typical club ride! It's possible that they had legitimate support at each control, and just took the risk for 100k or so between the controls. <shrug>
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: The French Tandem on August 27, 2019, 08:01:25 am
They cheat only themselves.

Exactly this. There is no money at stake on pbp. No glory either. Out of the tiny audax world, no one cares.

Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: frankly frankie on August 27, 2019, 08:39:19 am
Even inside the tiny audax world, no one cares.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: thatotherjamie on August 27, 2019, 08:59:37 am
Apart from the now infamous case of the 70 year old French man in his red and white WAW velomobile with an electric motor seen here in this video at 22 seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjwTdXo3-1w&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR05k-Eu10raBJFb-niznxd_gMHfhf38es4GI4xEyVc39FvzPn8hq9y7aCA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjwTdXo3-1w&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR05k-Eu10raBJFb-niznxd_gMHfhf38es4GI4xEyVc39FvzPn8hq9y7aCA)

haha I knew it!

On a hilly section between Loudeac & St Nic I remember having been climbing for sometime, he came past like I was stood still. There was a 90 degree corner just before the climb so there would have been no way for a run up to carry speed for that long.

Has he actually been found out?
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: StevieB on August 27, 2019, 09:27:18 am
Has he actually been found out?

Yes he was! (On good authority.)

Can you imagine a greater shame than returning to your machine to find ten ACP officials standing around having dismantled it sufficiently to reveal a hidden battery and engine?
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: eddum on August 27, 2019, 09:48:13 am
Lastly between Dreux and Rambouillet I missed some signs and as I was milling about off route trying to find the official route again a car came past heading towards Rambouillet with a bike on a rack with PBP frame numbers, this could of course have been somebody who had packed, but  then again?

Certainly in the latter stages I did note a number of campers/cars coming past with bikes + frame numbers on and did wonder... no way of knowing really.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: tomj on August 27, 2019, 10:20:28 am
Have seen many iffy situations in the past, do I care, no not really, but the ‘electric bike’ thing is a step too far.

Glad he was caught.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: rob on August 27, 2019, 10:22:49 am
I passed an ACP car stopping at a roadside van and having a word.   He had a table, chairs and drinks out.   I did wonder if they were checking whether this support was neutral or not.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Ivo on August 27, 2019, 10:36:36 am
Apart from the now infamous case of the 70 year old French man in his red and white WAW velomobile with an electric motor seen here in this video at 22 seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjwTdXo3-1w&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR05k-Eu10raBJFb-niznxd_gMHfhf38es4GI4xEyVc39FvzPn8hq9y7aCA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjwTdXo3-1w&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR05k-Eu10raBJFb-niznxd_gMHfhf38es4GI4xEyVc39FvzPn8hq9y7aCA)


F206? He's mentioned as finished on the tracker.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: zigzag on August 27, 2019, 10:39:53 am
i've seen people cheating on previous editions, haven't noticed on this one. they cheat themselves, mostly. this poem seems appropriate:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190827/ca544bee8736eca44ac110d2125f1653.jpg)
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Ian H on August 27, 2019, 10:39:53 am
I recall an illuminating conversation with a man in a Loudeac bar a couple of years ago, regarding his observations, as a commissaire, of stuff-that-went-on.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: T42 on August 27, 2019, 11:18:50 am
Apart from the now infamous case of the 70 year old French man in his red and white WAW velomobile with an electric motor seen here in this video at 22 seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjwTdXo3-1w&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR05k-Eu10raBJFb-niznxd_gMHfhf38es4GI4xEyVc39FvzPn8hq9y7aCA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjwTdXo3-1w&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR05k-Eu10raBJFb-niznxd_gMHfhf38es4GI4xEyVc39FvzPn8hq9y7aCA)


F206? He's mentioned as finished on the tracker.

Aye, but the tracker is just for tracking.  Chap I know packed at Loudeac then rode home gently over the next two days and was given 87 hours by the tracker.  A couple of details like Carhaix and Brest were missing from the list, though.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: PeterM on August 27, 2019, 12:18:00 pm
I recall an illuminating conversation with a man in a Loudeac bar a couple of years ago, regarding his observations, as a commissaire, of stuff-that-went-on.

That's very cryptic.  Juicy detail please (if you can remember it)
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: zigzag on August 27, 2019, 12:29:08 pm
bending rules rather than cheating - i've seen many bikes with aerobars clearly extending further than they should (i'm talking 5cm+). this would have saved me from tingly fingers - the price for sticking to the rules..
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on August 27, 2019, 12:34:41 pm
Heather and I contributed a fair amount to the cheating anecdotes. We had a numbered bike on the back of a car, on the route. I used last time's number as a way of accessing the bike parks, as flashing my custom-made press pass would have slowed things down.

We also drove on the route, and parked on the verge. That's perfectly legitimate with a red 'Officiel' sticker, it's the blue ones that can't access the route. It was noticeable that some riders got support from unmarked vehicles, they were probably Normans and Bretons meeting their mates along the way.

We're quite happy to act as neutral support. It's like any activity, experience tells, and there are people who know that we'll have a basic medical kit and sunscreen. There are obviously boundaries we won't cross. It's one reason why we've never set out to follow individual riders, so as to avoid the temptation to help the story along.

We end up performing all manner of roles. Some will have spotted me directing riders next to the dodgy turn at the Bar Patton in St Meen le Grand on the return. That's also where we picked up our souvenir direction sign, an outbound Brest one, which we'd used as a prop for a shot of riders passing the Disney-style  Hotel de Ville.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: T42 on August 27, 2019, 12:50:37 pm
bending rules rather than cheating - i've seen many bikes with aerobars clearly extending further than they should (i'm talking 5cm+). this would have saved me from tingly fingers - the price for sticking to the rules..

It's about time the aerobar rule was relaxed anyway. I can understand it in UAF events where everyone is in the same pack, but I can't think how aerobars might be more dangerous than the sticky-out chainrings of a SWB recumbent.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Kim on August 27, 2019, 12:54:00 pm
bending rules rather than cheating - i've seen many bikes with aerobars clearly extending further than they should (i'm talking 5cm+). this would have saved me from tingly fingers - the price for sticking to the rules..

It's about time the aerobar rule was relaxed anyway. I can understand it in UAF events where everyone is in the same pack, but I can't think how aerobars might be more dangerous than the sticky-out chainrings of a SWB recumbent.

Do they not have a chainring guards rule?  (Or at least non-acceptance of such obviously dangerous sharp bits at the bike check?)  Or is that supposedly covered by the recumbents not being in the mass start?
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Ian gaggiaport on August 27, 2019, 01:49:57 pm
Strava flyby.
Corners cut.
🧐🙄🤫
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: simonp on August 27, 2019, 01:57:07 pm
I saw a number of riders heading into Brest on the return route. For me that's a faster route, maybe shorter also?
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: vorsprung on August 27, 2019, 02:02:39 pm
I recall an illuminating conversation with a man in a Loudeac bar a couple of years ago, regarding his observations, as a commissaire, of stuff-that-went-on.

That's very cryptic.  Juicy detail please (if you can remember it)

That's not very likely is it?
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on August 27, 2019, 02:05:05 pm
We encountered a very confused Indian lady at a roundabout near Carhaix. She kept referring to the Brest control, even though she had no possibility of reaching there. As with many of the tired Indians she spoke in a combination of English and her home language. She was essentially making for the signposted fast route to Brest.

It occurred to us that her GPS might have taken her back along the return route when she joined it beyond Huelgoat. She may have thought she was heading to Brest.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: StevieB on August 27, 2019, 02:28:15 pm
Glad he was caught.

"Ride on for a long time
Sooner or later ACP'll cut you down"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJlN9jdQFSc

Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Ian H on August 27, 2019, 05:43:18 pm
I recall an illuminating conversation with a man in a Loudeac bar a couple of years ago, regarding his observations, as a commissaire, of stuff-that-went-on.

That's very cryptic.  Juicy detail please (if you can remember it)

That's not very likely is it?

Pah!    Now let me think...

It ranged from doping (which might be technically not illegal, not sure what ACP's rules are) to riding out of the control to a waiting camper-van and being whisked away into the distance.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Hofnar on August 27, 2019, 07:29:08 pm
bending rules rather than cheating - i've seen many bikes with aerobars clearly extending further than they should (i'm talking 5cm+). this would have saved me from tingly fingers - the price for sticking to the rules..

There is two ways legally round that one.

You can mount a rather rigid randonneur bag on the front that sticks out further and hold on to that one.

Or do like I did, mount a cross bar in between your tri bars and space them out a bit further so you get U shaped bars. You get to rest your wrists on the top bar to gain 10 cm or wrap your hands round them(one hand on top the other helps as wel) Completely legal and gets you a lot closer to normal tribar position. Surprisingly stable a well(did do a 600 try ou with just two of us)
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: PeterM on August 27, 2019, 07:29:44 pm

Pah!    Now let me think...

It ranged from doping (which might be technically not illegal, not sure what ACP's rules are) to riding out of the control to a waiting camper-van and being whisked away into the distance.

There were at least some doping controls this time, I believe
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: stefan on August 27, 2019, 07:43:37 pm

Pah!    Now let me think...

It ranged from doping (which might be technically not illegal, not sure what ACP's rules are) to riding out of the control to a waiting camper-van and being whisked away into the distance.

There were at least some doping controls this time, I believe

There was a guy outside the bike parking area in Carhaix merrily telling arriving riders to "turn left for doping control". It was only as I was leaving that I realised he was joking  ;D
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: FifeingEejit on August 27, 2019, 07:53:58 pm

Pah!    Now let me think...

It ranged from doping (which might be technically not illegal, not sure what ACP's rules are) to riding out of the control to a waiting camper-van and being whisked away into the distance.

There were at least some doping controls this time, I believe

There was a guy outside the bike parking area in Carhaix merrily telling arriving riders to "turn left for doping control". It was only as I was leaving that I realised he was joking  ;D

Ha Ha, he started that when I was getting ready to set off.
(Pointing to the control) Control, Control, Austrailien..... Control Doping....
He then kept it up after that


I did accidentally ask for a Coke in a Tabac on the retour.
The kid who asked what I was wanting didn't seem to know that Coke(ain) would be incredibly handy for staying awake and wired for this sort of thing.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Chrisheg on September 01, 2019, 02:13:29 am

We're quite happy to act as neutral support. It's like any activity, experience tells, and there are people who know that we'll have a basic medical kit and sunscreen. There are obviously boundaries we won't cross. It's one reason why we've never set out to follow individual riders, so as to avoid the temptation to help the story along.

We end up performing all manner of roles. Some will have spotted me directing riders next to the dodgy turn at the Bar Patton in St Meen le Grand on the return. That's also where we picked up our souvenir direction sign, an outbound Brest one, which we'd used as a prop for a shot of riders passing the Disney-style  Hotel de Ville.

Thanks again for giving me a USB cable by the Ambrieres-les-Vallees bridge on the way back in 2015. (-;
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Pepe on September 01, 2019, 08:26:27 pm

Pah!    Now let me think...

It ranged from doping (which might be technically not illegal, not sure what ACP's rules are) to riding out of the control to a waiting camper-van and being whisked away into the distance.

There were at least some doping controls this time, I believe

There was a guy outside the bike parking area in Carhaix merrily telling arriving riders to "turn left for doping control". It was only as I was leaving that I realised he was joking  ;D

Oh dear me how I laughed at this fella. Not so much at the doping pun. More at how amused he seemed to be about his hilarious Schtick  ;D
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: LMT on September 01, 2019, 09:02:16 pm
With respect to audax it's not cheating, cheating is sport in gaining an unfair advantage over your competitors and seeing as audax is non competitive then I can't see how it is cheating.

Rule breaking for sure though and more agro than it's worth imo.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Kim on September 01, 2019, 09:14:08 pm
I'd say not having to do the whole ride counts as an unfair advantage.  They've probably still got working neck/fingers/toes/arse/etc.   ;D
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 01, 2019, 10:11:48 pm
With respect to audax it's not cheating, cheating is sport in gaining an unfair advantage over your competitors and seeing as audax is non competitive then I can't see how it is cheating.

Rule breaking for sure though and more agro than it's worth imo.

PBP exists partly to demonstrate the suitability of machines and equipment. So we get machines that cost as much as a car, machines that invite people to throw bricks, nostalgia-tinged throwbacks, bikes with small wheels, and luggage that makes it difficult to access the stuff you need at 2am in the middle of nowhere. It's good to know that these can finish without nefarious intervention.

Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: zacklaws on September 01, 2019, 10:12:53 pm
I jokingly said at the end to some people who queried the odd finish at the end, that when you went under the finishing "kite" at Rambouillet on the cobblestones followed by the additional circuit of the courtyard, also on cobblestones, that tucked away somewhere was some officials who watched how much you grimaced on the cobblestones or had to stand up through having a sore backside that they could spot anyone who had cheated.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Ivo on September 01, 2019, 10:25:14 pm
I jokingly said at the end to some people who queried the odd finish at the end, that when you went under the finishing "kite" at Rambouillet on the cobblestones followed by the additional circuit of the courtyard, also on cobblestones, that tucked away somewhere was some officials who watched how much you grimaced on the cobblestones or had to stand up through having a sore backside that they could spot anyone who had cheated.

It's a bit similar to a remark I made when the site was presented, one of the stretches of cobbles could be used at the bikecheck to check if all items are securely fastened to the bike, let the rider ride over cobbles with a minimum time to complete it. Any item that falls off means you don't pass the bikecheck;).
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: jsabine on September 02, 2019, 12:25:16 am
I'd say not having to do the whole ride counts as an unfair advantage.  They've probably still got working neck/fingers/toes/arse/etc.   ;D

Too feckin' right. I definitely cheated.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Chrisheg on September 02, 2019, 01:43:20 am
I jokingly said at the end to some people who queried the odd finish at the end, that when you went under the finishing "kite" at Rambouillet on the cobblestones followed by the additional circuit of the courtyard, also on cobblestones, that tucked away somewhere was some officials who watched how much you grimaced on the cobblestones or had to stand up through having a sore backside that they could spot anyone who had cheated.

