Author Topic: Cheating - maybe?  (Read 19304 times)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #150 on: September 08, 2019, 06:42:08 pm »
Then there is the question of whether PBP - especially in the days when it was *officially* a race - is/was an Ultra race. (what year was the first one?)

(admittedly it's at the short end of the spectrum, and I don't want to restart the debate of what *EXACT* distance long-distance starts, and ultra-distance starts ... yadda yadda ... :P )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #151 on: September 08, 2019, 06:43:20 pm »
The first PBP race was 1891 and it was twice as long as the next longest (slightly older) race, Bordeaux-Paris. The Tour de France was created in 1903 because separate stages allowed them to significantly increase the total length (and sell more newspapers). The TdF originally had >450km stages with alternate rest days. The last PBP race was 1951.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #152 on: September 08, 2019, 06:56:39 pm »
As this is the PBP 2019 board, and this is a thread about possible cheating, what we can say is that the people who can't cheat are the front group.

A car precedes them to open the route, and there are motorbikes around filming at various times. Everyone else has the same opportunities to pull a fast one. As noted already, the race element has been sabotaged by the multiple starts and chip timing.

The best way to post a super-fast time would be for a pre-arranged group to start in the Randonneurs. It used to be that the control opening times had to be respected, which is why the fast riders rode in the vedettes. That doesn't seem to be applied now.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #153 on: September 08, 2019, 08:00:09 pm »
I'll admit to being perplexed by the ultra-racing scene, the common cores seem to be the dot-watcher site, and Apidura sponsorship.

Length and marketing. There are no well known Audaxes above 1600km. Plenty of 1200km rides. LEL at 1400/1500km. Mille Miglia at 1600km.

Audax isn't that competitive either. Most long Audaxes have a first finisher, but a top 10 finish in PBP/LEL/MM/etc isn't prized at all.

Ultra-racing fills this large hole, and each organiser gets to choose the rules but they seem to have settled on a common few (no arranged support, mostly no drafting, trackers, mandatory route on some events, etc).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #154 on: September 08, 2019, 08:06:34 pm »
Ultra racing typically has a much more flexible schedule (no relentless hitting control cutoffs every couple of hours), and some have no real time limits at all.

The live tracking also gives it an audience and running commentrary on rider progress from the organisers, which is rarely done on audaxes (beyond occasional posting about the winner "first back").

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #155 on: September 08, 2019, 10:12:14 pm »
I've only tried to follow a rider on the ground using tracker information on a couple of occasions. They're usually abut 10 minutes out when you can get a signal for your phone. In remote areas they are useless, as you can't get a signal. So for checking up on riders on the ground they're a bit of a waste of time.

It's somewhat easier if the rider is working to a schedule, as in LEJOG or on a 24.
24s are one of the earliest 'Ultra' events, and there is no minimum speed to reach, and no control cutoffs. The unsupported Ultra model is very recent, with Six Day track racing being the first form in the 1870s.

Quote
SIX-DAY cycle racing is generally thought to be of American origin but the first multi-competitor Six was, as far is known, held in England at the Agricultural Hall, Islington, London in November, 1878. This six was an individual affair, not a team race as now. But riding was limited to 18 hours per day.

One French source claimed that Charles Terront won a Six in Birmingham in 1875 - so pre-dating any London races. But so far this has not been found as recorded elsewhere. Terront would have been just 18 in 1875 and, it seems, did not come to race in England until 1878.

http://sixday.org.uk/html/the_beginnings.html

That's the Charles Terront who won the first PBP late in his career.

This Wiki article isn't too bad at outlining the various forms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-distance_cycling

Long distance cycling has generally been determined by the available technology and media of the time. My heyday was in the photocopier era. We are now in the Blog/Strava era. Where if you're not careful, your enthusiasm to show off can land you in trouble.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #156 on: September 08, 2019, 10:41:11 pm »
PBPResults.com now has a red exclamation mark against any results with incomplete tracking data so it’s easier to weed out the riders who didn’t go to Brest or made it there but didn’t cycle back but still got a finish tracking time. There are several other riders who just missed one or two tracking points but as long as they got their cards stamped they should get their rides validated.

