Author Topic: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start  (Read 17904 times)

zigzag

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #50 on: 29 November, 2016, 10:09:04 am »
i just realised - the fairing that i've had on my rear "disc" wheel helped me get a 6th place in 24hr tt and the prize money covered the cost of the fairing :D

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #51 on: 29 November, 2016, 10:12:37 am »
Amateur motorcycle racing has or had classes where all the bikes were one stock design, usually a cheap one like MZ, all fettled by a pool of mechanics and riders drew lots on the day for each bike. There are/were also classes where you could do pretty much what you wanted to the bike but at the end of the season, the winner's machine was sold for a fixed, cheap price – I remember it as £150 in the late '80s for souped up moped racing (or maybe that was MZs?) – to whoever wanted it. Motorbikes don't need to fit the rider in quite the same way so the first idea might not work but the second could. As for velomobiles, why not? If everyone's allowed them, the strongest riders will still win. And if some use them and others don't, then it would be interesting to see whether a mediocre rider in a velomobile could actually beat a world-class athlete on an upright bike. And the speed differentials, not to mention the visual variety, would enliven the spectacle.

A better example is the current GP situation where Moto2 and Moto3 are based on common items, motors as far as I can remember. The problem with the MZs in FLRC was that they rapidly got very expensive to prepare (relative to their perceived value). IIRC before I left UK £1000 was not excessive for engine prep. The other thing was the rule allowing all models but stipulating that the brakes had to conform with the model so chassis prep for the older models got a bit complicated (drum-braked Earles forks racing against disc-braked telescopic forks). I was quite keen when they announced the idea but rapidly lost interest on reading the rulebook. The cost of being competitive has always tended to be more important in any form of racing when the base specification is very restricted.

I don't really see why recumbent riders would want to mix with upright pro racers. They have a pretty exciting racing scene as far as I can see in some countries already. I'm not sure if either riders or constructors have anything to gain short term (it might just overstretch their resources). Long term is another matter but as one wise man said"long term we're all dead".
Yes, good points about escalating cost due to limited base, and even the rules where you can claim the winner's bike at the end of the series arguably favour competitors who can afford to lose a season's worth of bike. All potentially avoided, I suppose, by the drawing of lots for a random machine; as long as they are all maintained to an anonymously equal standard.

As for recumbentists wanting to race against uprights, they might not. I was thinking more of uprightists adopting recumbents to gain an advantage over their faster rivals.

In the end I really think there's room for both; restricted classes, whether that be rules against disc wheels or whatever, and open ride whatever you want as long it has no engine.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

rob

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #52 on: 29 November, 2016, 10:39:16 am »
Luckily, we have had a number of such close battles this season, so I could safely use that example ;)

But I think you'd admit that 30secs over 25 miles would take a LOT of effort in any other area to achieve. People drive hundreds of miles for a similar course advantage!

It's certainly nothing like the chasm of time between me and the top 3 at any race. So none of this impacts my personal performances. But think about when your lad starts racing; If he's losing to kids on faster bikes by less than a minute, what will you tell him? Will you stump up for the 2nd race bike? Should all the other parents do likewise?

I improved my 25m PB by 5 mins by lucking out on a really fast day on fast course.   It was about 4hrs in the car, but definitely worth it.

I just got junior to ride 20 miles with 2 café stops.   I can't see him wanting to race any time soon.

rob

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #53 on: 29 November, 2016, 10:41:31 am »
i just realised - the fairing that i've had on my rear "disc" wheel helped me get a 6th place in 24hr tt and the prize money covered the cost of the fairing :D

I think if any of us did this for the money it would be a long old time before we broke even.    I dread to think what the last 3 years have cost me.   I did get a load of silverware at the club lunch on Sunday, though.

Karla

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #54 on: 29 November, 2016, 10:54:29 am »
As MattC says, sports are an arbitrary set of rules that provide a substitute for war.  If I wanted to win the TdF without rules, I'd cruise round on a fast motorbike while nuking my opponents from orbit, before going on to win the FIFA world cup with a 100 player team (all armed with M16s).  W e need the rules because they're what define the sport.

However, people who want all the racers' bikes to look like their own bikes are getting it wrong.  What makes your bike 'normal' and someone else's bike 'deviant'?  I personally think the Trek Speed Concept that LEE posted looks great!  Anyway, big events have always acted as shop windows for manufacturers to show off their latest wares.  Look what happened when the UCI tried to limit the hour record to 1960s bikes: big-name attempts dried up, because nobody wanted to sponsor a serious attempt in order to show off the bikes they used to make 40 years ago.  Now it's back, there's a buzz about it, new attempts are being planned and some of the resulting research will probably trickle down.  That's a good thing.

Karla

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #55 on: 29 November, 2016, 11:02:37 am »
Luckily, we have had a number of such close battles this season, so I could safely use that example ;)

But I think you'd admit that 30secs over 25 miles would take a LOT of effort in any other area to achieve. People drive hundreds of miles for a similar course advantage!

