Author Topic: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start  (Read 17901 times)

This is purely my point of view.

TTs and road racing should use basically the same bike. Since tri-bars and disc wheels are banned in road racing, they should be banned in TTs as well.

When tri-bars were used to first win a race, they gave an advantage no other rider had, therefore the result should have been declared null void.

Tri-bars changed the riding position; holding the bars with your hands is fundamentally different from resting on your elbows.

There is a before tribars era and the now tribars era, that is a break.

The first time disc wheels were used, I think, was the Moser hour record in 1984. They should have been banned because they gave Moser an advantage that Merckx in 1972 didn't have. But the UCI probably didn't because of commercial interests, which also applies to Lemond and tribars.

Road racing is not about "progress", it's a person to person sport, each rider in a race should have the same bike in performance, it doesn't make any difference if all or none of the riders use tri-bars or not. In timed events, eg TTs, records, there should be continuation from previous rides.

Tribars and disc wheels do not translate into useful items for non-competitive cycling. Whereas other stuff like clipless pedals, more gears etc can be useful for general cycling.

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #1 on: 28 November, 2016, 12:33:19 pm »
The Hour Record has now become a joke, because of the multiple changes in rules in recent years.

Mr Larrington

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #2 on: 28 November, 2016, 12:44:36 pm »
I'd get rid of those multiple gears, pneumatic tyres and synthetic fabrics too.
</Ned_Ludd>
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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #3 on: 28 November, 2016, 12:49:22 pm »
I'd get rid of those multiple gears, pneumatic tyres and synthetic fabrics too.
</Ned_Ludd>

See my last point in my first post.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #4 on: 28 November, 2016, 12:58:11 pm »
Modern tri-bars (ignoring Victorian-era experiments) were in RAAM several years before triathletes and the TdF discovered them, more for comfort than pure speed.
http://www.triathlete.com/2010/07/insidetri/was-the-first-aerobar-really-not-the-first_11039

Disk wheels, trispokes, deep section rims and the like were invented pre-1900.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Karla

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #5 on: 28 November, 2016, 01:15:06 pm »
If something is within the rules and gives an advantage, and nobody else thinks of doing it, that's their own problem.

Cyclesport is, inescapably, partly about technical progress.  Just like mostorsport.  If you don't like that, give up and become a runner - preferably barefoot.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #6 on: 28 November, 2016, 01:18:49 pm »
The rules are the nub. Disk wheels and aerobars were against the rules in place at the time.

Sailing has single class racing. Cycling has the Little 500, which is the nearest thing.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

mattc

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #7 on: 28 November, 2016, 01:25:32 pm »
If something is within the rules and gives an advantage, and nobody else thinks of doing it, that's their own problem.

Cyclesport is, inescapably, partly about technical progress.  Just like mostorsport.  If you don't like that, give up and become a runner - preferably barefoot.
The forum cycle-SPORT troll has spoken!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

mattc

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #8 on: 28 November, 2016, 01:26:59 pm »
The rules are the nub. Disk wheels and aerobars were against the rules in place at the time.

Sailing has single class racing. Cycling has the Little 500, which is the nearest thing.
What's that?! <googles> ... Oh. I guess I should watch Breaking Away again. I never thought I'd say that!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #9 on: 28 November, 2016, 01:28:18 pm »
I'd get rid of those multiple gears, pneumatic tyres and synthetic fabrics too.
</Ned_Ludd>

See my last point in my first post.
Tribars and disc wheels do not translate into useful items for non-competitive cycling. Whereas other stuff like clipless pedals, more gears etc can be useful for general cycling.
Seems to be true, though I do know people who use tribars for audax. Nevertheless, as you say, these two items are not particularly useful for cycling other than racing. But you also said:
Quote
[Road racing is not about "progress", it's a person to person sport, each rider in a race should have the same bike in performance, it doesn't make any difference if all or none of the riders use tri-bars or not. In timed events, eg TTs, records, there should be continuation from previous rides.
Putting aside for a minute the continuation from person to person of record attempts etc (which I can see the desirability of from a comparability perspective but think is anyway impossible for many reasons), you say racing is not about progress. I'd agree: racing is about sport. It owes nothing to cycling for transport, utility or pleasure; it might take and give various innovations but is under no obligation to do so. Therefore, the fact that a particular innovation is impractical for non-racing riding is irrelevant to sport. To say so would make no more sense than banning 100-metre sprinters from using spiked shoes because it's impractical footwear for running to catch a bus. Sports make rules for themselves – sometimes for the benefit of competitors, sometimes for the spectators, sometimes for the administrators, sometimes for the commercial interests – but not for the wider world.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Karla

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #10 on: 28 November, 2016, 01:29:28 pm »
Lemond had run his bars past the commissaires prior to the first TT of the tour.  Once they'd cleared him to race, they could hardly go back on their decision afterwards.

