Author Topic: Cheating - maybe?  (Read 19201 times)

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #100 on: September 04, 2019, 11:48:36 pm »
I think (from my rather limited experience) it would probably be fair to say that PBP is (or at least has the potential to be) a relatively straightforward 1200, as 1200s go. But 1200km is a bloody long way and is intrinsically challenging.

Tomsk

  • Fueled by cake since 1957
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Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #101 on: September 05, 2019, 07:36:37 am »
No ... Shermers neck,

Though, I did see a recumbentist with 'Reverse Shermers' riding one-handed, while supporting his head from the back with the other. Seat too laid back presumably? 1200km is going to find your weaknesses, in body or machine [or mind]. My middle left finger is still sore, and I'm on a second course of antibiotics.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #102 on: September 05, 2019, 09:15:18 am »
PBP is demanding for velomobiles because of the distance, and the sustained high speeds. That seems to expose some of the shortcomings in the steering mechanisms. The other main complaint is aerodynamic instability in crosswinds.

The first interview I did of a velomobile pilot was Hans Wessels, who did 65.27 hours in 2003. I got a couple of interviews this time, and we put two velomobile related interviews into the 2015 film. Just because the rider starts in a velomobile doesn't mean they'll finish in one.

The early PBPs put seals on the machines, as the event was as much a test of the machine as the rider. I'd love to see Hajo's GPS data. Is it on Strava?



You're not getting it, HPV's don't ride themselves - people do. If someone wishes to install a motor this is a reflection on them - not on the HPV.


And PBP is demanding for velomobiles? First back on PBP would suggest otherwise - as I said it down to the rider and not the HPV.

We do like to get interviews as close to the finish line as possible. That way there's no filtering.

In these two instances we have a report of steering component failure, and of a machine that was only received immediately prior to the event, without an opportunity for a 'shakedown'.

I've just been refurbishing my wood chipper, a machine that produces a lot of vibration. That tends to loosen linkages, and causes fractures where cowlings are attached to the main chassis. Those cowlings also obscure components which are subject to wear, but also protect those components. The standard machine used on PBP has certain vulnerabilities. The first rider we saw with a major problem had a broken derailleur, caused by another rider clipping it.

So beyond the basic issue of increased mass, and improved aerodynamics, a velomobile has a more complex interaction with vibration, and poor access to key components. So completion of an SR series, and PBP, provides reassurance that the machine is capable and reliable.

The run of the mill bicycle is an assemblage of generic components. You could take most of the bits off one 700c fast tourer and swap them with another. HPVs are more brand specific, so there's more benefit from getting your product being seen to succeed.

Comparing the average speeds of the lead group and Hajo over the last three stages is interesting. The group of three had a lead at Villaines, which was gradually eroded by Hajo. That's consistent with my memories of the 2011 course, with lots of flat sections, where high speed cruising is possible.

But I didn't ride this edition, so I don't know what the new route feels like. The final 25 km of the old parcours was very HPV unfriendly, with lots of hills and junctions, especially the pre-2015 version. There's also the question of the diversion after Dreux, about which I've had poor reports.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #103 on: September 05, 2019, 09:33:44 am »
This has reminded me of the sad sight we saw at night ... maybe Monday night which would mean after Carhaix ?.. and before the famous Huelgoat...   A velomobile being strapped onto a low loader recovery truck  :-[

It was red.... I thought maybe the Ferrararri but not sure.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #104 on: September 05, 2019, 11:00:10 am »
PBP is demanding for velomobiles because of the distance, and the sustained high speeds. That seems to expose some of the shortcomings in the steering mechanisms. The other main complaint is aerodynamic instability in crosswinds.

The first interview I did of a velomobile pilot was Hans Wessels, who did 65.27 hours in 2003. I got a couple of interviews this time, and we put two velomobile related interviews into the 2015 film. Just because the rider starts in a velomobile doesn't mean they'll finish in one.

The early PBPs put seals on the machines, as the event was as much a test of the machine as the rider. I'd love to see Hajo's GPS data. Is it on Strava?



You're not getting it, HPV's don't ride themselves - people do. If someone wishes to install a motor this is a reflection on them - not on the HPV.


And PBP is demanding for velomobiles? First back on PBP would suggest otherwise - as I said it down to the rider and not the HPV.

We do like to get interviews as close to the finish line as possible. That way there's no filtering.

In these two instances we have a report of steering component failure, and of a machine that was only received immediately prior to the event, without an opportunity for a 'shakedown'.

I've just been refurbishing my wood chipper, a machine that produces a lot of vibration. That tends to loosen linkages, and causes fractures where cowlings are attached to the main chassis. Those cowlings also obscure components which are subject to wear, but also protect those components. The standard machine used on PBP has certain vulnerabilities. The first rider we saw with a major problem had a broken derailleur, caused by another rider clipping it.