It's certainly nothing like the chasm of time between me and the top 3 at any race. So none of this impacts my personal performances. But think about when your lad starts racing; If he's losing to kids on faster bikes by less than a minute, what will you tell him? Will you stump up for the 2nd race bike? Should all the other parents do likewise?

I improved my 25m PB by 5 mins by lucking out on a really fast day on fast course.   It was about 4hrs in the car, but definitely worth it.

I just got junior to ride 20 miles with 2 café stops.   I can't see him wanting to race any time soon.

I assume that if he does start racing, you'll lend him your disc wheel, and possibly request starts at opposite ends of the field so you have time to swap.  That seems to be the normal way of doing it.

You (Rob) did make a good point, that 'free' speed often anything but free.  The biggest aero improvements come from changing the position of your body - TT bikes allow you to put your body in an extreme position that may be very aero, but isn't natural and needs training into.  Put an untrained person on there and they won't go faster, they'll go slower due to the tight hip angle, and that's if they can reach the bars, and that's if they don't fall off.  Even if they manage to do that, they won't manage to keep that position for the length of a long event.  The improvements are there for the taking, but the rider has to do the work to adapt to them.

mattc

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #56 on: 29 November, 2016, 11:56:42 am »
Pharti,
You're arguing against a straw man here:

However, people who want all the racers' bikes to look like their own bikes are getting it wrong.

...

Look at what the OP actually wants:

This is purely my point of view.

TTs and road racing should use basically the same bike. Since tri-bars and disc wheels are banned in road racing, they should be banned in TTs as well.


This is not about stamping out "progress".

[We can argue about that another day :P ]
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Karla

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #57 on: 29 November, 2016, 12:01:20 pm »
No, I'm arguing against LEE, who said pretty much exactly that.  Though your and hubner's idea that RR/TT should use the same bike is also rather weak: they're two sides of a sport so have their own specialist bikes, just like XC, DH, CX, BMX, bike polo, cycle speedway, ...

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #58 on: 29 November, 2016, 12:11:09 pm »
i just realised - the fairing that i've had on my rear "disc" wheel helped me get a 6th place in 24hr tt and the prize money covered the cost of the fairing :D

Have you costed the tape?

Originally the CTT (RTTC) allowed discs, but not fairings (on the grounds that discs were structural but fairings purely aerodynamic additions).  I'm not sure how long it took them to realise quite how daft this was, but they eventually did.

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #59 on: 29 November, 2016, 12:36:39 pm »
No, I'm arguing against LEE, who said pretty much exactly that. 

I said this
It's a problem I have with TT.  It never stops being a test of equipment until you get to Pro-Team level (and even then there are "Marginal Gains").

Even as a test against yourself it's dubious, if you "upgrade".

An aero helmet makes a huge substantial difference, as do disc wheels.

I'm of the opinion that it should be done on "standard" bikes, in order to stop the escalation.  Clearly there are always marginal gains but the differences between a typical road bike and a dedicated TT bike are now extreme
.


Interesting comparison where all other things are equal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfEGiYD7ECU

I may as well do my local TTs on my steel tourer and just see how I can improve throughout the year.  Trying to compete is pointless when pro-level equipment (which some club members have) buys you 10 minutes over 25 miles.

If I upgraded my bike and bettered my times then what did I prove? 

The video above is actually a good example of the range of bikes that turn up at local events.  It's interesting to see that one bike can put almost 4 minutes into the other, in just 25 minutes.

I'm not saying there's a problem with TT, just that I have a problem with it.  I couldn't give a damn actually, I don't do it any more (They used to point at my single speed and saddlebag).
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #60 on: 29 November, 2016, 12:44:36 pm »
i just realised - the fairing that i've had on my rear "disc" wheel helped me get a 6th place in 24hr tt and the prize money covered the cost of the fairing :D

I think if any of us did this for the money it would be a long old time before we broke even.    I dread to think what the last 3 years have cost me.   I did get a load of silverware at the club lunch on Sunday, though.

sure, i gave this example as a pure coincidence, where an aerodynamic improvement paid for itself :)

Have you costed the tape?

good point, no, but only needed half a roll :P, thanks for giving me a hand

mattc

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #61 on: 29 November, 2016, 01:10:31 pm »
Though your and hubner's idea that RR/TT should use the same bike is also rather weak: they're two sides of a sport so have their own specialist bikes, just like XC, DH, CX, BMX, bike polo, cycle speedway, ...
Have you actually read the reasons for the idea? How about actually debating the real issues?

Just doing what others do is a pretty feeble reason for anything.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

rob

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #62 on: 29 November, 2016, 01:11:18 pm »
I used the same bike this year and last, but did change my helmet - both were stubby and not full on long tail lids.   I improved my 25mile PB by over 5 minutes and added 51 miles to my 24hr PB.

Karla

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #63 on: 29 November, 2016, 01:19:05 pm »
Though your and hubner's idea that RR/TT should use the same bike is also rather weak: they're two sides of a sport so have their own specialist bikes, just like XC, DH, CX, BMX, bike polo, cycle speedway, ...
Have you actually read the reasons for the idea? How about actually debating the real issues?

Just doing what others do is a pretty feeble reason for anything.