The finish was horrific. I now understand the meaning of debacle. I came in around 1300 and there were hundreds of oblivious people walking, riding, and driving on the road to the finish before and during the cobblestones, then the bonus gravel/cobble stretch to the timer, and the unguided trip to bike storage and the hike to the tent, before being jettisoned into the food line. It boggles my mind that someone though this was a good safe way to finish a 1200. It rivals the single male and female bathrooms at one of the controls, Tinteniac was it? Plenty for 6000 riders to pass through twice in 3 days.  I love the ride but sometimes it is very frustrating.  I miss the gymnasium in SQY.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: quixoticgeek on September 02, 2019, 12:11:39 pm
With respect to audax it's not cheating, cheating is sport in gaining an unfair advantage over your competitors and seeing as audax is non competitive then I can't see how it is cheating.

Rule breaking for sure though and more agro than it's worth imo.

IMHO, it devalues the efforts of those who do complete the whole ride in the required time limits (plus allowances for good Samaritans etc...)

Some people will have devoted a year or more of their life to complete this ride. It'll be the only one they ever do, the hardest thing they've ever done, and something they will cherish. Knowing others have done it with a electric motor, or with the assistance of a camper van, devalues those who completed it.

Doping is an interesting one, especially as many of us aren't actually aware of just what is on the WADA lists as both controlled substances and as banned. Took too much sudofed because you picked up a cold on the way to the start, could put you over the limit. With 6000 people doing the ride, I have no doubt that if you tested every single one of them you'd get at least some hits for controlled substances.

Motor doping seems a weird one, how do you actually carry enough battery for 1200km? Do you have a support crew bringing you recharged units?

Hitch hiking bits between controls and still claiming a finish is just taking the piss...

J
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Peter on September 02, 2019, 12:33:53 pm
Breaking the rules and expecting to be validated is one thing. 
if you actually intend to do it, you are depriving someone else of a chance to ride.
Even so, I don't see how cheating can be said to devalue the efforts of someone who doesn't cheat.  Piss them off, maybe, but probably not, generally speaking.  If I'd got round PBP fairly, I don't think I'd care at all about someone who used assistance.  I'll probably never meet them, especially since they will have gone home by the time I've recovered the powers of movement and speech.

Cheating may be a problem for the validating officials but I don't think it should make non-cheaters feel bad - rather the opposite.  In any case, when you tell a member of the public that you completed PBP, they are going to say, "What's PBP?" not "Ah, but some of them cheat, don't they?!"

Peter
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: The French Tandem on September 02, 2019, 01:08:58 pm
Motor doping seems a weird one, how do you actually carry enough battery for 1200km? Do you have a support crew bringing you recharged units?

A single battery small enough to be hidden under a velomobile fairing is probably enough, not for riding 1200km on the motor alone, but for giving you that small boost up the hills that will make a huge difference!

A
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Davef on September 02, 2019, 01:18:35 pm
Motor doping seems a weird one, how do you actually carry enough battery for 1200km? Do you have a support crew bringing you recharged units?

A single battery small enough to be hidden under a velomobile fairing is probably enough, not for riding 1200km on the motor alone, but for giving you that small boost up the hills that will make a huge difference!

A

A velomobile would probably be an ideal candidate for a bit of regenerative braking.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 02, 2019, 01:19:44 pm
You could say the opposite; that some people felt it necessary to use a motor, hitch a lift or whatever, shows all the more how impressive is the feat of riding round only using "human muscular effort".
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 02, 2019, 01:20:09 pm
Doping is an interesting one, especially as many of us aren't actually aware of just what is on the WADA lists as both controlled substances and as banned. Took too much sudofed because you picked up a cold on the way to the start, could put you over the limit. With 6000 people doing the ride, I have no doubt that if you tested every single one of them you'd get at least some hits for controlled substances.

Speak to Alain Baxter about that one, taking Vicks finished his career.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on September 02, 2019, 02:16:13 pm
With respect to audax it's not cheating, cheating is sport in gaining an unfair advantage over your competitors and seeing as audax is non competitive then I can't see how it is cheating.

Rule breaking for sure though and more agro than it's worth imo.

IMHO, it devalues the efforts of those who do complete the whole ride in the required time limits (plus allowances for good Samaritans etc...)

Some people will have devoted a year or more of their life to complete this ride. It'll be the only one they ever do, the hardest thing they've ever done, and something they will cherish. Knowing others have done it with a electric motor, or with the assistance of a camper van, devalues those who completed it.

Doping is an interesting one, especially as many of us aren't actually aware of just what is on the WADA lists as both controlled substances and as banned. Took too much sudofed because you picked up a cold on the way to the start, could put you over the limit. With 6000 people doing the ride, I have no doubt that if you tested every single one of them you'd get at least some hits for controlled substances.

Motor doping seems a weird one, how do you actually carry enough battery for 1200km? Do you have a support crew bringing you recharged units?

Hitch hiking bits between controls and still claiming a finish is just taking the piss...

J


I lean towards QG's opinion, mostly. Motorhomes at controls are fine; between controls, not. Cheating is 'not following the rules', regardless of whether you are talking about a sport, a game or a pastime. It sticks in the craw if others 'claim the glory' of an unearned finish.

I understand that some military folk look down on random people wearing unearned medals. What do you think about that situation Peter?

The ACP have a mechanism to forever refuse entries from individuals for any of their events for egregious behaviour. Using motor vehicles between controls to avoid riding the full distance but claiming validation would count as egregious behaviour IMHO.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Peter on September 02, 2019, 02:31:59 pm
With respect to audax it's not cheating, cheating is sport in gaining an unfair advantage over your competitors and seeing as audax is non competitive then I can't see how it is cheating.

Rule breaking for sure though and more agro than it's worth imo.

IMHO, it devalues the efforts of those who do complete the whole ride in the required time limits (plus allowances for good Samaritans etc...)

Some people will have devoted a year or more of their life to complete this ride. It'll be the only one they ever do, the hardest thing they've ever done, and something they will cherish. Knowing others have done it with a electric motor, or with the assistance of a camper van, devalues those who completed it.

Doping is an interesting one, especially as many of us aren't actually aware of just what is on the WADA lists as both controlled substances and as banned. Took too much sudofed because you picked up a cold on the way to the start, could put you over the limit. With 6000 people doing the ride, I have no doubt that if you tested every single one of them you'd get at least some hits for controlled substances.

Motor doping seems a weird one, how do you actually carry enough battery for 1200km? Do you have a support crew bringing you recharged units?

Hitch hiking bits between controls and still claiming a finish is just taking the piss...

J


I lean towards QG's opinion, mostly. Cheating is 'not following the rules', regardless of whether you are talking about a sport, a game or a pastime. It sticks in the craw if others 'claim the glory' of an unearned finish. I understand that some military folk take down on random people wearing unearned medals. What do you think about that situation Peter?

The ACP have a mechanism to forever refuse entries from individuals for any of their events for egregious behaviour. Using motor vehicles between controls to avoid riding the full distance but claiming validation would count as egregious behaviour IMHO.

Oh, yes D>  What I meant was that what others do wouldn't diminish my own satisfaction.    I don't like people wearing unearned medals and for the same reason I don't like people wearing world champion jerseys or even trade team jerseys (unless they are Molteno!).  And I certainly don't like sandpaper - but am not averse to assistance from incompetent umpires!

Peter

PS I can also understand that people who are "racing" (and many on PBP are racing to a certain extent) would feel irritated to appear to be further down the field than they might otherwise be.  But the clock is the real opponent.  Certainly I don't like dishonesty - in anything - but I'm a lesser mortal than many on here and would be absolutely thrilled to have got round - and, no, I wouldn't have cheated in order to finish.  I'm from the "leave me here in the gulch with a gun in every hand" school!

Peter
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on September 02, 2019, 02:35:57 pm
No arguments about sandpaper. Cheating pure and simple.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Peter on September 02, 2019, 02:40:41 pm
Ha!  So is raising the seam (or was it rubbing soil in?) a la Atherton!  "Pure cheating" - a concept for the philosophers?
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 02, 2019, 02:46:56 pm


A velomobile would probably be an ideal candidate for a bit of regenerative braking.

I'd be quite happy to see regenerative braking, and a motor. As long as the battery starts at 0 volts, the criteria for being powered solely by human effort is satisfied. A redesigned hub dynamo would work well. It would work especially well for timid descenders.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Kim on September 02, 2019, 03:23:51 pm


A velomobile would probably be an ideal candidate for a bit of regenerative braking.

I'd be quite happy to see regenerative braking, and a motor. As long as the battery starts at 0 volts, the criteria for being powered solely by human effort is satisfied. A redesigned hub dynamo would work well. It would work especially well for timid descenders.

Suitable gearless hub motors[1] are readily available, and the controllers that drive them can do regenerative braking simply by altering the phase of the switching (it is, in effect, a simple software modification), so most of them support it.  The real-world benefit is negligible[2] (you typically extend the battery range by a couple of percent), as on a bicycle there's so little kinetic energy to recover, and a limit to how much current you can dump into a small battery.

A velomobile might do better, as it's slightly heavier and loses less power to drag, but most multi-track recumbent people are leaning towards mid-drive motors for boring practical reasons, which are lighter, but upstream of the freewheel and can't regenerate.

Starting from 0V isn't practical with a lithium-ion battery (though you could of course integrate the current in and out to determine the net consumption), but might be with supercapacitors (which handily tolerate higher peak currents, too).  That'd be a pretty niche application - basically for competing in events with a "no stored energy" rule that are enlightened enough not to dismiss electrikery out of hand.  (I believe the HPV racing community - which would permit this sort of thing - have experimented with flywheels in the past, to conclude they aren't worth the weight.)


[1] Which are basically a bigger, three-phase version of a hub dynamo.
[2] Other than as an anti-lock braking system for mountain bikes.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: frankly frankie on September 02, 2019, 06:46:15 pm
"Pure cheating" - a concept for the philosophers?

In "pure" terms I can't see any objection to meeting a supporter - either by arrangement or by chance, either a supporter you know or one you don't - at any intermediate point between controls.  It's just that some of those cases are against the rules, sometimes. (Meeting a supporter you don't know, by chance, and being plied with cider, isn't.)  You can break the rules and still ride all of the distance under your own steam.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: simonp on September 02, 2019, 07:17:02 pm
Efficiency of small motor/generators is, AIUI much lower than large ones - I'm not convinced a purely regenerative approach would be worthwhile for the weight penalty.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 02, 2019, 07:23:30 pm
"Pure cheating" - a concept for the philosophers?

In "pure" terms I can't see any objection to meeting a supporter - either by arrangement or by chance, either a supporter you know or one you don't - at any intermediate point between controls.  It's just that some of those cases are against the rules, sometimes. (Meeting a supporter you don't know, by chance, and being plied with cider, isn't.)  You can break the rules and still ride all of the distance under your own steam.

What would meeting a supporter you do happen to know who just happens to have enough "stuff" to assist more than just you even though they are only roadside for say 1 hour be?
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Kim on September 02, 2019, 07:34:55 pm
Efficiency of small motor/generators is, AIUI much lower than large ones - I'm not convinced a purely regenerative approach would be worthwhile for the weight penalty.

If I had a properly equipped shed, a budget, mechnical skills and copious free time, I quite like the idea of building a cycle (probably a trike) with a purely electric drivetrain to lose BHPC races on.  KERS would be a logical step along the way.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: The French Tandem on September 03, 2019, 06:50:36 am
What would meeting a supporter you do happen to know who just happens to have enough "stuff" to assist more than just you even though they are only roadside for say 1 hour be?

As long as your supporter gives "stuff" to anyone who asks, even during only 1 hour, it falls into the category "neutral assistance". There is no more cheating than with locals handing out free food/coffee.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Davef on September 03, 2019, 07:45:05 am
Efficiency of small motor/generators is, AIUI much lower than large ones - I'm not convinced a purely regenerative approach would be worthwhile for the weight penalty.
I believe the regenerative set ups on expensive ebikes are about 50% efficient. Imagine empty battery, a downhill then matching up hill scenario with traffic lights at the bottom. If you are unlucky enough to hit red, then you still get half way up the other side without pedalling though you still have the weight of two full bidons to lug up the remaining half of the uphill.


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Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 03, 2019, 07:56:09 am
What would meeting a supporter you do happen to know who just happens to have enough "stuff" to assist more than just you even though they are only roadside for say 1 hour be?

As long as your supporter gives "stuff" to anyone who asks, even during only 1 hour, it falls into the category "neutral assistance". There is no more cheating than with locals handing out free food/coffee.

The assembly of free assistance beside the mast at the Roc consisted of unregistered support vehicles, and local clubs. CRQC Quimper seemed to be the largest contingent. Technically they were on the route, but would have accessed the area from the road that joins at the roundabout just before.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Davef on September 03, 2019, 08:16:21 am
What would meeting a supporter you do happen to know who just happens to have enough "stuff" to assist more than just you even though they are only roadside for say 1 hour be?

As long as your supporter gives "stuff" to anyone who asks, even during only 1 hour, it falls into the category "neutral assistance". There is no more cheating than with locals handing out free food/coffee.

The assembly of free assistance beside the mast at the Roc consisted of unregistered support vehicles, and local clubs. CRQ Quimper seemed to be the largest contingent. Technically they were on the route, but would have accessed the area from the road that joins at the roundabout just before.
I guess Quimper vans were allowed then.