#166 is a bit unusual though. He appeared to start at 16:31, but then missed Villaines la Juhel and arrived at Fougeres at 18:27, making his average speed 158.8 km/h up to that point! He has times for all the other controls and is credited with a finish time of 57:55.


Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #157 on: September 09, 2019, 01:39:22 am »
PBPResults.com now has a red exclamation mark against any results with incomplete tracking data so it’s easier to weed out the riders who didn’t go to Brest or made it there but didn’t cycle back but still got a finish tracking time. There are several other riders who just missed one or two tracking points but as long as they got their cards stamped they should get their rides validated.

#166 is a bit unusual though. He appeared to start at 16:31, but then missed Villaines la Juhel and arrived at Fougeres at 18:27, making his average speed 158.8 km/h up to that point! He has times for all the other controls and is credited with a finish time of 57:55.

There are several of those in the detailed data set. It seemed quite some didn't have their chip register a start time and got assigned some random time. If you correct the start for their group time the rides seem often normal. There are at least 20 doing under 5 hours to Villaines ;)

TOBY

  • hello
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #158 on: September 09, 2019, 09:09:08 am »
Then there is the question of whether PBP - especially in the days when it was *officially* a race - is/was an Ultra race. (what year was the first one?)

(admittedly it's at the short end of the spectrum, and I don't want to restart the debate of what *EXACT* distance long-distance starts, and ultra-distance starts ... yadda yadda ... :P )

ultra-distance starts at Instagram

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #159 on: September 09, 2019, 10:51:28 am »
Long distance cycling has generally been determined by the available technology and media of the time. My heyday was in the photocopier era. We are now in the Blog/Strava era. Where if you're not careful, your enthusiasm to show off can land you in trouble.

Are you saying there were no ways to land yourself in trouble on a photocopier...  ;)

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #160 on: September 09, 2019, 12:26:16 pm »
There does seem to be the odd timings having now looked at how some of the people I met on the ride fared which I cannot fathom out. Two riders for example who I rode with for about 20 mile, in the last quarter, they both stopped at a roadside stall and I continued. I cannot see how at the next checkpoint, just as I was leaving, they arrived, but according to the timing, one got to that checkpoint 4 hours before I did and the other 2 hours after I did and despite the fact they was both together. Another rider who I met on the road, I met and greeted as they finished shortly after I had my breakfast, they had a start time before mine at 18:15 but according to the electronic timing finished around 11 hours before me and even more amazing, they just arrived at Dreux just as I was leaving and same at the previous checkpoint but their timing even had them there and the previous checkpoints before them two well before I even got there.

No way do I implicit cheating, just the electronic timing maybe being bugged. All my timings bear out as correct according to my Garmin download of where I was at a certain time.
Who knows, with all the electronic equipment people carry on there bikes etc, that some may interfere with the electronic timing or a combination of items doing it. Maybe some malfunctioning piece of kit like a dynamo maybe emitting interference (noise etc) to cause issues or a loose wire doing same. Remember once upon a time a certain cycling computer, maybe a cateye, would not work if near an LED front light because of the interference from it.

But, when its all audited comparing electronic timing with actual control timing it will all sort itself out and the correct amended timings etc be announced

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #161 on: September 09, 2019, 12:55:05 pm »
The clock for the timing system should be in one of the computers attached to the antenna, so shouldn't be affected by interference.
But clocks being "out" is nothing new in the world of sport timing, some sports even have rules to deal with allowable outness and how to correct for it (which includes absolutely not "fixing" it during the period of operation).

Don't know the detail of the chips used as to what they transmit, but an incorrectly programmed chip is nothing abnormal either, all it would take is for X109s chip to have K108s number on it to cause havoc with timings once X109 passes K109.


rob

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #162 on: September 09, 2019, 12:56:04 pm »
Then there is the question of whether PBP - especially in the days when it was *officially* a race - is/was an Ultra race. (what year was the first one?)