I have.  The reason boils down to: the proposers can't get over the use of some ~30 year old tech in bike racing.

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #64 on: 29 November, 2016, 02:04:04 pm »
The debate is a bit pointless in men's TTs. The records have crept up as a result of better equipment and better science. However, it's likely to become current if Bronwen Ewing or Jill Wilkinson exceed Beryl Burton's 12 Hour distance.

Whether we can say that the record is 'beaten' will become moot. The men's record has increased by about 40 miles since 1967 so the question will be what Beryl could have done with modern kit. If you look at pictures of Beryl, she had a very 'aero' stance, so the gains are possibly less than for the men.

Whoever takes the women 12 hour will be subject to the arguments above, but I think it's still a worthy aim.

mattc

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #65 on: 29 November, 2016, 02:07:10 pm »
It's not the age of the equipment that is the problem  ;D

As you say, motorbikes would be pretty good at winning TTs - even Steve McQueen had one of those! (were you alive then? I can't remember ... )

This is about the pointless creation of an extra category, that has no purpose beyond a very specialist branch of cyclesport.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Karla

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #66 on: 29 November, 2016, 02:44:08 pm »
... and triathlon which is much more popular and mainstream than audax

I'm glad to hear that you think that going faster is pointless, Matt, but kindly keep those funny ideas out of the racing section. 

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #67 on: 07 December, 2016, 02:06:19 pm »
As for velomobiles, why not? If everyone's allowed them, the strongest riders will still win. And if some use them and others don't, then it would be interesting to see whether a mediocre rider in a velomobile could actually beat a world-class athlete on an upright bike. And the speed differentials, not to mention the visual variety, would enliven the spectacle.

Just read this thread and this caught my eye:

Bradley Wiggins; Top Pro hr record 54.526 Km/h - indoor velodrome

Yanto; fat 52 yrs old at time of event mediocre commuter; personal best 54.3 Km/h - outdoor tarmac velodrome in Scunthorpe

On the continent overall I have never placed higher than 10th over a variety of different races, fastest velomobile riders are 10km/h faster than me.

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #68 on: 07 December, 2016, 02:31:47 pm »
At the end of the day we are left comparing watts. Even on a correctly calibrated ergometer, temperature and cooling will be part of the equation.

mattc

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #69 on: 07 December, 2016, 04:49:51 pm »
As for velomobiles, why not? If everyone's allowed them, the strongest riders will still win. And if some use them and others don't, then it would be interesting to see whether a mediocre rider in a velomobile could actually beat a world-class athlete on an upright bike. And the speed differentials, not to mention the visual variety, would enliven the spectacle.

Just read this thread and this caught my eye:

Bradley Wiggins; Top Pro hr record 54.526 Km/h - indoor velodrome

Yanto; fat 52 yrs old at time of event mediocre commuter; personal best 54.3 Km/h - outdoor tarmac velodrome in Scunthorpe

On the continent overall I have never placed higher than 10th over a variety of different races, fastest velomobile riders are 10km/h faster than me.
Was your PB over a whole hour?
(Or max speed? Or for one lap? )

I mainly ask as measured hour efforts are pretty rare (at least in the upright world, I know much less about HPV racing!)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #70 on: 07 December, 2016, 08:16:33 pm »
As for velomobiles, why not? If everyone's allowed them, the strongest riders will still win. And if some use them and others don't, then it would be interesting to see whether a mediocre rider in a velomobile could actually beat a world-class athlete on an upright bike. And the speed differentials, not to mention the visual variety, would enliven the spectacle.

Just read this thread and this caught my eye:

Bradley Wiggins; Top Pro hr record 54.526 Km/h - indoor velodrome

Yanto; fat 52 yrs old at time of event mediocre commuter; personal best 54.3 Km/h - outdoor tarmac velodrome in Scunthorpe

On the continent overall I have never placed higher than 10th over a variety of different races, fastest velomobile riders are 10km/h faster than me.
Was your PB over a whole hour?
(Or max speed? Or for one lap? )

I mainly ask as measured hour efforts are pretty rare (at least in the upright world, I know much less about HPV racing!)

That was average for an hour racing, unlike Sir Brad i couldn't keep to the black line or any line as I was overtaking other racers, so my actual over the ground speed was higher, but we use the length of one circuit on the black line to calculate speed/distance. It was also second race of the day with the previous race being a timed flying lap.  We also had a "friendly" in Derby in-door velodrome where i went faster, but they were two 20 minute races and the results were corrupted so I haven't linked to them.

On the continent the races can be up to 6hrs long.

Karla

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Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #71 on: 07 December, 2016, 09:04:16 pm »
One effect you'd have to consider is that a large number of riders going round a velodrome will create a circular tailwind. 

Believe it or not, two elite pursuiters in an olympic velodrome now ride fast enough that they are just about in each other's slipstream.

Re: Why disc wheels and tri-bars should have been banned from the start
« Reply #72 on: 07 December, 2016, 09:29:28 pm »
I guess you are referring to upright riders not velomobiles?

There is no tow available from a nicely faired racing velomobile/bike.