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Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Karla on September 03, 2019, 08:59:21 am
With respect to audax it's not cheating, cheating is sport in gaining an unfair advantage over your competitors and seeing as audax is non competitive then I can't see how it is cheating.

Rule breaking for sure though and more agro than it's worth imo.

IMHO, it devalues the efforts of those who do complete the whole ride in the required time limits (plus allowances for good Samaritans etc...)

Some people will have devoted a year or more of their life to complete this ride. It'll be the only one they ever do, the hardest thing they've ever done, and something they will cherish. Knowing others have done it with a electric motor, or with the assistance of a camper van, devalues those who completed it.

Doping is an interesting one, especially as many of us aren't actually aware of just what is on the WADA lists as both controlled substances and as banned. Took too much sudofed because you picked up a cold on the way to the start, could put you over the limit. With 6000 people doing the ride, I have no doubt that if you tested every single one of them you'd get at least some hits for controlled substances.

Motor doping seems a weird one, how do you actually carry enough battery for 1200km? Do you have a support crew bringing you recharged units?

Hitch hiking bits between controls and still claiming a finish is just taking the piss...

J


I lean towards QG's opinion, mostly. Cheating is 'not following the rules', regardless of whether you are talking about a sport, a game or a pastime. It sticks in the craw if others 'claim the glory' of an unearned finish. I understand that some military folk take down on random people wearing unearned medals. What do you think about that situation Peter?

The ACP have a mechanism to forever refuse entries from individuals for any of their events for egregious behaviour. Using motor vehicles between controls to avoid riding the full distance but claiming validation would count as egregious behaviour IMHO.

Oh, yes D>  What I meant was that what others do wouldn't diminish my own satisfaction.    I don't like people wearing unearned medals and for the same reason I don't like people wearing world champion jerseys or even trade team jerseys (unless they are Molteno!).  And I certainly don't like sandpaper - but am not averse to assistance from incompetent umpires!

Peter

PS I can also understand that people who are "racing" (and many on PBP are racing to a certain extent) would feel irritated to appear to be further down the field than they might otherwise be.  But the clock is the real opponent.  Certainly I don't like dishonesty - in anything - but I'm a lesser mortal than many on here and would be absolutely thrilled to have got round - and, no, I wouldn't have cheated in order to finish.  I'm from the "leave me here in the gulch with a gun in every hand" school!

Peter

I disagree.  The club you join by finishing (or by finishing in under a certain time) is less prestigious if it is larger, and if fewer people have failed.  Cheaters artificially inflating the size of that group is something that diminishes your achievement, and about which every honest finisher can feel rightly aggrieved.

Hillary and Tenzing would not be so well remembered if ten other people had climbed Everest first, using secret hidden jetpacks.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 03, 2019, 09:19:32 am
What would meeting a supporter you do happen to know who just happens to have enough "stuff" to assist more than just you even though they are only roadside for say 1 hour be?

As long as your supporter gives "stuff" to anyone who asks, even during only 1 hour, it falls into the category "neutral assistance". There is no more cheating than with locals handing out free food/coffee.

The assembly of free assistance beside the mast at the Roc consisted of unregistered support vehicles, and local clubs. CRQC Quimper seemed to be the largest contingent. Technically they were on the route, but would have accessed the area from the road that joins at the roundabout just before.
I guess Quimper vans were allowed then.


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It's an interesting area. The ANEC motorcycle team have helped at PBP many times, but their role is to help at races in Normandy principally. Marshals from FF Velo are drawn from cyclotouriste clubs, mainly from along the route, so they know the background, and aren't going to get too officious. So the enforcement is pragmatic. There's an official film that shows support at the Roc. Anyone who has been to the Semaine Federale a lot is able to recognise French club shirts.

https://youtu.be/-Js_r8owls0?t=135
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Davef on September 03, 2019, 09:29:16 am
... so over 30% fail rate.


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Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Tim Hall on September 03, 2019, 09:33:19 am

The assembly of free assistance beside the mast at the Roc consisted of unregistered support vehicles, and local clubs. CRQ Quimper seemed to be the largest contingent. Technically they were on the route, but would have accessed the area from the road that joins at the roundabout just before.
I guess Quimper vans were allowed then.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
<Applause>
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 03, 2019, 09:43:43 am
The club you join by finishing (or by finishing in under a certain time) is less prestigious if it is larger, and if fewer people have failed.  Cheaters artificially inflating the size of that group is something that diminishes your achievement, and about which every honest finisher can feel rightly aggrieved.
That also makes sense, at least for those entrants who are concerned by prestige having their achievement judged by others, which I guess is quite a lot of people (and kind of fits with the old "pretending not to race" line).
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: The French Tandem on September 03, 2019, 10:04:27 am
Along the line of all sorts of cheating, I browsed through the photo album posted by Ivo, and I spotted someone with a large solar panel on the bar bag. Can't say whether the solar panel was backfeeding a dynohub but it must be possible.

Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 03, 2019, 10:14:38 am
There are three groups for a reason. The 80 is equivalent to Sportive, 84 is specifically Randonneurs, and 90 hours specifically Touristes.

The only group that's constantly observed are the lead vedettes. Everyone else is on trust for a lot of the time.

The racing element of PBP has been comprehensively undermined by the changes to the start and finish. You can now give yourself a time advantage by starting at the back of your group, and working your way up to the motorbikes before they peel off after St Leger.

The first three back consisted of one A rider and two B riders. The B riders automatically had around 15 minutes on the A rider. That group had worked together since at least before Loudeac, and the came over the line together. But it's not clear which of the three separate finishes counts. It was largely irrelevant, as the velomobile from the F group came in a minute later.

A cheating story is all that someone who set out to report a race is left with. The real losers are those who set out to report on the adventure racer/ bikepacking aspect of PBP. I've got a bit of that, as a chance encounter led to an interview with Ana Orenz. Her story ticks a lot of the current boxes, but as my partner is a PBP Ancienne and a Hyper-Randonneuse, it's a bit less impressive to me.

Heather also ran an LEL control five times, so we have previously spent a lot of time looking at control layout and choke-points. She's not running a control in 2021, so we spent a lot less time in them. A knowledge of control pitfalls will save you a lot more time than a bit of cheating will. Experience and situational awareness are key attributes, and that's where support is very useful.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Kim on September 03, 2019, 11:59:51 am
Along the line of all sorts of cheating, I browsed through the photo album posted by Ivo, and I spotted someone with a large solar panel on the bar bag. Can't say whether the solar panel was backfeeding a dynohub but it must be possible.

A back of the envelope calculation should put you at ease.

A solar panel you can carry on an upwrong's barbag isn't large enough to give you much more than maybe 20W.  De-rate that for weather and because it's mostly pointing in the wrong direction.  Factor in efficiency losses.  Then add the aerodynamic drag and the effect of the extra weight.  (I suppose you *could* drive a hub dynamo if you added appropriate sensors somewhere and didn't need it to be self-starting.  You'd have to keep the power level in the low tens of watts so you didn't burn it out, and I expect the efficiency would be fairly poor.)

Overall gains would be of the order of zipping up your jacket.  Pretty safe to say it would have been powering a bike light or smartphone or something, for which it is probably quite competitive with dynamo charging, if less reliable.

A velomobile covered in photovoltaics is approaching the power levels needed to usefully[1] power a velomobile.  I think this is something we're going to see more of in coming years, with recent improvements in flexible photovoltaics.  But it's hardly subtle.


[1] Though not at 100% duty cycle.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 03, 2019, 12:39:07 pm
Overall gains would be of the order of zipping up your jacket. 
But it's not about the level of gains, it's the principle. If it were powering a hub, which seems very unlikely.

Quote
A velomobile covered in photovoltaics is approaching the power levels needed to usefully[1] power a velomobile.  I think this is something we're going to see more of in coming years, with recent improvements in flexible photovoltaics.  But it's hardly subtle.


[1] Though not at 100% duty cycle.
Sounds like a great move for something like an e-cargo-mobile.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Kim on September 03, 2019, 12:45:17 pm
Overall gains would be of the order of zipping up your jacket. 
But it's not about the level of gains, it's the principle. If it were powering a hub, which seems very unlikely.

Oh, agreed.  Just because it's a waste of time doesn't mean it's not breaking the rules.

Presumably using the solar panel as a sail is a grey area.  "I'm just charging my iPhone, guv."  (Would require doubly-cooperative weather, of course.)
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Karla on September 03, 2019, 01:08:32 pm
Along the line of all sorts of cheating, I browsed through the photo album posted by Ivo, and I spotted someone with a large solar panel on the bar bag. Can't say whether the solar panel was backfeeding a dynohub but it must be possible.

A back of the envelope calculation should put you at ease.

A solar panel you can carry on an upwrong's barbag isn't large enough to give you much more than maybe 20W.  De-rate that for weather and because it's mostly pointing in the wrong direction.  Factor in efficiency losses.  Then add the aerodynamic drag and the effect of the extra weight.  (I suppose you *could* drive a hub dynamo if you added appropriate sensors somewhere and didn't need it to be self-starting.  You'd have to keep the power level in the low tens of watts so you didn't burn it out, and I expect the efficiency would be fairly poor.)

Overall gains would be of the order of zipping up your jacket.  Pretty safe to say it would have been powering a bike light or smartphone or something, for which it is probably quite competitive with dynamo charging, if less reliable.

A velomobile covered in photovoltaics is approaching the power levels needed to usefully[1] power a velomobile.  I think this is something we're going to see more of in coming years, with recent improvements in flexible photovoltaics.  But it's hardly subtle.


[1] Though not at 100% duty cycle.

Let's see, for a 20 W max panel power, what are you left with to drive with?

Night time uselessness: Down to 11-12 W
Cloud losses: Down to 8 W
Shadowing and pointing the wrong way losses: Down to 3 W
Efficiency losses (both electrical and mechanical) in the whole system from panel to tyre: 1 W

That's a pretty faffy way to gain a watt.  I reckon zipping up your jacket would be considerably more effective, as well as easier.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 03, 2019, 01:14:56 pm
On zipping up jackets, there was much noise in these hallowed pages a few years ago when Jan Heine proved (for JH values of proof) that there is more drag from a saddle bag than a bar bag of equivalent size. How dare he cast aspersions on the choice of every proper British randonneur! While in the very same article he'd said the difference was less than that from changing a flappy jacket for something sleeker.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on September 03, 2019, 01:28:06 pm
Mr Heine's assertion is not true if the rider chooses a saddlebag without side pockets, as I usually do. The extra drag was entirely the result of the saddlebag being wider than the rider's thighs/ hips. A pocketless Carradice is narrower than my meaty thighs and childbearing hips (I blame my mother...).
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Kim on September 03, 2019, 01:30:07 pm
There's probably an actual benefit if the bag has a bit of taper to it.  But that's heading into sensible non-dangly luggage, if not beard and sandals aerodynamic fairings territory.

None of which is cheating in this context.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Greenbank on September 03, 2019, 01:53:35 pm
Each to their own and all that but riding with a bar bag would slow me down considerably as I wretched every time I looked at it.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 03, 2019, 02:02:02 pm
I rather like my bar bag. I like being able to open and close it as I ride. Though I don't like its bracket, which is clumpy, heavy and ugly. I was briefly tempted by one of those fancy bracketless and flip-top-able bar bags they featured in the We are Cycling UK Gazette recently, but fortunately the importers had sold out, which saved me £90.  :o

Anyway, obviously having bar bag and saddle bag together would cancel each other out aerodynamically, while zipping up your jacket hides the battery for the electric motor. The train ticket is a jersey pocket and the syringe of EPO in the luggage, though I'm not sure whether front or back.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Phil W on September 03, 2019, 02:08:54 pm
It is cheating using a bar bag, who knew?
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Kim on September 03, 2019, 02:36:14 pm
Yeahbut it's not a race, so there's no tactical advantage in causing other riders to retch.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 03, 2019, 02:56:18 pm
Unless it diminishes the pool of finishers and thereby inflates the prestige of your achievement.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 03, 2019, 03:50:11 pm
Mr Heine's assertion is not true if the rider chooses a saddlebag without side pockets, as I usually do. The extra drag was entirely the result of the saddlebag being wider than the rider's thighs/ hips. A pocketless Carradice is narrower than my meaty thighs and childbearing hips (I blame my mother...).

If you use one of those bike packing bags, what effect the cost of time spent digging stuff that's packed deeper in the bag due to having to haul everything else out over the ease of organization in a wide carradice style bag?

This is dynamo vs swapping AA batteries Vs heavy battery pack territory isn't it...
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Karla on September 03, 2019, 04:02:09 pm
Jan Heine saying something is all the motivation you need to do the exact opposite.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: rob on September 03, 2019, 04:12:56 pm
Mr Heine's assertion is not true if the rider chooses a saddlebag without side pockets, as I usually do. The extra drag was entirely the result of the saddlebag being wider than the rider's thighs/ hips. A pocketless Carradice is narrower than my meaty thighs and childbearing hips (I blame my mother...).

If you use one of those bike packing bags, what effect the cost of time spent digging stuff that's packed deeper in the bag due to having to haul everything else out over the ease of organization in a wide carradice style bag?

This is dynamo vs swapping AA batteries Vs heavy battery pack territory isn't it...

I put 3 bags within my bag :-

- clothes (also use as a pillow)
- bonk rations
- toiletries

Tools and spares were right at the bottom/front.

Stop.   Remove required internal bags and carry into control.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: mattc on September 03, 2019, 06:39:15 pm
I'm not surprised we got into a debate about "bike-packing" luggage within 4 pages;
but I AM surprised that it was rob who got sucked into it.