Anyway, if Fignon wanted to win that tour, wearing an aero helmet on the final TT would probably have netted him at least the 8 seconds required!

mattc

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #11 on: 28 November, 2016, 01:34:59 pm »
...

Sports make rules for themselves – sometimes for the benefit of competitors, sometimes for the spectators, sometimes for the administrators, sometimes for the commercial interests – but not for the wider world.

I would confidently place "the spectators" in "the wider world".


I'd also note that all Rules are arbitrary - and without them you just have war.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #12 on: 28 November, 2016, 01:55:54 pm »
If something is within the rules and gives an advantage, and nobody else thinks of doing it, that's their own problem.

Cyclesport is, inescapably, partly about technical progress.  Just like mostorsport.  If you don't like that, give up and become a runner - preferably barefoot.
The forum cycle-SPORT troll has spoken!


Calling someone a troll is in clear breach of forum rules. I suggest you moderate your own language.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #13 on: 28 November, 2016, 02:11:20 pm »
Sport, like life, isnt a binary activity, however hard mattc tries to view it as such. Even with a defined set of rules there is wiggle room with regards to the interpretation of those rules by those tasked to enforce them.

I suppose it depends upon which end of this particular spectrum one resides i would suggest that mattc and I are at polar opposites, and in some respects I am loathe to disabuse him of his polarised view of the world as it causes him to gibber.

Bradley Wiggins's recent use of nuclear grade steroids to cure an allergy is a case in point. Whilst it was 'within the rules' in so far as somebody chose to permit it, it is at best a disgraceful abuse of the rules to allow a well documented performance enhancing drug to be used when other non-enhancing alternatives were available.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #14 on: 28 November, 2016, 02:18:50 pm »
Moser's disk wheels didn't have the minimum number of spokes allowed in the rules at the time.

Without question, Fignon would have won the '89 TdF by wearing an aero helmet, though he would also have won if he hadn't had a huge saddle sore, which meant he kept standing up and slowing down.

Did you know that Fignon wanted to use aerobars at the 1989 Grand Prix de Nations TT after the TdF and was prevented from doing so by the commissaires? So much for consistency.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Karla

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #15 on: 28 November, 2016, 02:24:31 pm »
... and he was running double discs, which definitely don't pass the hubner test.

Samuel D

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #16 on: 28 November, 2016, 02:47:19 pm »
This topic is unsatisfactory to think about, whatever your viewpoint.

If you allow technological progress to play too large a role, you ruin the racing and put up pointless barriers to entry.

And yet you cannot reasonably freeze technology either: supplies of that frozen technology would eventually dry up and/or become prohibitively expensive (ironically creating a barrier to entry) as the rest of the world moves on.

There are also certain essential bicycle differences on any start line because racers are of different heights and proportions.

So I think you can’t be dogmatic and principled about this but instead have to be pragmatic. There is a sliding scale between Merckx’s hour-record bicycle and the latest faired recumbent, and somewhere in the middle is an ideal racing bicycle today. Sensible people may disagree where the best compromise lies on that scale (I think aero wheels add nothing but cost to racing. The cost may not matter at pro level but does in amateur races. But the other point of view on aero wheels is not abhorrent to me).

Practically, you cannot ban aerodynamic aids even if you wanted to, because designers will try to make things aerodynamic even if those parts don’t look aero or have an aero label.

The thing that saves the sport from descending into a farce of Formula 1 proportions is that even the very latest technology ultimately doesn’t matter very much, even at pro level.

But that’s not a very satisfactory state of affairs either. Best not to think about it.

Mr Larrington

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #17 on: 28 November, 2016, 03:03:07 pm »
Depravo the Roadrat has tri-bars and has never been near a time trial.  I used to use home-made Unidisk-alikes on my do-anything recumbent (a particular bugbear, since it was apparently OK by the UCI's peculiar mindset to fork out 500 notes for a sheet of compressed soot but not to spend a tenner in the local kite shop and B&Q).
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citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #18 on: 28 November, 2016, 03:09:29 pm »
Lemond had run his bars past the commissaires prior to the first TT of the tour.

Didn't the team use them in another (low profile) race before the Tour in order to set a precedent?
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #19 on: 28 November, 2016, 03:22:38 pm »
This topic is unsatisfactory to think about, whatever your viewpoint.

If you allow technological progress to play too large a role, you ruin the racing and put up pointless barriers to entry.

And yet you cannot reasonably freeze technology either: supplies of that frozen technology would eventually dry up and/or become prohibitively expensive (ironically creating a barrier to entry) as the rest of the world moves on.

There are also certain essential bicycle differences on any start line because racers are of different heights and proportions.