So beyond the basic issue of increased mass, and improved aerodynamics, a velomobile has a more complex interaction with vibration, and poor access to key components. So completion of an SR series, and PBP, provides reassurance that the machine is capable and reliable.

The run of the mill bicycle is an assemblage of generic components. You could take most of the bits off one 700c fast tourer and swap them with another. HPVs are more brand specific, so there's more benefit from getting your product being seen to succeed.

Comparing the average speeds of the lead group and Hajo over the last three stages is interesting. The group of three had a lead at Villaines, which was gradually eroded by Hajo. That's consistent with my memories of the 2011 course, with lots of flat sections, where high speed cruising is possible.

But I didn't ride this edition, so I don't know what the new route feels like. The final 25 km of the old parcours was very HPV unfriendly, with lots of hills and junctions, especially the pre-2015 version. There's also the question of the diversion after Dreux, about which I've had poor reports.

We have strayed way off topic here. However, I think you have a few misconceptions on Velomobiles;

All models are of monocoque construction so have no frames or chassis (bar two weird Australian ones which are crap and won't be seen doing any serious rides) so vibration has no effect, it could be argued that vibration is less than most road bikes because of full suspension although NVH tests would need to carried out to verify, so as long as appropriate fasteners and/or thread locks are used nothing comes loose, certainly in 10 years of velomobile riding I've never experienced a loose fitting through vibration, I would like to know who and which machine suffered the steering failure as I don't recall reading about it, and we are a small close knit community that chatter and bicker like fisherman's wives! If it was Hans as you refer to earlier I can find out more although I thought he normally rode a recumbent bike. If it was Bill Russell in 2015 then yes he had many mechanical problems with a machine that had supposedly been tested and set up by a French dealer, although he still finished in time.

Agreed access to components can be more difficult than an ordinary bike but it was assembled by man so can be disassembled, although most modern designs have access panels so no more difficult than an ordinary bike.

As for components, the gear train is standard bike components so no problems there and they last much longer, I'm still running the same cassette and brake pads from new (nearly 5 years and over 25k miles). Components such as front suspension are pretty much identical between all European manufacturers and are robust, just wear and tear over many thousands of Km's requires any replacement of parts although I agree you can't get them in your local cycle shop.

I have to say all the mechanical problems I've had bar one were with off the shelf bicycle components, although I've never been stranded by any of them, unlike I have been with road bikes in the past (seat post snapping, downtube fracture, fork crown failure).

One aspect you have got correct is cross wind effect, a large surface area to relatively low mass does equate to movement, sometimes violent, but with experience you learn to let it happen and not try to resist (unless heading for something damaging), although some models are more prone than others, mine for instance is fairly lively in crosswinds although fitting spats or "pants" as they are commonly referred to over the front wheel openings reduces this enormously at the cost of reduced steering lock, which after seeing some of the tortuous routes into controls I'm glad I took mine off.

PS I like to think we all ride HPV's (unless you strap an electric motor to it (got this back on topic)), derivatives of which are bicycle, tricycle, ElliptiGo, velomobile etc.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #105 on: September 05, 2019, 01:07:35 pm »
No ... Shermers neck,

Though, I did see a recumbentist with 'Reverse Shermers' riding one-handed, while supporting his head from the back with the other. Seat too laid back presumably?

Seems likely.  A very reclined racing position is fantastically aero without significantly reducing comfort, but just like an upright you're doing unnatural things with your neck in order to just-about see where you're going.  The recumbent has the advantage that it's practical to fit a head/neck rest and not rely on muscle tension alone[1], but it's still going to be unpleasant if you keep it up for more than a few hours.

Velomobiles can put the rider's neck in a more neutral position, without compromising the aerodynamics the way a touring recumbent geometry would.


[1] IME the usefulness of a head support is proportional to the quality of the road surface, and decreases with speed.  If you're being shaken around by crappy tarmac, you generally want to use your neck muscles to decouple the rattle from your eyes/teeth/BRANEZ.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #106 on: September 05, 2019, 04:00:31 pm »
This has reminded me of the sad sight we saw at night ... maybe Monday night which would mean after Carhaix ?.. and before the famous Huelgoat...   A velomobile being strapped onto a low loader recovery truck  :-[

It was red.... I thought maybe the Ferrararri but not sure.
F103? He scratched due to drive train troubles he couldn't sort out. No cheating involved.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #107 on: September 05, 2019, 04:27:24 pm »
No ... Shermers neck,