 :-*
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Phil W on September 03, 2019, 06:50:52 pm
Yeahbut it's not a race, so there's no tactical advantage in causing other riders to retch.

It reduces the queues for food and beds at the controls, allowing you to breeze through them or have more time to sleep. Definite advantages.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 03, 2019, 06:55:30 pm
PBP 2023: Heroic British rider is lone finisher after 9,999 entrants retire with dysentery.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: rob on September 03, 2019, 07:00:44 pm
I'm not surprised we got into a debate about "bike-packing" luggage within 4 pages;
but I AM surprised that it was rob who got sucked into it.

 :-*

What can I say ?  I’m a convert.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Phil W on September 03, 2019, 07:43:13 pm
PBP 2023: Heroic British rider is lone finisher after 9,999 entrants retire with dysentery.

They survived on 543 jam butties, stored in their 80 litre panniers, and bar bag.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on September 03, 2019, 08:07:01 pm
Was it a bar bag or a solar-powered cool bag?
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: frankly frankie on September 04, 2019, 11:10:09 am
Efficiency of small motor/generators is, AIUI much lower than large ones - I'm not convinced a purely regenerative approach would be worthwhile for the weight penalty.
I believe the regenerative set ups on expensive ebikes are about 50% efficient. Imagine empty battery, a downhill then matching up hill scenario with traffic lights at the bottom. If you are unlucky enough to hit red, then you still get half way up the other side without pedalling though you still have the weight of two full bidons to lug up the remaining half of the uphill.

The psychological advantage might outweigh the physical disadvantage.  Hard to quantify.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 04, 2019, 11:33:49 am
Cheating is a positive psychological boost. It's a way of saying that you're a contender. It's usually described as 'gamesmanship'.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: mattc on September 04, 2019, 06:29:51 pm
I'm not surprised we got into a debate about "bike-packing" luggage within 4 pages;
but I AM surprised that it was rob who got sucked into it.

 :-*

What can I say ?  I’m a convert.
... who is slipping into the evangelist role, as seems the norm ...
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: mattc on September 04, 2019, 06:34:12 pm
Quote
With respect to audax it's not cheating, cheating is sport in gaining an unfair advantage over your competitors and seeing as audax is non competitive then I can't see how it is cheating.
...<snip>


I disagree.  The club you join by finishing (or by finishing in under a certain time) is less prestigious if it is larger, and if fewer people have failed.  Cheaters artificially inflating the size of that group is something that diminishes your achievement, and about which every honest finisher can feel rightly aggrieved.

Hillary and Tenzing would not be so well remembered if ten other people had climbed Everest first, using secret hidden jetpacks.
I'm with karla on this.

To be clear, I don't worry about this very much (because hardly anyone cheats, and hardly anyone knows what PBP is); but if you asked me the simple question:
"Why does cheating matter?",
I would point them to the post above.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: LMT on September 04, 2019, 06:58:35 pm
With respect to audax it's not cheating, cheating is sport in gaining an unfair advantage over your competitors and seeing as audax is non competitive then I can't see how it is cheating.

Rule breaking for sure though and more agro than it's worth imo.

PBP exists partly to demonstrate the suitability of machines and equipment. So we get machines that cost as much as a car, machines that invite people to throw bricks, nostalgia-tinged throwbacks, bikes with small wheels, and luggage that makes it difficult to access the stuff you need at 2am in the middle of nowhere. It's good to know that these can finish without nefarious intervention.

The above is a moot point for two reasons.

Firstly PBP is hardly challenging, the metres climbed per distance for sure you can describe the course as undulating but by no means it is difficult and therefore cannot be used as a measure for a specific HPV. Taking a HPV around the Mille du Sud for example is a far better example of what a specific type of HPV can do.

Secondly there are so many of the same time of HPV's used in PBP as you describe above. Just because some 70 year old used an electric motor in a velo does not mean that a velo is not good for PBP, especially when others would and did complete said ride with one of the riders being first back.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 04, 2019, 07:57:13 pm
PBP is demanding for velomobiles because of the distance, and the sustained high speeds. That seems to expose some of the shortcomings in the steering mechanisms. The other main complaint is aerodynamic instability in crosswinds.

The first interview I did of a velomobile pilot was Hans Wessels, who did 65.27 hours in 2003. I got a couple of interviews this time, and we put two velomobile related interviews into the 2015 film. Just because the rider starts in a velomobile doesn't mean they'll finish in one.

The early PBPs put seals on the machines, as the event was as much a test of the machine as the rider. I'd love to see Hajo's GPS data. Is it on Strava?

https://vimeo.com/316068283
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: LMT on September 04, 2019, 08:50:10 pm
PBP is demanding for velomobiles because of the distance, and the sustained high speeds. That seems to expose some of the shortcomings in the steering mechanisms. The other main complaint is aerodynamic instability in crosswinds.

The first interview I did of a velomobile pilot was Hans Wessels, who did 65.27 hours in 2003. I got a couple of interviews this time, and we put two velomobile related interviews into the 2015 film. Just because the rider starts in a velomobile doesn't mean they'll finish in one.

The early PBPs put seals on the machines, as the event was as much a test of the machine as the rider. I'd love to see Hajo's GPS data. Is it on Strava?

https://vimeo.com/316068283

You're not getting it, HPV's don't ride themselves - people do. If someone wishes to install a motor this is a reflection on them - not on the HPV.


And PBP is demanding for velomobiles? First back on PBP would suggest otherwise - as I said it down to the rider and not the HPV.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: hagg on September 04, 2019, 08:53:10 pm
Who is the first real unsupported randonneur in PBP by carrying all food and liquid within. And even better to carry all "waste" to finish as it have do e.g. in North Pole adventure. Everything else is cheating?
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Auntie Helen on September 04, 2019, 09:10:03 pm
PBP is demanding for velomobiles because of the distance, and the sustained high speeds. That seems to expose some of the shortcomings in the steering mechanisms. The other main complaint is aerodynamic instability in crosswinds.

The early PBPs put seals on the machines, as the event was as much a test of the machine as the rider. I'd love to see Hajo's GPS data. Is it on Strava?
i would say PBP is less demanding for velomobiles than normal bikes because of the distance. No arse issues, Shermers neck, numb fingers. No aerodynamic issues in crosswinds on Milans (some rode it) although the DF that Hajo rode can be more affected by side winds. But he chose his DF rather than Milan for PBP so obviously thought it was the overall better choice.

I have no idea what shortcomings on steering mechanisms you are referring to as I think only the Evo series are known to be twitchy and I don’t think any of those rode it.

Hajo is on Strava as Jo Stein, here is his Strava: https://www.strava.com/activities/2635262982
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: rob on September 04, 2019, 10:13:55 pm
I'm not surprised we got into a debate about "bike-packing" luggage within 4 pages;
but I AM surprised that it was rob who got sucked into it.

 :-*

What can I say ?  I’m a convert.
... who is slipping into the evangelist role, as seems the norm ...

Looking back at the photos from my 6 PBPs and it goes :-

Saddlebag
Rack pack
Rack pack
Rack pack
Saddlebag
Bikepacking wedge bag

I think I was just pointing out that the bikepacking bags are not as impractical as may be being made out, provided you pack correctly.  Of course the same could be said of any type of luggage.

What has been a game changer for me has been top tube bags and fuel pods on the bars, which make eating on the move much more manageable.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: rob on September 04, 2019, 10:16:31 pm

Firstly PBP is hardly challenging.....


I think the DNF rate doesn’t agree with you.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on September 04, 2019, 10:26:15 pm
How many PBPs have you ridden LMT? How many other 1200(+)s have you ridden to compare PBP to?

I don’t think I’ve ridden an unchallenging 1200, though such a rare beast may exist somewhere in the world. Of course, some long brevets are tougher than PBP.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: simonp on September 04, 2019, 10:40:13 pm
I would say I’ve found every PBP challenging except for 2011. I did a lot of miles in 2010 and I was likely at my strongest. Doing 80h the last two times made it much harder. This year more so due to lack of miles. If I enter 2023 I will be stopping the rowing (assuming I’m still doing that) much earlier to give it the proper focus.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: jsabine on September 04, 2019, 11:48:36 pm
I think (from my rather limited experience) it would probably be fair to say that PBP is (or at least has the potential to be) a relatively straightforward 1200, as 1200s go. But 1200km is a bloody long way and is intrinsically challenging.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Tomsk on September 05, 2019, 07:36:37 am
No ... Shermers neck,

Though, I did see a recumbentist with 'Reverse Shermers' riding one-handed, while supporting his head from the back with the other. Seat too laid back presumably? 1200km is going to find your weaknesses, in body or machine [or mind]. My middle left finger is still sore, and I'm on a second course of antibiotics.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 05, 2019, 09:15:18 am
PBP is demanding for velomobiles because of the distance, and the sustained high speeds. That seems to expose some of the shortcomings in the steering mechanisms. The other main complaint is aerodynamic instability in crosswinds.

The first interview I did of a velomobile pilot was Hans Wessels, who did 65.27 hours in 2003. I got a couple of interviews this time, and we put two velomobile related interviews into the 2015 film. Just because the rider starts in a velomobile doesn't mean they'll finish in one.

The early PBPs put seals on the machines, as the event was as much a test of the machine as the rider. I'd love to see Hajo's GPS data. Is it on Strava?

https://vimeo.com/316068283

You're not getting it, HPV's don't ride themselves - people do. If someone wishes to install a motor this is a reflection on them - not on the HPV.


And PBP is demanding for velomobiles? First back on PBP would suggest otherwise - as I said it down to the rider and not the HPV.

We do like to get interviews as close to the finish line as possible. That way there's no filtering.

In these two instances we have a report of steering component failure, and of a machine that was only received immediately prior to the event, without an opportunity for a 'shakedown'.

I've just been refurbishing my wood chipper, a machine that produces a lot of vibration. That tends to loosen linkages, and causes fractures where cowlings are attached to the main chassis. Those cowlings also obscure components which are subject to wear, but also protect those components. The standard machine used on PBP has certain vulnerabilities. The first rider we saw with a major problem had a broken derailleur, caused by another rider clipping it.

So beyond the basic issue of increased mass, and improved aerodynamics, a velomobile has a more complex interaction with vibration, and poor access to key components. So completion of an SR series, and PBP, provides reassurance that the machine is capable and reliable.

The run of the mill bicycle is an assemblage of generic components. You could take most of the bits off one 700c fast tourer and swap them with another. HPVs are more brand specific, so there's more benefit from getting your product being seen to succeed.

Comparing the average speeds of the lead group and Hajo over the last three stages is interesting. The group of three had a lead at Villaines, which was gradually eroded by Hajo. That's consistent with my memories of the 2011 course, with lots of flat sections, where high speed cruising is possible.

But I didn't ride this edition, so I don't know what the new route feels like. The final 25 km of the old parcours was very HPV unfriendly, with lots of hills and junctions, especially the pre-2015 version. There's also the question of the diversion after Dreux, about which I've had poor reports.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: eddum on September 05, 2019, 09:33:44 am
This has reminded me of the sad sight we saw at night ... maybe Monday night which would mean after Carhaix ?.. and before the famous Huelgoat...   A velomobile being strapped onto a low loader recovery truck  :-[

It was red.... I thought maybe the Ferrararri but not sure.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: yanto on September 05, 2019, 11:00:10 am
PBP is demanding for velomobiles because of the distance, and the sustained high speeds. That seems to expose some of the shortcomings in the steering mechanisms. The other main complaint is aerodynamic instability in crosswinds.

The first interview I did of a velomobile pilot was Hans Wessels, who did 65.27 hours in 2003. I got a couple of interviews this time, and we put two velomobile related interviews into the 2015 film. Just because the rider starts in a velomobile doesn't mean they'll finish in one.

The early PBPs put seals on the machines, as the event was as much a test of the machine as the rider. I'd love to see Hajo's GPS data. Is it on Strava?

https://vimeo.com/316068283

You're not getting it, HPV's don't ride themselves - people do. If someone wishes to install a motor this is a reflection on them - not on the HPV.


And PBP is demanding for velomobiles? First back on PBP would suggest otherwise - as I said it down to the rider and not the HPV.

We do like to get interviews as close to the finish line as possible. That way there's no filtering.

In these two instances we have a report of steering component failure, and of a machine that was only received immediately prior to the event, without an opportunity for a 'shakedown'.

I've just been refurbishing my wood chipper, a machine that produces a lot of vibration. That tends to loosen linkages, and causes fractures where cowlings are attached to the main chassis. Those cowlings also obscure components which are subject to wear, but also protect those components. The standard machine used on PBP has certain vulnerabilities. The first rider we saw with a major problem had a broken derailleur, caused by another rider clipping it.

So beyond the basic issue of increased mass, and improved aerodynamics, a velomobile has a more complex interaction with vibration, and poor access to key components. So completion of an SR series, and PBP, provides reassurance that the machine is capable and reliable.

The run of the mill bicycle is an assemblage of generic components. You could take most of the bits off one 700c fast tourer and swap them with another. HPVs are more brand specific, so there's more benefit from getting your product being seen to succeed.

Comparing the average speeds of the lead group and Hajo over the last three stages is interesting. The group of three had a lead at Villaines, which was gradually eroded by Hajo. That's consistent with my memories of the 2011 course, with lots of flat sections, where high speed cruising is possible.

But I didn't ride this edition, so I don't know what the new route feels like. The final 25 km of the old parcours was very HPV unfriendly, with lots of hills and junctions, especially the pre-2015 version. There's also the question of the diversion after Dreux, about which I've had poor reports.