(admittedly it's at the short end of the spectrum, and I don't want to restart the debate of what *EXACT* distance long-distance starts, and ultra-distance starts ... yadda yadda ... :P )

ultra-distance starts at Instagram

I do wander how much faster an ultra rider could go if they got off Twitter.   #ultraracing #bikepacking

simonp

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #163 on: September 09, 2019, 01:02:03 pm »
Then there is the question of whether PBP - especially in the days when it was *officially* a race - is/was an Ultra race. (what year was the first one?)

(admittedly it's at the short end of the spectrum, and I don't want to restart the debate of what *EXACT* distance long-distance starts, and ultra-distance starts ... yadda yadda ... :P )

ultra-distance starts at Instagram

I do wander how much faster an ultra rider could go if they got off Twitter.   #ultraracing #bikepacking

But where would all the invective about punctures and bad routing decisions go?

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #164 on: September 09, 2019, 01:26:55 pm »
Then there is the question of whether PBP - especially in the days when it was *officially* a race - is/was an Ultra race. (what year was the first one?)

(admittedly it's at the short end of the spectrum, and I don't want to restart the debate of what *EXACT* distance long-distance starts, and ultra-distance starts ... yadda yadda ... :P )

ultra-distance starts at Instagram

I do wander how much faster an ultra rider could go if they got off Twitter.   #ultraracing #bikepacking

But where would all the invective about punctures and bad routing decisions go?

oooof...  group hug now everyone  ;D

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #165 on: September 09, 2019, 01:49:11 pm »
No way do I implicit cheating, just the electronic timing maybe being bugged. All my timings bear out as correct according to my Garmin download of where I was at a certain time.
Who knows, with all the electronic equipment people carry on there bikes etc, that some may interfere with the electronic timing or a combination of items doing it. Maybe some malfunctioning piece of kit like a dynamo maybe emitting interference (noise etc) to cause issues or a loose wire doing same. Remember once upon a time a certain cycling computer, maybe a cateye, would not work if near an LED front light because of the interference from it.

Like the usual real-world hardware problems like dodgy connections, water ingress, radio-opaque obstructions, etc, that sort of interference would only cause the system to miss reads, which it may or may not handle gracefully. (The software we use for BHPC races can extrapolate missed reads, which works pretty well with riders doing laps of a circuit at a reasonably consistent pace, and fails miserably as soon as there are prolonged stoppages like mechanicals or rider swaps in team events.  For an endurance event where you expect people to spend time not riding you'd have to turn that off, and deal with any inconsistencies manually.  Which means someone wading through a lot of data, even if the software can flag the suspicious bits.)

More subtle problems are possible:  As mentioned above, clocks being out of sync is an obvious one.  Tags with duplicate data on them would cause havoc.  All the normal things that can go wrong when you let computers and tired humans handle important data also apply.


Quote
But, when its all audited comparing electronic timing with actual control timing it will all sort itself out and the correct amended timings etc be announced

Indeed.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #166 on: September 09, 2019, 01:53:58 pm »
Then there is the question of whether PBP - especially in the days when it was *officially* a race - is/was an Ultra race. (what year was the first one?)

(admittedly it's at the short end of the spectrum, and I don't want to restart the debate of what *EXACT* distance long-distance starts, and ultra-distance starts ... yadda yadda ... :P )

ultra-distance starts at Instagram

I do wander how much faster an ultra rider could go if they got off Twitter.   #ultraracing #bikepacking

But where would all the invective about punctures and bad routing decisions go?

If you're fast enough you get to write a book about it (and people will buy it).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #167 on: September 09, 2019, 08:10:24 pm »
If I remember right from an interview at Tinteniac, "I far preferred it when Audax was unpopular and only full of weirdos." :) According to Mr Hopper if it is not hurting you are not doing it right! The only person who matters out on the road is yourself and were you audacious. But then again I will just mutter and chunter about the inappropriate length of peoples mud flaps.