Though, I did see a recumbentist with 'Reverse Shermers' riding one-handed, while supporting his head from the back with the other.
I can't know why that recumbentist did that. He might have had a very reclined seat and no headrest, though I doubt it. I occasionally do this - or leave a hand dangling - because I can. You see, you don't need to hang on to your handle bar with both hands. There is no power transfer or balancing or whatever to be had from that. You can ride your heart out with a hand behind your head like you'd sit in front of your tv. Unless you ride a MBB recumbent (direct front wheel drive). Then you do it to bragg, although hardly anyone gets it.  :-\

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #108 on: September 05, 2019, 07:52:38 pm »
I chatted to Bill Russell and Yanto at the finish. Yanto has an interesting turtleneck suntan going on, while we compare PBP to LEL.


Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #109 on: September 06, 2019, 08:54:15 am »
This has reminded me of the sad sight we saw at night ... maybe Monday night which would mean after Carhaix ?.. and before the famous Huelgoat...   A velomobile being strapped onto a low loader recovery truck  :-[

It was red.... I thought maybe the Ferrararri but not sure.
F103? He scratched due to drive train troubles he couldn't sort out. No cheating involved.

Wasn't saying he did... as usual this thread seems to have evolved a long way from the OP  ;D

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #110 on: September 06, 2019, 09:31:50 am »
... as usual this thread seems to have evolved a long way from the OP  ;D

Don't worry, the various threads can be integrated.

We had an interesting time navigating to follow PBP 2019 without using the route. The route is impossible in a car, as it's hard to average more than 40kph because of all the cyclists. However, a GPS will put you on the route if it's set to avoid motorways. But the blanket 50mph limit on all single carriageway roads means that the fastest routes take you on big loops to the South. We were on the fringes of Laval and Le Mans at times, and were paying tolls. The 80kph limit is partly to save fuel, so it's a bit ironic that we ended up travelling at over 80 mph to make up the extra mileage.

PBP is stated not to be a race, and participants have to obey traffic laws. That's why I wondered about regenerative braking. Velomobiles have the capacity to exceed the speed limit, and that helps in rolling terrain, as the momentum gets them further up the next 'roller'.

So I wondered if an electric retarder could be set to 80 kph, and recover some energy to help with the next climb. Supercapacitors would seem to the best route to that. I then considered if that would be 'cheating', if it could be made worthwhile. I think not, as the speed limit is an artificial constraint on the more natural energy conservation of momentum. I don't think that periods spent over 80kph are significant in terms of average speed, so it's more a case of staying legal.

I've had a report of 57mph from a velomobile pilot who is still a bit nervous after a rollover incident at speed. The tendency for self-documentation means that ride data are available online, as a sort of self-supplied tachograph. Obviously the degree of scrutiny of a Strava track will be in proportion to the amount of 'profile' the ride gets. The 80kph limit was one of the triggers for the Gilets Jaunes protests.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #111 on: September 06, 2019, 11:48:01 am »
Do French speed limits apply to non-motor vehicles?

(UK speed limit laws only apply to motor vehicles, not bicycles.)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #112 on: September 06, 2019, 12:25:55 pm »
Good point. Due to the loss of information from previous PBPs, I ended up supplying the safety announcement, by recovering it from my 2015 film, and then translating it into English. So maybe I should know.



The announcement script in 2011 and 2015 had its limitations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wr8UAJmpE

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #113 on: September 06, 2019, 01:44:38 pm »
I chatted to Bill Russell and Yanto at the finish. Yanto has an interesting turtleneck suntan going on, while we compare PBP to LEL.



Haha, never heard it called that before, but yes it's distinctive and takes a year to "cultivate".

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #114 on: September 06, 2019, 01:59:09 pm »
Whereas Bill clearly never saw my Sunscreen film. Radio 2 are trailing a programme about the song's 20th anniversary. I don't do these things by accident.




Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #115 on: September 06, 2019, 02:00:44 pm »

I've had a report of 57mph from a velomobile pilot who is still a bit nervous after a rollover incident at speed. The tendency for self-documentation means that ride data are available online, as a sort of self-supplied tachograph. Obviously the degree of scrutiny of a Strava track will be in proportion to the amount of 'profile' the ride gets. The 80kph limit was one of the triggers for the Gilets Jaunes protests.

Interestingly GPS can't be relied upon due to glitches either in tracking or converting to GPX files, on PBP my max speed is showing as 193 kph (uphill), my actual max was 97 kph (just over 60 mph) heading east down the Roc', but I think I've got away with that one. My absolute max was coming down the Mountain on the Isle of Man TT course at 72 mph, which is quite scary, but on unrestricted roads so no potential problems there.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #116 on: September 06, 2019, 02:13:44 pm »
I haven't seen Hajo's Strava data, as I'm not a member. I did put a link on facebook, and this was one reaction.