We have strayed way off topic here. However, I think you have a few misconceptions on Velomobiles;

All models are of monocoque construction so have no frames or chassis (bar two weird Australian ones which are crap and won't be seen doing any serious rides) so vibration has no effect, it could be argued that vibration is less than most road bikes because of full suspension although NVH tests would need to carried out to verify, so as long as appropriate fasteners and/or thread locks are used nothing comes loose, certainly in 10 years of velomobile riding I've never experienced a loose fitting through vibration, I would like to know who and which machine suffered the steering failure as I don't recall reading about it, and we are a small close knit community that chatter and bicker like fisherman's wives! If it was Hans as you refer to earlier I can find out more although I thought he normally rode a recumbent bike. If it was Bill Russell in 2015 then yes he had many mechanical problems with a machine that had supposedly been tested and set up by a French dealer, although he still finished in time.

Agreed access to components can be more difficult than an ordinary bike but it was assembled by man so can be disassembled, although most modern designs have access panels so no more difficult than an ordinary bike.

As for components, the gear train is standard bike components so no problems there and they last much longer, I'm still running the same cassette and brake pads from new (nearly 5 years and over 25k miles). Components such as front suspension are pretty much identical between all European manufacturers and are robust, just wear and tear over many thousands of Km's requires any replacement of parts although I agree you can't get them in your local cycle shop.

I have to say all the mechanical problems I've had bar one were with off the shelf bicycle components, although I've never been stranded by any of them, unlike I have been with road bikes in the past (seat post snapping, downtube fracture, fork crown failure).

One aspect you have got correct is cross wind effect, a large surface area to relatively low mass does equate to movement, sometimes violent, but with experience you learn to let it happen and not try to resist (unless heading for something damaging), although some models are more prone than others, mine for instance is fairly lively in crosswinds although fitting spats or "pants" as they are commonly referred to over the front wheel openings reduces this enormously at the cost of reduced steering lock, which after seeing some of the tortuous routes into controls I'm glad I took mine off.

PS I like to think we all ride HPV's (unless you strap an electric motor to it (got this back on topic)), derivatives of which are bicycle, tricycle, ElliptiGo, velomobile etc.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Kim on September 05, 2019, 01:07:35 pm
No ... Shermers neck,

Though, I did see a recumbentist with 'Reverse Shermers' riding one-handed, while supporting his head from the back with the other. Seat too laid back presumably?

Seems likely.  A very reclined racing position is fantastically aero without significantly reducing comfort, but just like an upright you're doing unnatural things with your neck in order to just-about see where you're going.  The recumbent has the advantage that it's practical to fit a head/neck rest and not rely on muscle tension alone[1], but it's still going to be unpleasant if you keep it up for more than a few hours.

Velomobiles can put the rider's neck in a more neutral position, without compromising the aerodynamics the way a touring recumbent geometry would.


[1] IME the usefulness of a head support is proportional to the quality of the road surface, and decreases with speed.  If you're being shaken around by crappy tarmac, you generally want to use your neck muscles to decouple the rattle from your eyes/teeth/BRANEZ.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Jedrik on September 05, 2019, 04:00:31 pm
This has reminded me of the sad sight we saw at night ... maybe Monday night which would mean after Carhaix ?.. and before the famous Huelgoat...   A velomobile being strapped onto a low loader recovery truck  :-[

It was red.... I thought maybe the Ferrararri but not sure.
F103? He scratched due to drive train troubles he couldn't sort out. No cheating involved.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Jedrik on September 05, 2019, 04:27:24 pm
No ... Shermers neck,

Though, I did see a recumbentist with 'Reverse Shermers' riding one-handed, while supporting his head from the back with the other.
I can't know why that recumbentist did that. He might have had a very reclined seat and no headrest, though I doubt it. I occasionally do this - or leave a hand dangling - because I can. You see, you don't need to hang on to your handle bar with both hands. There is no power transfer or balancing or whatever to be had from that. You can ride your heart out with a hand behind your head like you'd sit in front of your tv. Unless you ride a MBB recumbent (direct front wheel drive). Then you do it to bragg, although hardly anyone gets it.  :-\
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 05, 2019, 07:52:38 pm
I chatted to Bill Russell and Yanto at the finish. Yanto has an interesting turtleneck suntan going on, while we compare PBP to LEL.

https://vimeo.com/358135279
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: eddum on September 06, 2019, 08:54:15 am
This has reminded me of the sad sight we saw at night ... maybe Monday night which would mean after Carhaix ?.. and before the famous Huelgoat...   A velomobile being strapped onto a low loader recovery truck  :-[

It was red.... I thought maybe the Ferrararri but not sure.
F103? He scratched due to drive train troubles he couldn't sort out. No cheating involved.

Wasn't saying he did... as usual this thread seems to have evolved a long way from the OP  ;D
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 06, 2019, 09:31:50 am
... as usual this thread seems to have evolved a long way from the OP  ;D

Don't worry, the various threads can be integrated.

We had an interesting time navigating to follow PBP 2019 without using the route. The route is impossible in a car, as it's hard to average more than 40kph because of all the cyclists. However, a GPS will put you on the route if it's set to avoid motorways. But the blanket 50mph limit on all single carriageway roads means that the fastest routes take you on big loops to the South. We were on the fringes of Laval and Le Mans at times, and were paying tolls. The 80kph limit is partly to save fuel, so it's a bit ironic that we ended up travelling at over 80 mph to make up the extra mileage.

PBP is stated not to be a race, and participants have to obey traffic laws. That's why I wondered about regenerative braking. Velomobiles have the capacity to exceed the speed limit, and that helps in rolling terrain, as the momentum gets them further up the next 'roller'.

So I wondered if an electric retarder could be set to 80 kph, and recover some energy to help with the next climb. Supercapacitors would seem to the best route to that. I then considered if that would be 'cheating', if it could be made worthwhile. I think not, as the speed limit is an artificial constraint on the more natural energy conservation of momentum. I don't think that periods spent over 80kph are significant in terms of average speed, so it's more a case of staying legal.

I've had a report of 57mph from a velomobile pilot who is still a bit nervous after a rollover incident at speed. The tendency for self-documentation means that ride data are available online, as a sort of self-supplied tachograph. Obviously the degree of scrutiny of a Strava track will be in proportion to the amount of 'profile' the ride gets. The 80kph limit was one of the triggers for the Gilets Jaunes protests.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Greenbank on September 06, 2019, 11:48:01 am
Do French speed limits apply to non-motor vehicles?

(UK speed limit laws only apply to motor vehicles, not bicycles.)
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 06, 2019, 12:25:55 pm
Good point. Due to the loss of information from previous PBPs, I ended up supplying the safety announcement, by recovering it from my 2015 film, and then translating it into English. So maybe I should know.

(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/69048771_2484079004963028_3298624828533112832_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_oc=AQmxMUqREug9ufGsWhuB4hR4DKMpFW-twqwK4O76er9opHGnrsi4Y0t5VQ_Cp4XIJvY&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=e2dee687449de4fb8ef0d6f259a08fe6&oe=5E0B42D5)

The announcement script in 2011 and 2015 had its limitations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wr8UAJmpE
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: yanto on September 06, 2019, 01:44:38 pm
I chatted to Bill Russell and Yanto at the finish. Yanto has an interesting turtleneck suntan going on, while we compare PBP to LEL.

https://vimeo.com/358135279

Haha, never heard it called that before, but yes it's distinctive and takes a year to "cultivate".
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 06, 2019, 01:59:09 pm
Whereas Bill clearly never saw my Sunscreen film. Radio 2 are trailing a programme about the song's 20th anniversary. I don't do these things by accident.

https://vimeo.com/343541398

Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: yanto on September 06, 2019, 02:00:44 pm

I've had a report of 57mph from a velomobile pilot who is still a bit nervous after a rollover incident at speed. The tendency for self-documentation means that ride data are available online, as a sort of self-supplied tachograph. Obviously the degree of scrutiny of a Strava track will be in proportion to the amount of 'profile' the ride gets. The 80kph limit was one of the triggers for the Gilets Jaunes protests.

Interestingly GPS can't be relied upon due to glitches either in tracking or converting to GPX files, on PBP my max speed is showing as 193 kph (uphill), my actual max was 97 kph (just over 60 mph) heading east down the Roc', but I think I've got away with that one. My absolute max was coming down the Mountain on the Isle of Man TT course at 72 mph, which is quite scary, but on unrestricted roads so no potential problems there.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 06, 2019, 02:13:44 pm
I haven't seen Hajo's Strava data, as I'm not a member. I did put a link on facebook, and this was one reaction.

Quote
Interesting that the Strava data indicates 143w average and 20,000 calories total with about 39 hours moving time. I had almost identical power and caloric levels but a more pedestrian 52 hours moving, which of course shows the strength to a velo. What a performance. 143W average pedaling in the supine position for almost 2 days is a remarkable human performance. Wow. Wow. Wow.

I'm assuming that he may have speed and cadence data as well.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 06, 2019, 02:31:53 pm
My absolute max was coming down the Mountain on the Isle of Man TT course at 72 mph, which is quite scary, but on unrestricted roads so no potential problems there.

Oddly I maxed out at Barregarow when I rode the mountain circuit rather than on the mountain and at a paltry 62kmh.
Max speed on the way off the mountain was at Kate's cottage at 60kmh and I was on the brakes for Creag-na-ba not long after that; I remember being unsettled on the approach for some reason and on reaching it realizing just how much road there was available to me once I was there.
I had a northerly, so a cross wind to windy corner and then a tail wind briefly before the hill hid me from it.

So would be interested to know where on the descent you recorded 116kmh!
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 06, 2019, 02:38:11 pm
Yanto is in a velomobile. The fastest I ever saw on a solo was 52 mph on the road from the Cairngorm ski station. I bottled at that speed.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 06, 2019, 02:56:41 pm
Yanto is in a velomobile. The fastest I ever saw on a solo was 52 mph on the road from the Cairngorm ski station. I bottled at that speed.

Aye I know, but for purposes of interest; I intend returning, I reckon I can mix the mountain circuit into a lap of the island for a 200; that's part of an SR/RRTY concept I have in mind.

Fastest I've ever recorded is 90kmh on the way off the lecht towards Tomintoul, I had never noticed the jink through the bridge parapets before, and I've never noticed it since, but it made me hit the brakes.

The Cairngorm ski road is a bit different, I've got a cornering imbalance with right handers so the sugar bowl messes me up and then the traffic picks up.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 06, 2019, 03:13:26 pm
We were doing a ski-touring course at Glenmore Lodge, and I rode up to the lift station before we started every day, so no traffic. I can hardly believe I was once so keen.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Auntie Helen on September 06, 2019, 03:56:58 pm
I haven't seen Hajo's Strava data, as I'm not a member. I did put a link on facebook, and this was one reaction.

Quote
Interesting that the Strava data indicates 143w average and 20,000 calories total with about 39 hours moving time. I had almost identical power and caloric levels but a more pedestrian 52 hours moving, which of course shows the strength to a velo. What a performance. 143W average pedaling in the supine position for almost 2 days is a remarkable human performance. Wow. Wow. Wow.

I'm assuming that he may have speed and cadence data as well.
i gave the link to Hajo’s Strava for PBP in an earlier post on this thread.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 06, 2019, 04:35:54 pm
Yanto is in a velomobile. The fastest I ever saw on a solo was 52 mph on the road from the Cairngorm ski station. I bottled at that speed.

Just remembered I'm following Yanto on Strava so can see that his peak speed off the mountain is the same place as mine, cornering considerably faster than I was by the looks of things too.
Satelite imagery shows I remembered the road width wrongly, it's actually the pub car park that forms the run off.
The GSV image also shows an abnomal road set up with the B12 junction set back from the edge of the road.
https://goo.gl/maps/x5Gz9mAE9T3rsF9x8

Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: yanto on September 06, 2019, 04:56:03 pm
Yanto is in a velomobile. The fastest I ever saw on a solo was 52 mph on the road from the Cairngorm ski station. I bottled at that speed.

Just remembered I'm following Yanto on Strava so can see that his peak speed off the mountain is the same place as mine, cornering considerably faster than I was by the looks of things too.
Satelite imagery shows I remembered the road width wrongly, it's actually the pub car park that forms the run off.
The GSV image also shows an abnomal road set up with the B12 junction set back from the edge of the road.
https://goo.gl/maps/x5Gz9mAE9T3rsF9x8

Just had a look myself, I've been telling porkies it was 70.3mph - sorry!  Cornering at the pub involved a lot of braking and shifting of body weight as much as possible and I was still lifting the inside wheel, shame it wasn't a closed road so I could have used all the available space.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: JonBuoy on September 07, 2019, 08:30:54 am
It looks like the fastest woman was paced round PBP by someone (https://www.strava.com/activities/2639129310) who wasn't even entered in the event.

Not sure whether that breaks any rules or is considered as 'cheating' but to me it definitely doesn't feel 'right'.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on September 07, 2019, 08:38:06 am
If the pacer wasn’t also riding PBP, then it is cheating.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: mattc on September 07, 2019, 01:21:14 pm
It looks like the fastest woman was paced round PBP by someone (https://www.strava.com/activities/2639129310) who wasn't even entered in the event.

Not sure whether that breaks any rules or is considered as 'cheating' but to me it definitely doesn't feel 'right'.
I'm getting "activity doesnae exist" (or similar); maybe someone realised how incriminating this strava log is??
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: grams on September 07, 2019, 01:26:32 pm
If the pacer wasn’t also riding PBP, then it is cheating.

Under AUK rules it would be. Can’t see anything about it the PBP regulations.

Definitely falls under taking the piss if it was planned.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: JonBuoy on September 07, 2019, 04:07:01 pm
Article 18 of the regulations covers it:

Quote
Drafting with someone not taking part in the event
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: JonBuoy on September 07, 2019, 04:13:37 pm
It looks like the fastest woman was paced round PBP by someone (https://www.strava.com/activities/2639129310) who wasn't even entered in the event.