Corrections Corner (Pyreneean Departement):
There is understandable confusion between
- TPR (the new event in Oct 2019, from the Transcon stable* i.e. MikeHall/Anna et al, held under pretty much the TCR rules) &
- The Trans-Pyrenees race, held earlier this year by a totally unrelated bunch. 2019 MAY be the 1st edition, I'm not sure.

*Nice pun.

I'll admit to being perplexed by the ultra-racing scene, the common cores seem to be the dot-watcher site, and Apidura sponsorship.

I'm gradually accumulating interviews with some the key figures, largely by accident. I didn't know Nicky Hall is now well known, having ridden the Two Coasts 600 with her in 2015, and encountered her at La Tremblay les village on PBP 2015. I've met Ultan Coyle, Hippy, Darren Franks, Ian To and Ede Harrison at the Mersey Roads, and Ede at LEL 2013 as well. I've interviewed Jasmijn Muller at LEL 2017, helped her with a dropped chain at the Mersey Roads, and filmed part of one of her LEJOG attempts.
There are various other encounters I'm sure. Adrian O' Sullivan at the top of the Conor Pass is one.

But at heart I'm a Randonneur/Tester. So I'm more comfortable with Andy Wilkinson, Gethin Butler, Michael Broadwith, Anco de Jong and Richard Leon, among many others. I checked to see what else Richard Leon is up to, and found an article on a chance encounter with Richard by someone covering the Tour de France. Richard does Air BnB in the Ardeche.
https://cyclingtips.com/2016/12/fortuitous-find-how-covering-the-tour-de-france-led-to-one-stunning-bike-collection/

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #168 on: September 10, 2019, 12:09:40 am »
I'm old, knackered and lazy. So not reminding myself of my indolence would just be cheating myself.


Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #169 on: September 10, 2019, 06:59:29 pm »
I'm old, knackered and lazy. So not reminding myself of my indolence would just be cheating myself.



Sadly he was right beiing unsopported was a challenge. Villaines was very wel organised and a kid pointed us out the water. At the next stop about 300k's in Anco his riding mate and myself where some of the first unsopported riders in. Although I am fluent in french it took a long time to get pointed to some water and then there was only one and it wasn't cold. The good group had sailed once we where served.

We ended up with some japanese that had already blown up their engine and some French unwilling to pull at the front. Marco and Anco keen to make good progress and get back to the group did big pulls. Waived goodbye to them after a while as the uphill speed was a bit too hard to my liking(I was'nt that much in a hurry with a pre booked B&B near Carhaix for the return leg. Lovely chap only found ou later who he was and then understood why he was riding so strong.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #170 on: September 10, 2019, 07:40:24 pm »
You're making me feel guilty now, supporting Anco would have made a good project. But that really would have been cheating, following a rider with red Officiel numbers on the car.

That didn't stop one rider dropping off some of their surplus kit on us. We should have reminded them of their higher duty, but we're too soft-hearted. I tend to the view that taking interest in riders is a form of motivation, which borders on cheating, as one does tend to follow them as they proceed.

telstarbox

  • Loving the lanes
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #171 on: September 10, 2019, 08:12:31 pm »
Is it cheating if you decide you're too shagged to do a particular short but sharp climb, and that walk-pushing the bike up would be quicker?
2019 🏅 R1000 and B1000

Phil W

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #172 on: September 10, 2019, 08:18:25 pm »
No, that's called being honest with yourself, which is the opposite of cheating.

telstarbox

  • Loving the lanes
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #173 on: September 10, 2019, 08:20:05 pm »
Ok cool - I thought as long as rider and wheels make it to the summit without outside assistance then it's kosher.
2019 🏅 R1000 and B1000

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #174 on: September 11, 2019, 08:55:59 am »
Is it cheating if you decide you're too shagged to do a particular short but sharp climb, and that walk-pushing the bike up would be quicker?

If it was cheating then just about every fixie audaxer I know would be a cheat ;)