Quote
Interesting that the Strava data indicates 143w average and 20,000 calories total with about 39 hours moving time. I had almost identical power and caloric levels but a more pedestrian 52 hours moving, which of course shows the strength to a velo. What a performance. 143W average pedaling in the supine position for almost 2 days is a remarkable human performance. Wow. Wow. Wow.

I'm assuming that he may have speed and cadence data as well.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #117 on: September 06, 2019, 02:31:53 pm »
My absolute max was coming down the Mountain on the Isle of Man TT course at 72 mph, which is quite scary, but on unrestricted roads so no potential problems there.

Oddly I maxed out at Barregarow when I rode the mountain circuit rather than on the mountain and at a paltry 62kmh.
Max speed on the way off the mountain was at Kate's cottage at 60kmh and I was on the brakes for Creag-na-ba not long after that; I remember being unsettled on the approach for some reason and on reaching it realizing just how much road there was available to me once I was there.
I had a northerly, so a cross wind to windy corner and then a tail wind briefly before the hill hid me from it.

So would be interested to know where on the descent you recorded 116kmh!

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #118 on: September 06, 2019, 02:38:11 pm »
Yanto is in a velomobile. The fastest I ever saw on a solo was 52 mph on the road from the Cairngorm ski station. I bottled at that speed.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #119 on: September 06, 2019, 02:56:41 pm »
Yanto is in a velomobile. The fastest I ever saw on a solo was 52 mph on the road from the Cairngorm ski station. I bottled at that speed.

Aye I know, but for purposes of interest; I intend returning, I reckon I can mix the mountain circuit into a lap of the island for a 200; that's part of an SR/RRTY concept I have in mind.

Fastest I've ever recorded is 90kmh on the way off the lecht towards Tomintoul, I had never noticed the jink through the bridge parapets before, and I've never noticed it since, but it made me hit the brakes.

The Cairngorm ski road is a bit different, I've got a cornering imbalance with right handers so the sugar bowl messes me up and then the traffic picks up.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #120 on: September 06, 2019, 03:13:26 pm »
We were doing a ski-touring course at Glenmore Lodge, and I rode up to the lift station before we started every day, so no traffic. I can hardly believe I was once so keen.

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #121 on: September 06, 2019, 03:56:58 pm »
I haven't seen Hajo's Strava data, as I'm not a member. I did put a link on facebook, and this was one reaction.

Quote
Interesting that the Strava data indicates 143w average and 20,000 calories total with about 39 hours moving time. I had almost identical power and caloric levels but a more pedestrian 52 hours moving, which of course shows the strength to a velo. What a performance. 143W average pedaling in the supine position for almost 2 days is a remarkable human performance. Wow. Wow. Wow.

I'm assuming that he may have speed and cadence data as well.
i gave the link to Hajo’s Strava for PBP in an earlier post on this thread.
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #122 on: September 06, 2019, 04:35:54 pm »
Yanto is in a velomobile. The fastest I ever saw on a solo was 52 mph on the road from the Cairngorm ski station. I bottled at that speed.

Just remembered I'm following Yanto on Strava so can see that his peak speed off the mountain is the same place as mine, cornering considerably faster than I was by the looks of things too.
Satelite imagery shows I remembered the road width wrongly, it's actually the pub car park that forms the run off.
The GSV image also shows an abnomal road set up with the B12 junction set back from the edge of the road.
https://goo.gl/maps/x5Gz9mAE9T3rsF9x8


Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #123 on: September 06, 2019, 04:56:03 pm »
Yanto is in a velomobile. The fastest I ever saw on a solo was 52 mph on the road from the Cairngorm ski station. I bottled at that speed.

Just remembered I'm following Yanto on Strava so can see that his peak speed off the mountain is the same place as mine, cornering considerably faster than I was by the looks of things too.
Satelite imagery shows I remembered the road width wrongly, it's actually the pub car park that forms the run off.
The GSV image also shows an abnomal road set up with the B12 junction set back from the edge of the road.
https://goo.gl/maps/x5Gz9mAE9T3rsF9x8

Just had a look myself, I've been telling porkies it was 70.3mph - sorry!  Cornering at the pub involved a lot of braking and shifting of body weight as much as possible and I was still lifting the inside wheel, shame it wasn't a closed road so I could have used all the available space.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #124 on: September 07, 2019, 08:30:54 am »
It looks like the fastest woman was paced round PBP by someone who wasn't even entered in the event.

Not sure whether that breaks any rules or is considered as 'cheating' but to me it definitely doesn't feel 'right'.