Not sure whether that breaks any rules or is considered as 'cheating' but to me it definitely doesn't feel 'right'.
I'm getting "activity doesnae exist" (or similar); maybe someone realised how incriminating this strava log is??

Agreed.  Taken down since this morning.  Maybe Carlos is a member here.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 07, 2019, 08:19:32 pm
I still don't know what I think about  'Ultra Racers'. I've been trying to persuade myself that they aren't a construct, brought about by a combination of the industry, trade and media.

I'm coming to the view that they're the cycling version of 'The Gladiators' and their modern assault course equivalents. They seem to be pretty accomplished athletes, but have some cartoon characteristics. The Adventure Syndicate seem especially keen on 'Busy single mothers', who have to coordinate their adventures with caring for a teenage daughter.

It surprises me that someone would use a pacer on PBP. I'd have thought that even a relative novice would pick up enough knowledge of Audax group riding in the qualifiers to realise that there's be plenty of people to ride with on an event such as PBP. But as I say, I've got no real knowledge of the 'Ultra' scene.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: grams on September 07, 2019, 08:37:40 pm
Pacing of any kind is banned on Ultras*, so it's got nothing to do with that.

I'm pretty certain Ultra riders are just people. HTH.

(* Except between officially entered pairs, other loopholes may apply, etc)
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: zigzag on September 07, 2019, 08:44:32 pm
at the pace she rode the groups are few and far between. i rode at similar pace and spent at least 500k soloing in no man's land.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 07, 2019, 08:50:21 pm
Pacing of any kind is banned on Ultras*, so it's got nothing to do with that.

I'm pretty certain Ultra riders are just people. HTH.

(* Except between officially entered pairs, other loopholes may apply, etc)

As I say, I know very little about Ultras, and can only rely on research, and interviewing the participants.

Quote
The Transatlantic Way is impressive on its own. It is typical of ultra cycling, or long-distance races. The organisers do a lot of behind the scenes work leaving the limelight focused tightly on the adventure. And that’s the point. Rides like this, Race Across France, the TCR and other adventure cycle races are all about the rider, the bike and leaving the comfort zone of the coffee ride miles and miles behind. It’s not even about ‘racing’, it is more about just doing it and finishing. Self-supported all the way with a race tracker for those dot followers out there is all you should look for. But, even here, Ana’s story was different.
 
“Alex and I were working really well as a team, he in effect drafted me for the first half of the race, whilst putting up with severe pain from ligament damage in his knee. Eventually he took the hard decision to pull out. But I kept going anyway. I finished it. The last part was just unnecessarily painful – when you’re tired and you can see the finish, but the route is a zigzag, that hurts more.”
 
The TransAtlantic Way was won by Bjoern Lehard, with Ana coming in four days behind him, but still one of the fastest female finishers. She shrugs. You get the feeling that the shrug is heartfelt. Long distance cyclists might shrug a lot. Everything is just another one of those things – they are a breed apart and simply knuckle down to sucking up the miles.
https://www.justridethebike.com/this-mum-rides


Perhaps the Maindru photos can shed some light. Those and the unofficial results, which should show who else was around.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Hofnar on September 07, 2019, 09:38:32 pm

Quote

Perhaps the Maindru photos can shed some light. Those and the unofficial results, which should show who else was around.

There are non, they would be few and far between in any case. I was rather to the front in the first half and could find few of myself.
I think I crossed paths a few times with her in the first bit but need a picture of her kit and bike on the day to be sure and comment.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Hofnar on September 07, 2019, 09:52:11 pm

Quote

Perhaps the Maindru photos can shed some light. Those and the unofficial results, which should show who else was around.

There are none, they would be few and far between in any case. I was rather to the front in the first half and could find few of myself.
I think I crossed paths a few times with her in the first bit but need a picture of her kit and bike on the day to be sure and comment.

So I found a picture of her in Brest on the bridge (http://cyclo-long-cours.fr/wp-content/uploads/2019/PBP/Photos/20190819-DSC_3097.jpg)

Time of passing on the bridge is correct for her Brest passing time. Its the lady in pink on the left.

She started in B group as did I, I was sitting rather to the front(20th) for most of the earlier part to avoid the shoulder rubbing. I saw here quite often in the begining. She actually led the bunch on several occasions and came past the group in the wind back to the front when she had fallen back a bit(due to hills or speed surges)

I actually thought this girl(she looked younger then her age from the side profile) is either very strong or very stupid(it seems to be the first). She came pas several times in the wind to get back to front positions, actually pulling at the front and even trying to pull away on her own often on her time trial bars. She must have past me at least 5 to 10 times in the first 100 k's catching lots of wind in the process didn't seem to be riding with anyone around that time. I actually found she could have sheltered a lot more in the then still sizable bunch as lazy me did.

Can tell for later on she got shelled on one of the hills and then she passed me again unseen when I was having pasta and a Shower near Carhaix.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Ivo on September 07, 2019, 10:09:46 pm
There's a German report somewhere on the net confirming that Ana was paced by Carlos.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Hofnar on September 07, 2019, 10:33:59 pm
There's a German report somewhere on the net confirming that Ana was paced by Carlos.

The guy with a double 0 cap in the brest picture looks a lot like Carlos. Don't remember him from the early bits, bt then a lady sticks more to your mind.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: grams on September 07, 2019, 10:48:40 pm
Carlos on Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/biziosona/?hl=en) and Strava (https://www.strava.com/athletes/2087459).

The deleted activity was "Ana's challenge PBP in 51h 02min".

And no he doesn't exist on the PBP tracker.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: JohnL on September 08, 2019, 07:49:31 am
Lack of photos is explained by lack of front numberplate/ helmet sticker.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on September 08, 2019, 08:56:17 am
I wonder if Carlos shows up in the Maindru slush pile of photos without identifiable numbers. It is a couple of hours to go through them all.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: quixoticgeek on September 08, 2019, 09:48:44 am

Oddly I maxed out at Barregarow when I rode the mountain circuit rather than on the mountain and at a paltry 62kmh.
Max speed on the way off the mountain was at Kate's cottage at 60kmh and I was on the brakes for Creag-na-ba not long after that; I remember being unsettled on the approach for some reason and on reaching it realizing just how much road there was available to me once I was there.
I had a northerly, so a cross wind to windy corner and then a tail wind briefly before the hill hid me from it.

So would be interested to know where on the descent you recorded 116kmh!

When I did the TT course on my Brompton, I hit just under 70kph down hill somewhere on the west of the Island. I had been really looking forward to the downhill towards Douglas from Kappel gate, only I turned the corner, hit the wind, and had to pedal downhill to make any progress.

The biggest issue of course with high speeds on the Brompton, is if you slam on the brakes, it does kinda fold up...

J
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 08, 2019, 01:03:20 pm
Ana's story is an interesting one. She mentioned that she'd done the Dean 300 as a qualifier, and articles on her mention a partner called Alex, who trained her. She's based in Cheltenham, and her job involves exercising racehorses. I find that interesting, but it doesn't seem to figure in the profiles of her.

She told me that her horse-riding gives her core strength, and that she favours climbing. Her results in local hillclimbs, and in the Trans-Pyrenees event confirm that. The Trans-Pyrenees is from the same stable as TCR. Her strong placing in the T-P marked her out was the most in-form female ultra rider at PBP.

She's late to cycling, she told me that she'd taken it up in the last three years, and that accords with Hofnar's outline of her riding style, which lacks tactical nous. There are references online to Ana receiving a bursary to attend Emily Chappell's Adventure Syndicate training camp in Girona, and to sponsorship for her bike.

I wonder if Alex rode the qualifiers, and had any PBP ambitions? If Carlos really did pace Ana, was he a substitute for Alex?

As there's no prize fund, it's difficult to 'follow the money'. The only obvious commercial aspect to PBP is through brand enhancement. Marko Baloh finished PBP wearing a shirt promoting his coaching business. Victor Decoard, who rode for Singer in 2015, and appeared with his partner Sina in the 'Brevet' film, fielded a 'Cycles Victor' team, which included former PBP organiser Jean-Gualbert Faburel.

TCR had generated a lot of interest, thanks to Fiona Kolbinger. Fiona had declared that she was going treat PBP as a party. She had clearly enjoyed that aspect of LEL. The TCR had finished in Brest, and had primed press interest. L'Equipe deployed a staff photographer to PBP.

Pacing at PBP is an interesting subject in itself. The early editions were paced, with pacers leap-frogging the lead riders by train. Pacing by a single rider, who rides the entire course is legal, if the pacer is entered, but illegal if the pacer has no number. The difficulties of entering PBP 2019 upset many plans.

So the key questions are: Was Ana paced, and if so by whom? If she was paced, who arranged it? If she was paced, how has it come to light?

One response to 'cheating' at PBP is 'Why would anyone do it. it's not a race, so they're only cheating themselves'. The cluster of quasi-commercial interests surrounding PBP provide an answer to that question.

It's ironic that the shift to Rambouillet, and changes in the organisation of PBP, reasserted the amateur nature of PBP. Much of the professional gloss of previous editions came from the St Quentin authorities. PBP 19 was more of a bare-bones affair.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 08, 2019, 01:23:02 pm
When I did the TT course on my Brompton, I hit just under 70kph down hill somewhere on the west of the Island. I had been really looking forward to the downhill towards Douglas from Kappel gate, only I turned the corner, hit the wind, and had to pedal downhill to make any progress.

The biggest issue of course with high speeds on the Brompton, is if you slam on the brakes, it does kinda fold up...

J

That's a bugger, the very same bit where Yanto recorded that speed.
I didn't know Bromptons don't lock the mechanism  :o

I note that Greenrock have applied for and got the road closure over the mountain for this years CC.

Biggest surprise I got on the course wasn't on the bike, or even the 4x4 my Dad had brought over... no it was in the motorhome, the clatter it made going over the key of Ballaugh Bridge at less than 30...
Also Bray hill is bloody steep when the lights at the bottom have just turned red and you're death gripping crappy Tektro rim brakes...


I don't watch the TT any more...

Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Diagonaliste on September 08, 2019, 03:02:29 pm
Ana's story is an interesting one. She mentioned that she'd done the Dean 300 as a qualifier, and articles on her mention a partner called Alex, who trained her.

Could be Alex Napier (B083), a very nice chap who I met on The Dean 300K this year. He is very strong indeed and his Varruu Ti bike has been advertised on the back cover of Arrivée (this is how I recognised Alex in the Peartree services car park the night before the Dean). Looks like Alex started at the same time as Ana, was a registered rider and finished in a fantastic time - well done to both.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: mattc on September 08, 2019, 03:06:01 pm
Ana's story is an interesting one. She mentioned that she'd done the Dean 300 as a qualifier, and articles on her mention a partner called Alex, who trained her. She's based in Cheltenham, and her job involves exercising racehorses. I find that interesting, but it doesn't seem to figure in the profiles of her.

She told me that her horse-riding gives her core strength, and that she favours climbing. Her results in local hillclimbs, and in the Trans-Pyrenees event confirm that. The Trans-Pyrenees is from the same stable as TCR. Her strong placing in the T-P marked her out was the most in-form female ultra rider at PBP.

Corrections Corner (Pyreneean Departement):
There is understandable confusion between
- TPR (the new event in Oct 2019, from the Transcon stable* i.e. MikeHall/Anna et al, held under pretty much the TCR rules) &
- The Trans-Pyrenees race, held earlier this year by a totally unrelated bunch. 2019 MAY be the 1st edition, I'm not sure.

*Nice pun.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: mattc on September 08, 2019, 03:10:30 pm
Pacing of any kind is banned on Ultras*, so it's got nothing to do with that.

Except for the races where it isn't.

Watch the first bit of Inspired to Ride (possibly the most watched ultra-racing docco yet made).
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 08, 2019, 03:51:07 pm

Corrections Corner (Pyreneean Departement):
There is understandable confusion between
- TPR (the new event in Oct 2019, from the Transcon stable* i.e. MikeHall/Anna et al, held under pretty much the TCR rules) &
- The Trans-Pyrenees race, held earlier this year by a totally unrelated bunch. 2019 MAY be the 1st edition, I'm not sure.

*Nice pun.

I'll admit to being perplexed by the ultra-racing scene, the common cores seem to be the dot-watcher site, and Apidura sponsorship.

I'm gradually accumulating interviews with some the key figures, largely by accident. I didn't know Nicky Hall is now well known, having ridden the Two Coasts 600 with her in 2015, and encountered her at La Tremblay les village on PBP 2015. I've met Ultan Coyle, Hippy, Darren Franks, Ian To and Ede Harrison at the Mersey Roads, and Ede at LEL 2013 as well. I've interviewed Jasmijn Muller at LEL 2017, helped her with a dropped chain at the Mersey Roads, and filmed part of one of her LEJOG attempts.
There are various other encounters I'm sure. Adrian O' Sullivan at the top of the Conor Pass is one.

But at heart I'm a Randonneur/Tester. So I'm more comfortable with Andy Wilkinson, Gethin Butler, Michael Broadwith, Anco de Jong and Richard Leon, among many others. I checked to see what else Richard Leon is up to, and found an article on a chance encounter with Richard by someone covering the Tour de France. Richard does Air BnB in the Ardeche.
https://cyclingtips.com/2016/12/fortuitous-find-how-covering-the-tour-de-france-led-to-one-stunning-bike-collection/
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: quixoticgeek on September 08, 2019, 05:58:37 pm

I'll admit to being perplexed by the ultra-racing scene, the common cores seem to be the dot-watcher site, and Apidura sponsorship.

Dotwatcher.cc is rather new, in fact the domain was only registered on 2018-02-21. I believe it is run by a yacfer, and TCRno5 rider.