So I think you can’t be dogmatic and principled about this but instead have to be pragmatic. There is a sliding scale between Merckx’s hour-record bicycle and the latest faired recumbent, and somewhere in the middle is an ideal racing bicycle today. Sensible people may disagree where the best compromise lies on that scale (I think aero wheels add nothing but cost to racing. The cost may not matter at pro level but does in amateur races. But the other point of view on aero wheels is not abhorrent to me).

Practically, you cannot ban aerodynamic aids even if you wanted to, because designers will try to make things aerodynamic even if those parts don’t look aero or have an aero label.

The thing that saves the sport from descending into a farce of Formula 1 proportions is that even the very latest technology ultimately doesn’t matter very much, even at pro level.

But that’s not a very satisfactory state of affairs either. Best not to think about it.
Or all three are excellent racing bicycles but maybe not in competition with each other; though even that could be quite entertaining.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Karla

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #20 on: 28 November, 2016, 03:24:28 pm »
Lemond had run his bars past the commissaires prior to the first TT of the tour.

Didn't the team use them in another (low profile) race before the Tour in order to set a precedent?

If they did, I didn't notice much as I was four at the time. 

Samuel D makes an good point though about how people, teams and sponsors will always look for an edge.  I read Chris Boardman (in his olympic tech director role): his response to the UCI tightening down the regs on stuff was basically, "Good, it'll mean that everyone has to go after more esoteric gains, and we've got more budget so we'll do that better."  He didn't use so many words, of course.  An example of that would be Team GB's skinsuits: their 2008 ones got banned as being too futuristic, otherwise everyone would have been wearing them by 2012.  As it was, they came back to London with suits that were more conventional-looking but which cost several times the price - so banning the original suits was a blocker to fair competition, not an enabler.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #21 on: 28 November, 2016, 03:47:42 pm »
tri-bars can be massively useful in non-competitive cycling, to get free speed (similar to sitting on someone's wheel), to have a different position and give some rest to your palms on long rides. disc wheels not so much, i've read the rear disc wheel saves about 30s every hour. fwiw, on one of the stretches i ride on often (a gentle slope), i can just about push 53kph on a road bike in the most aero position and reach 60kph on a tt bike with aero wheels.

mattc

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #22 on: 28 November, 2016, 03:54:54 pm »
Sport, like life, isnt a binary activity, however hard mattc tries to view it as such. Even with a defined set of rules there is wiggle room with regards to the interpretation of those rules by those tasked to enforce them.

I suppose it depends upon which end of this particular spectrum one resides i would suggest that mattc and I are at polar opposites, and in some respects I am loathe to disabuse him of his polarised view of the world as it causes him to gibber.

Bradley Wiggins's recent use of nuclear grade steroids to cure an allergy is a case in point. Whilst it was 'within the rules' in so far as somebody chose to permit it, it is at best a disgraceful abuse of the rules to allow a well documented performance enhancing drug to be used when other non-enhancing alternatives were available.

Hee-hee! Are you still stuck on that?  :D

Do you actually have any relevant views you want to share (except for mattc seeing everything as binary, and Wiggins being a cheat)? We have heard quite a bit of this in other threads you know.

Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

rob

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #23 on: 28 November, 2016, 04:03:35 pm »
I need every advantage I can get.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #24 on: 28 November, 2016, 04:16:21 pm »
Didn't the team use them in another (low profile) race before the Tour in order to set a precedent?

If they did, I didn't notice much as I was four at the time.

I'll be honest, it was something that passed me by at the time as well - indeed, it was something that passed the commissaires by, which was entirely the plan. Set a precedent for using the clip-ons in a race where they weren't paying attention, then cry foul if they subsequently tried to ban them in the Tour. I only read about it relatively recently, but can't remember where. 

Quote
Samuel D makes an good point though about how people, teams and sponsors will always look for an edge.  I read Chris Boardman (in his olympic tech director role): his response to the UCI tightening down the regs on stuff was basically, "Good, it'll mean that everyone has to go after more esoteric gains, and we've got more budget so we'll do that better."  He didn't use so many words, of course.  An example of that would be Team GB's skinsuits: their 2008 ones got banned as being too futuristic, otherwise everyone would have been wearing them by 2012.  As it was, they came back to London with suits that were more conventional-looking but which cost several times the price - so banning the original suits was a blocker to fair competition, not an enabler.

This is the thing about aerobars - they're a relatively cheap technology. Banning them would only serve the interests of those with big budgets to spend on other less readily available tech.

Time trials generally, and the Hour record in particular, seem to me like an ideal area of the sport for allowing technology to be given pretty much full rein. Even at the local club end of the sport, TTs are dominated by aero equipment, so drawing arbitrary lines to ban one technology and not another are frankly a bit silly.

"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."