As such it is newer than TABR, TCR, RttR, IPWR, TGBP, TAW, etc...

Dotwatching as a term, predates dotwatcher.cc by a number of years. I know I've been using it since I first got interested in ultra racing, back in 2016 (Which is all Emily's fault).

Apidura made a name for themselves as the original manufacturer of the tappered saddle bag that we all use (from what I can tell). They don't sponsor all ultra races, but they certainly have been a long term sponsor of the TCR.

The actual common core of ultra racing, is the bike, 2 wheels, chain driven, 9 small tubes etc... When you look at the bikes at the start of something like the TCR, there are a lot of bikes that have the apidura saddle bag, and a frame bag, and a couple of stem cells, and a handlebar bag. The classic "ultra racer" look. But you'll also see a good mix of other stuff. I spotted one TCR bike with panniers. Then there's been at least one Brompton on the last 2 editions. Mikko who has completed every single TCR so far, and I think his saddle bag is more of a carradice style than apidura.

If I was to make a *MASSIVE* generalisation, I'd say the main thing that differentiates ultra racers from audaxers, is age. Generally speaking, the age of those people I meet at ultra races is a lot lower than those I meet at brevets. My arrival at the start line of yesterdays 200k event in .nl lowered the average age of the starters by about 5 years.

But this is a generalisation. Most ultra-racers also do brevets. That said, James Hayden makes a point about the fact he's never done an Audax. Yesterdays event had at least 2 people who had started a TCR, and the same people had both also completed RatN.

J
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Phil W on September 08, 2019, 06:34:30 pm

I'll admit to being perplexed by the ultra-racing scene, the common cores seem to be the dot-watcher site, and Apidura sponsorship.

Apidura made a name for themselves as the original manufacturer of the tappered saddle bag that we all use (from what I can tell). They don't sponsor all ultra races, but they certainly have been a long term sponsor of the TCR.

Apidura were far from the first to make the style of bags used in ultra racing or frame bags.  I'm pretty sure Mike used Revelate bags for his 2012 round the world race. https://www.revelatedesigns.com I bought a frame bag in 2010 from top peak. The zip eventually failed and I never went back to frame bags.

As to average age I think a lot of that is just related to the age of the people who get involved at the start of something.  Pretty sure when Audax uk was formed the average age was much younger. Look at riders from Thailand and some of the other newer Asian Audax nations. Much younger average age. When I joined my mountaineering club I was in my 20's as were many others in the club. The club aged with us.  I wonder, what the age profile of ultra racing will look like in 20 years time? Will it age with its early participants or will people stop doing it as they get older, being constantly replenished by a younger group of riders? Or will the next (younger) generation still growing up, see ultra racing as boring and go do something in a different format instead ?

As usual this thread has gone way off topic
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: mattc on September 08, 2019, 06:42:08 pm
Then there is the question of whether PBP - especially in the days when it was *officially* a race - is/was an Ultra race. (what year was the first one?)

(admittedly it's at the short end of the spectrum, and I don't want to restart the debate of what *EXACT* distance long-distance starts, and ultra-distance starts ... yadda yadda ... :P )
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on September 08, 2019, 06:43:20 pm
The first PBP race was 1891 and it was twice as long as the next longest (slightly older) race, Bordeaux-Paris. The Tour de France was created in 1903 because separate stages allowed them to significantly increase the total length (and sell more newspapers). The TdF originally had >450km stages with alternate rest days. The last PBP race was 1951.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 08, 2019, 06:56:39 pm
As this is the PBP 2019 board, and this is a thread about possible cheating, what we can say is that the people who can't cheat are the front group.

A car precedes them to open the route, and there are motorbikes around filming at various times. Everyone else has the same opportunities to pull a fast one. As noted already, the race element has been sabotaged by the multiple starts and chip timing.

The best way to post a super-fast time would be for a pre-arranged group to start in the Randonneurs. It used to be that the control opening times had to be respected, which is why the fast riders rode in the vedettes. That doesn't seem to be applied now.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Greenbank on September 08, 2019, 08:00:09 pm
I'll admit to being perplexed by the ultra-racing scene, the common cores seem to be the dot-watcher site, and Apidura sponsorship.

Length and marketing. There are no well known Audaxes above 1600km. Plenty of 1200km rides. LEL at 1400/1500km. Mille Miglia at 1600km.

Audax isn't that competitive either. Most long Audaxes have a first finisher, but a top 10 finish in PBP/LEL/MM/etc isn't prized at all.

Ultra-racing fills this large hole, and each organiser gets to choose the rules but they seem to have settled on a common few (no arranged support, mostly no drafting, trackers, mandatory route on some events, etc).
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: grams on September 08, 2019, 08:06:34 pm
Ultra racing typically has a much more flexible schedule (no relentless hitting control cutoffs every couple of hours), and some have no real time limits at all.

The live tracking also gives it an audience and running commentrary on rider progress from the organisers, which is rarely done on audaxes (beyond occasional posting about the winner "first back").
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 08, 2019, 10:12:14 pm
I've only tried to follow a rider on the ground using tracker information on a couple of occasions. They're usually abut 10 minutes out when you can get a signal for your phone. In remote areas they are useless, as you can't get a signal. So for checking up on riders on the ground they're a bit of a waste of time.

It's somewhat easier if the rider is working to a schedule, as in LEJOG or on a 24.
24s are one of the earliest 'Ultra' events, and there is no minimum speed to reach, and no control cutoffs. The unsupported Ultra model is very recent, with Six Day track racing being the first form in the 1870s.

Quote
SIX-DAY cycle racing is generally thought to be of American origin but the first multi-competitor Six was, as far is known, held in England at the Agricultural Hall, Islington, London in November, 1878. This six was an individual affair, not a team race as now. But riding was limited to 18 hours per day.

One French source claimed that Charles Terront won a Six in Birmingham in 1875 - so pre-dating any London races. But so far this has not been found as recorded elsewhere. Terront would have been just 18 in 1875 and, it seems, did not come to race in England until 1878.

http://sixday.org.uk/html/the_beginnings.html

That's the Charles Terront who won the first PBP late in his career.

This Wiki article isn't too bad at outlining the various forms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-distance_cycling

Long distance cycling has generally been determined by the available technology and media of the time. My heyday was in the photocopier era. We are now in the Blog/Strava era. Where if you're not careful, your enthusiasm to show off can land you in trouble.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: SR Steve on September 08, 2019, 10:41:11 pm
PBPResults.com now has a red exclamation mark against any results with incomplete tracking data so it’s easier to weed out the riders who didn’t go to Brest or made it there but didn’t cycle back but still got a finish tracking time. There are several other riders who just missed one or two tracking points but as long as they got their cards stamped they should get their rides validated.

#166 is a bit unusual though. He appeared to start at 16:31, but then missed Villaines la Juhel and arrived at Fougeres at 18:27, making his average speed 158.8 km/h up to that point! He has times for all the other controls and is credited with a finish time of 57:55.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Hofnar on September 09, 2019, 01:39:22 am
PBPResults.com now has a red exclamation mark against any results with incomplete tracking data so it’s easier to weed out the riders who didn’t go to Brest or made it there but didn’t cycle back but still got a finish tracking time. There are several other riders who just missed one or two tracking points but as long as they got their cards stamped they should get their rides validated.

#166 is a bit unusual though. He appeared to start at 16:31, but then missed Villaines la Juhel and arrived at Fougeres at 18:27, making his average speed 158.8 km/h up to that point! He has times for all the other controls and is credited with a finish time of 57:55.

There are several of those in the detailed data set. It seemed quite some didn't have their chip register a start time and got assigned some random time. If you correct the start for their group time the rides seem often normal. There are at least 20 doing under 5 hours to Villaines ;)
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: TOBY on September 09, 2019, 09:09:08 am
Then there is the question of whether PBP - especially in the days when it was *officially* a race - is/was an Ultra race. (what year was the first one?)

(admittedly it's at the short end of the spectrum, and I don't want to restart the debate of what *EXACT* distance long-distance starts, and ultra-distance starts ... yadda yadda ... :P )

ultra-distance starts at Instagram
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: eddum on September 09, 2019, 10:51:28 am
Long distance cycling has generally been determined by the available technology and media of the time. My heyday was in the photocopier era. We are now in the Blog/Strava era. Where if you're not careful, your enthusiasm to show off can land you in trouble.

Are you saying there were no ways to land yourself in trouble on a photocopier...  ;)
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: zacklaws on September 09, 2019, 12:26:16 pm
There does seem to be the odd timings having now looked at how some of the people I met on the ride fared which I cannot fathom out. Two riders for example who I rode with for about 20 mile, in the last quarter, they both stopped at a roadside stall and I continued. I cannot see how at the next checkpoint, just as I was leaving, they arrived, but according to the timing, one got to that checkpoint 4 hours before I did and the other 2 hours after I did and despite the fact they was both together. Another rider who I met on the road, I met and greeted as they finished shortly after I had my breakfast, they had a start time before mine at 18:15 but according to the electronic timing finished around 11 hours before me and even more amazing, they just arrived at Dreux just as I was leaving and same at the previous checkpoint but their timing even had them there and the previous checkpoints before them two well before I even got there.

No way do I implicit cheating, just the electronic timing maybe being bugged. All my timings bear out as correct according to my Garmin download of where I was at a certain time.
Who knows, with all the electronic equipment people carry on there bikes etc, that some may interfere with the electronic timing or a combination of items doing it. Maybe some malfunctioning piece of kit like a dynamo maybe emitting interference (noise etc) to cause issues or a loose wire doing same. Remember once upon a time a certain cycling computer, maybe a cateye, would not work if near an LED front light because of the interference from it.

But, when its all audited comparing electronic timing with actual control timing it will all sort itself out and the correct amended timings etc be announced
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: FifeingEejit on September 09, 2019, 12:55:05 pm
The clock for the timing system should be in one of the computers attached to the antenna, so shouldn't be affected by interference.
But clocks being "out" is nothing new in the world of sport timing, some sports even have rules to deal with allowable outness and how to correct for it (which includes absolutely not "fixing" it during the period of operation).

Don't know the detail of the chips used as to what they transmit, but an incorrectly programmed chip is nothing abnormal either, all it would take is for X109s chip to have K108s number on it to cause havoc with timings once X109 passes K109.

Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: rob on September 09, 2019, 12:56:04 pm
Then there is the question of whether PBP - especially in the days when it was *officially* a race - is/was an Ultra race. (what year was the first one?)

(admittedly it's at the short end of the spectrum, and I don't want to restart the debate of what *EXACT* distance long-distance starts, and ultra-distance starts ... yadda yadda ... :P )

ultra-distance starts at Instagram

I do wander how much faster an ultra rider could go if they got off Twitter.   #ultraracing #bikepacking
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: simonp on September 09, 2019, 01:02:03 pm
Then there is the question of whether PBP - especially in the days when it was *officially* a race - is/was an Ultra race. (what year was the first one?)

(admittedly it's at the short end of the spectrum, and I don't want to restart the debate of what *EXACT* distance long-distance starts, and ultra-distance starts ... yadda yadda ... :P )

ultra-distance starts at Instagram

I do wander how much faster an ultra rider could go if they got off Twitter.   #ultraracing #bikepacking

But where would all the invective about punctures and bad routing decisions go?
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: eddum on September 09, 2019, 01:26:55 pm
Then there is the question of whether PBP - especially in the days when it was *officially* a race - is/was an Ultra race. (what year was the first one?)

(admittedly it's at the short end of the spectrum, and I don't want to restart the debate of what *EXACT* distance long-distance starts, and ultra-distance starts ... yadda yadda ... :P )

ultra-distance starts at Instagram

I do wander how much faster an ultra rider could go if they got off Twitter.   #ultraracing #bikepacking

But where would all the invective about punctures and bad routing decisions go?

oooof...  group hug now everyone  ;D
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Kim on September 09, 2019, 01:49:11 pm
No way do I implicit cheating, just the electronic timing maybe being bugged. All my timings bear out as correct according to my Garmin download of where I was at a certain time.
Who knows, with all the electronic equipment people carry on there bikes etc, that some may interfere with the electronic timing or a combination of items doing it. Maybe some malfunctioning piece of kit like a dynamo maybe emitting interference (noise etc) to cause issues or a loose wire doing same. Remember once upon a time a certain cycling computer, maybe a cateye, would not work if near an LED front light because of the interference from it.

Like the usual real-world hardware problems like dodgy connections, water ingress, radio-opaque obstructions, etc, that sort of interference would only cause the system to miss reads, which it may or may not handle gracefully. (The software we use for BHPC races can extrapolate missed reads, which works pretty well with riders doing laps of a circuit at a reasonably consistent pace, and fails miserably as soon as there are prolonged stoppages like mechanicals or rider swaps in team events.  For an endurance event where you expect people to spend time not riding you'd have to turn that off, and deal with any inconsistencies manually.  Which means someone wading through a lot of data, even if the software can flag the suspicious bits.)

More subtle problems are possible:  As mentioned above, clocks being out of sync is an obvious one.  Tags with duplicate data on them would cause havoc.  All the normal things that can go wrong when you let computers and tired humans handle important data also apply.


Quote
But, when its all audited comparing electronic timing with actual control timing it will all sort itself out and the correct amended timings etc be announced

Indeed.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Greenbank on September 09, 2019, 01:53:58 pm
Then there is the question of whether PBP - especially in the days when it was *officially* a race - is/was an Ultra race. (what year was the first one?)

(admittedly it's at the short end of the spectrum, and I don't want to restart the debate of what *EXACT* distance long-distance starts, and ultra-distance starts ... yadda yadda ... :P )

ultra-distance starts at Instagram

I do wander how much faster an ultra rider could go if they got off Twitter.   #ultraracing #bikepacking

But where would all the invective about punctures and bad routing decisions go?

If you're fast enough you get to write a book about it (and people will buy it).
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Touring Sec on September 09, 2019, 08:10:24 pm
If I remember right from an interview at Tinteniac, "I far preferred it when Audax was unpopular and only full of weirdos." :) According to Mr Hopper if it is not hurting you are not doing it right! The only person who matters out on the road is yourself and were you audacious. But then again I will just mutter and chunter about the inappropriate length of peoples mud flaps.


Corrections Corner (Pyreneean Departement):
There is understandable confusion between
- TPR (the new event in Oct 2019, from the Transcon stable* i.e. MikeHall/Anna et al, held under pretty much the TCR rules) &
- The Trans-Pyrenees race, held earlier this year by a totally unrelated bunch. 2019 MAY be the 1st edition, I'm not sure.

*Nice pun.

I'll admit to being perplexed by the ultra-racing scene, the common cores seem to be the dot-watcher site, and Apidura sponsorship.

I'm gradually accumulating interviews with some the key figures, largely by accident. I didn't know Nicky Hall is now well known, having ridden the Two Coasts 600 with her in 2015, and encountered her at La Tremblay les village on PBP 2015. I've met Ultan Coyle, Hippy, Darren Franks, Ian To and Ede Harrison at the Mersey Roads, and Ede at LEL 2013 as well. I've interviewed Jasmijn Muller at LEL 2017, helped her with a dropped chain at the Mersey Roads, and filmed part of one of her LEJOG attempts.
There are various other encounters I'm sure. Adrian O' Sullivan at the top of the Conor Pass is one.

But at heart I'm a Randonneur/Tester. So I'm more comfortable with Andy Wilkinson, Gethin Butler, Michael Broadwith, Anco de Jong and Richard Leon, among many others. I checked to see what else Richard Leon is up to, and found an article on a chance encounter with Richard by someone covering the Tour de France. Richard does Air BnB in the Ardeche.
https://cyclingtips.com/2016/12/fortuitous-find-how-covering-the-tour-de-france-led-to-one-stunning-bike-collection/
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 10, 2019, 12:09:40 am
I'm old, knackered and lazy. So not reminding myself of my indolence would just be cheating myself.

https://vimeo.com/358902351
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Hofnar on September 10, 2019, 06:59:29 pm
I'm old, knackered and lazy. So not reminding myself of my indolence would just be cheating myself.

https://vimeo.com/358902351

Sadly he was right beiing unsopported was a challenge. Villaines was very wel organised and a kid pointed us out the water. At the next stop about 300k's in Anco his riding mate and myself where some of the first unsopported riders in. Although I am fluent in french it took a long time to get pointed to some water and then there was only one and it wasn't cold. The good group had sailed once we where served.

We ended up with some japanese that had already blown up their engine and some French unwilling to pull at the front. Marco and Anco keen to make good progress and get back to the group did big pulls. Waived goodbye to them after a while as the uphill speed was a bit too hard to my liking(I was'nt that much in a hurry with a pre booked B&B near Carhaix for the return leg. Lovely chap only found ou later who he was and then understood why he was riding so strong.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 10, 2019, 07:40:24 pm
You're making me feel guilty now, supporting Anco would have made a good project. But that really would have been cheating, following a rider with red Officiel numbers on the car.

That didn't stop one rider dropping off some of their surplus kit on us. We should have reminded them of their higher duty, but we're too soft-hearted. I tend to the view that taking interest in riders is a form of motivation, which borders on cheating, as one does tend to follow them as they proceed.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: telstarbox on September 10, 2019, 08:12:31 pm
Is it cheating if you decide you're too shagged to do a particular short but sharp climb, and that walk-pushing the bike up would be quicker?
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Phil W on September 10, 2019, 08:18:25 pm
No, that's called being honest with yourself, which is the opposite of cheating.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: telstarbox on September 10, 2019, 08:20:05 pm
Ok cool - I thought as long as rider and wheels make it to the summit without outside assistance then it's kosher.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: alotronic on September 11, 2019, 08:55:59 am
Is it cheating if you decide you're too shagged to do a particular short but sharp climb, and that walk-pushing the bike up would be quicker?

If it was cheating then just about every fixie audaxer I know would be a cheat ;)
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: alotronic on September 11, 2019, 09:03:53 am


Long distance cycling has generally been determined by the available technology and media of the time. My heyday was in the photocopier era. We are now in the Blog/Strava era. Where if you're not careful, your enthusiasm to show off can land you in trouble.
[/quote]

Update: The Instagram Era.

Just about all the cycling activity I follow is on Instagram - blogs are great, I still read and write them, but Instagram is where the conversation and blow by blow updates happen. It's the default news feed for those over about 21. And if Instagram is the outside face of a 'scene' then Whatsapp is the tool of choice for the 'insiders' whether that is your clubmates, communities of insiders like dotwarchers, like minded souls or, like on PBP, a bunch of ACME reprobates trying to drag their sorry arses over the line in less than 90 hours (with apologies to Tomsk in recognition of his casually dispatched sub 80). Strava I can live without, Instagram not a chance.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on September 11, 2019, 10:40:13 am
I got approached by a rider at Brest in 2015. He was some sort of librarian, who archived material about cycling. He said that my films were useful to him, as they captured the essence of the event as he was experiencing it. That was important to him as there was so much 'noise'. His feeling was that became more important as more films were being produced.

I was also approached a while ago by the keeper of the Guardian's archive. I'd filmed a book launch they did on Great Gable in 2007. One of the speakers was the Guardian's librarian, and he's ensured that they've got that video as a record. https://vimeo.com/299067319  I've got to decide what the key points are, and ensure the edit covers them.

Cheating at PBP is an interesting issue. The front group is well observed once it has coalesced, although the profusion of starts means that the early progress of the B,C,D and E groups is more obscure. It's reassuring that riders such as Anco de Jong and Marko Baloh made their way up from group B, as they are obvious candidates to chase a group down.

The women's race is different. That takes place among a larger group of high standard male club riders. In the 24 hour TT the women's record is equivalent to a good club record, while the men's record is 15% or so further. That means that a fast woman has a greater potential to find groups. If she can climb, and follow a wheel, then a good time is within her reach. But away from the main group, riders sleep more, so you can't be sure that they'll want to go leave controls promptly. That's where a non-entered 'ringer', would be useful.

The greater the prestige attaching to a 'win', the greater the incentive to 'cheat'. I've seen the profile of female long distance cycling develop. I got bothered to film Jasmijn Muller's LEJOG in 2017, but she never made it as far as where I live. In 2018 she did, but it was my birthday, and couldn't be bothered.

A bike ride is by nature ephemeral, and while it's going on, it's appropriate that it utilises ephemeral media. I assume there's even a snapchat subtext. But ultimately, the mainstream media is the aim, and not just the online cycling blogs. Fiona Kolbinger achieved that with her TCR win, and that made the national press and the BBC.

Female empowerment is very much part of the zeitgeist. But I live with a fully empowered female, who is a national champion in her field, and a PBP ancienne who has run an LEL control five times.

So I'm left wondering if I can cover PBP 2019 with the material I've got, or if it requires more interviews. I prefer interviews during the course of the event, as they are less prone to 'spin'.

The velomobile win is also interesting, but I'm not a recumbent enthusiast. So I can leave that to someone else to chronicle.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Jack_P on October 29, 2019, 02:46:29 pm
It looks like the fastest woman was paced round PBP by someone (https://www.strava.com/activities/2639129310) who wasn't even entered in the event.

Not sure whether that breaks any rules or is considered as 'cheating' but to me it definitely doesn't feel 'right'.

Just leave this here. https://thegasmanonabike.wordpress.com/paris-brest-paris-1200km-race-2019/
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on October 30, 2019, 07:41:17 am
It looks like the fastest woman was paced round PBP by someone (https://www.strava.com/activities/2639129310) who wasn't even entered in the event.

Not sure whether that breaks any rules or is considered as 'cheating' but to me it definitely doesn't feel 'right'.

Just leave this here. https://thegasmanonabike.wordpress.com/paris-brest-paris-1200km-race-2019/

I like that satirical write-up. It captures the mindset of someone who has completely misunderstood the event perfectly. Not finding the first-floor restaurant at Tinteniac is a nice detail.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: eddum on October 30, 2019, 08:31:24 am
It looks like the fastest woman was paced round PBP by someone (https://www.strava.com/activities/2639129310) who wasn't even entered in the event.

Not sure whether that breaks any rules or is considered as 'cheating' but to me it definitely doesn't feel 'right'.

Just leave this here. https://thegasmanonabike.wordpress.com/paris-brest-paris-1200km-race-2019/

I like that satirical write-up. It captures the mindset of someone who has completely misunderstood the event perfectly. Not finding the first-floor restaurant at Tinteniac is a nice detail.

Elsewhere...
Quote
I set off near the front, and there was 2 man breakaway right from the gun.  Of course, it’s not a race and a personal endurance strategy is essential for timely completion, however all I could see was red mist as I chased them down.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: rob on October 30, 2019, 09:22:00 am
So there’s your proof that a top rider was paced by another rider not on the event.

But my takeaway from the other comment in the article is that this seems to be relatively common behaviour in sportives.  The author claims it’s a strategy his club/team have used to secure high finishes for their team.

I find myself very uncomfortable with this, but I’d also have to ask why you’d bother ?
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: bairn again on October 30, 2019, 09:38:55 am
It looks like the fastest woman was paced round PBP by someone (https://www.strava.com/activities/2639129310) who wasn't even entered in the event.

Not sure whether that breaks any rules or is considered as 'cheating' but to me it definitely doesn't feel 'right'.

Just leave this here. https://thegasmanonabike.wordpress.com/paris-brest-paris-1200km-race-2019/

I like that satirical write-up. It captures the mindset of someone who has completely misunderstood the event perfectly. Not finding the first-floor restaurant at Tinteniac is a nice detail.
.

  :thumbsup:   I read it with increasing amusement, maybe it was bemusement. 
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: rob on October 30, 2019, 09:54:40 am
I mentioned on a different thread that there are a lot of under prepared riders out there.   This was met with comments along the lines of ‘everyone was a beginner once’.  Fair enough.

Not knowing that Mortagne was only a control on the way back ?  It’s not like that information isn’t readily available in many places beforehand.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on October 30, 2019, 11:34:43 am
PBP as a race is something of an overlay on the basic structure. It is avowedly non-competitive, but as the times are published, it can't escape being seen as one. The media are to blame, as they like to have the race angle to play with. The growth of new media has made that even more ambiguous.

I don't take 'adventure racing' very seriously, as I can't see how it can be adequately observed. For me, the only reliable indication is how well the 'adventure' riders perform in the '24', then we know that they aren't being paced. Riders of sufficient class don't have to blog, journalists report on them.

So, as the racing is taking place within the racers' own parameters, it's difficult to say whar constitutes cheating or not.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: LateStarter on October 31, 2019, 01:18:39 am
It isn't as if PBP has recently lost its purity, originally a race and at the pointy end probably always a race, in the video linked to by Damon a while back (1991 PBP, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOnf1ksMKZ0 at 7:18) we have the then ACP President saying of the 80 hour group, "let us be clear, here it is a race". I admire more the riders who, without the benefit of motor homes, pacers, private support still manage to just scrape in with minutes to spare.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: yanto on October 31, 2019, 06:17:38 am
I admire more the riders who, without the benefit of motor homes, pacers, private support still manage to just scrape in with minutes to spare.

So you would admire somebody who "scrapes" in with minutes to spare by riding fast, eating well, sleeping well and "wasting" 3hrs having a meal in Rambouillet just so he can come in just before 90hr cut off to the adulation of the crowd, over somebody who rode well, hardly stopped, 1 1/2hrs sleep, many stops for diarrhoea, arrived to half a dozen people with no clapping, no cheering, no fanfare in under 55hrs, both of whom were unsupported in any way shape or form?
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Exit Stage Left on October 31, 2019, 07:09:31 am
It isn't as if PBP has recently lost its purity, originally a race and at the pointy end probably always a race, in the video linked to by Damon a while back (1991 PBP, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOnf1ksMKZ0 at 7:18) we have the then ACP President saying of the 80 hour group, "let us be clear, here it is a race". I admire more the riders who, without the benefit of motor homes, pacers, private support still manage to just scrape in with minutes to spare.

The question is whether the performance of anyone who benefited from Carlos's pacing is also infringing the letter of the rules, even though they might not have been aware of Carlos's lack of an entry. The absence of a number would be a clue.

The race aspect of PBP Randonneur was reintroduced due to pressure from the US contingent. The Randonneurs didn't publish their times, and it was the influence of RAAM that led to the current situation. Some UK Audaxers responded by riding at a good pace, then having a good meal before the end to get a long time. That 'Old Guard' would be amused by the farcical aspects of this year's event at the sharp end.

A number of constructions can be erected around the facts of PBP 2019. I favour a Marko Baloh win in the traditional 'race'. The female event was marred by the attention paid to the Transcontinental, which raised the publicity stakes.
Title: Re: Cheating - maybe?
Post by: Pedal Castro on October 31, 2019, 01:47:21 pm
So there’s your proof that a top rider was paced by another rider not on the event.

But my takeaway from the other comment in the article is that this seems to be relatively common behaviour in sportives.  The author claims it’s a strategy his club/team have used to secure high finishes for their team.

I find myself very uncomfortable with this, but I’d also have to ask why you’d bother ?

Knowing the author and the two riders that were helped out, I am pretty confident that all the "Gorillas" mentioned as helping them round would have been paying to ride the event as well. It is just written in a slightly ambiguous way, nothing wrong in team mates helping each other round if they have all entered the same event (as long as it doesn't break the event rules).