Sentencing lethal drivers was Re: Richard Ellis

[hellymedic]

http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/15015382.Tributes_paid_to_much_loved_father_and_husband_who_was_killed_in_crash/?ref=mr&lp=10

[Bianchi Boy]

I struggle with this sort of case. On the one hand is my initial reaction that they should be jailed for a long time and never drive again. Then I remember that I fell off my bike the other year when I was doing no hands and hit a bump in the road. If I had been driving I could could have killed someone with that level of distraction. As a society we are very sympathetic to drivers and I feel there needs to be change in the public perception of risk. Until this happens there will be no change in the sentencing. People must start to understand that when driving you are responsible for a machine capable of killing, and as such you have significant responsibilities.

BB

[Peter]

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/107534/phillip-moore-jailed-for-causing-fatal-collision-on-m6

On the face of it a comparable case - but a significantly different sentence.

[SoreTween]

The difference in sentence is down to the charge he faced - dangerous vs careless driving.  The sentence range available for each is different, see the link I posted above.

The question then is why was one charged dangerous and the other careless?  It is currently to be down to the whim of the CPS, there are no definitions or guidelines.  The long promised review of motoring offences is supposed to be looking at these definitions and sentences among other things.

[Peter]

Certainly!

[hellymedic]

AIUI the CPS is more likely to press a charge of careless driving in the hope of a more certain prosecution.
They don't like risking getting NO conviction by a jury of sympathetic motorists.

[mattc]

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/107534/phillip-moore-jailed-for-causing-fatal-collision-on-m6

On the face of it a comparable case - but a significantly different sentence.

OK, I've compared them.

Things in common:
1 vehicle, 1 death

Things that are different:
Almost everything else


Unless you want a purely bean-counting approach to sentencing, you shouldn't be surprised that these two cases produce different sentences.

[Peter]

I don't remember saying I was surprised, matt, but thank you anyway.  I really must go over my conversational remarks more thoroughly in future.

Oh, and things that are similar include INATTENTION.

[madcow]

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/107534/phillip-moore-jailed-for-causing-fatal-collision-on-m6

On the face of it a comparable case - but a significantly different sentence.

The driver was in charge of an HGV  and in the eyes of the law, HGV drivers are expected to show a higher standard of driving skill than car drivers.
Dunno why that should be , but that's the current thinking.
 The notion is that an HGV licence is vocational ( it is needed for the job and should be valued as such) and can be revoked permanently  by the Traffic Commissioners.
The responsibility of steering 40+ tonnes of vehicle and cargo should mean that better driving is taken as read , but as we know, that is not always the case.
You could say that HGV drivers are  punished more than car drivers -or car drivers are treated leniently.

[mattc]

Oh, and things that are similar include INATTENTION.

We're getting into opinion and personal judgement here - and that is part of the point, humans are all different, the justice system does depend on a lot of opinions.

I'd say the inattention was very different in nature. The car driver was distracted by unruly human beings in the car - whereas the HGV driver chose to fiddle with his radio.  I'd say they're different enough that human judges/jurors will react differently. (There are many other factors in this case). Maybe your view is different - que sera.

[Peter]

I don't have a particular view, matt.

[Gattopardo]

I struggle with this sort of case. On the one hand is my initial reaction that they should be jailed for a long time and never drive again. Then I remember that I fell off my bike the other year when I was doing no hands and hit a bump in the road. If I had been driving I could could have killed someone with that level of distraction. As a society we are very sympathetic to drivers and I feel there needs to be change in the public perception of risk. Until this happens there will be no change in the sentencing. People must start to understand that when driving you are responsible for a machine capable of killing, and as such you have significant responsibilities.

BB

Turning round, to tell your kids off while driving isn't a mere distraction.

[Bianchi Boy]

I struggle with this sort of case. On the one hand is my initial reaction that they should be jailed for a long time and never drive again. Then I remember that I fell off my bike the other year when I was doing no hands and hit a bump in the road. If I had been driving I could could have killed someone with that level of distraction. As a society we are very sympathetic to drivers and I feel there needs to be change in the public perception of risk. Until this happens there will be no change in the sentencing. People must start to understand that when driving you are responsible for a machine capable of killing, and as such you have significant responsibilities.

BB

Turning round, to tell your kids off while driving isn't a mere distraction.

This is what I mean by risk. You are doing a very risky thing and should not turn around. Society has to start taking this seriously and not regarding it as an accident. The driver had a choice.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

[madcow]

Exactly. a sensible driver would do exactly what I did once when my son was messing about.
Pull over to side of road , open door and invite them to sit on the roadside until they had calmed down.

[Gattopardo]

I struggle with this sort of case. On the one hand is my initial reaction that they should be jailed for a long time and never drive again. Then I remember that I fell off my bike the other year when I was doing no hands and hit a bump in the road. If I had been driving I could could have killed someone with that level of distraction. As a society we are very sympathetic to drivers and I feel there needs to be change in the public perception of risk. Until this happens there will be no change in the sentencing. People must start to understand that when driving you are responsible for a machine capable of killing, and as such you have significant responsibilities.

BB

Turning round, to tell your kids off while driving isn't a mere distraction.

This is what I mean by risk. You are doing a very risky thing and should not turn around. Society has to start taking this seriously and not regarding it as an accident. The driver had a choice.

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

I agree.

It clearly shows the driver was not in control of the vehicle, and made a decision to do something that endangered other road users.

[Gattopardo]

Exactly. a sensible driver would do exactly what I did once when my son was messing about.
Pull over to side of road , open door and invite them to sit on the roadside until they had calmed down.

Is sensible the right word? Conscientious I think is better.

[spindrift]

The driver got done for drink driving after she killed.

[Si S]

The driver got done for drink driving after she killed.

The combination of drugs in her system would probably fell a horse

[hellymedic]

I think she was under the influence of those drugs and alcohol in the second incident, several months after Richard was killed.

[Gattopardo]

Bet she will blame killing someone.

Maybe if she had been a better/conscious driver she wouldn't be in that situation.

Yes I lack any sympathy in this case.  Due to her complete disregard another road user is dead.  One that wouldn't be and should not have been killed.

[Si S]

I think she was under the influence of those drugs and alcohol in the second incident, several months after Richard was killed.

Yes, apologies if that was unclear

Bet she will blame killing someone.

spot on

[Gattopardo]

Still driving with fuck all regard to other road users.

[hubner]

Surely the biggest difference in these 2 deaths is one was a person in a car and the other was a cyclist.

[mattc]

Surely the biggest difference in these 2 deaths is one was a person in a car and the other was a cyclist.

It seems that way to members of a cycling forum, yes.

[hubner]

Surely the biggest difference in these 2 deaths is one was a person in a car and the other was a cyclist.

It seems that way to members of a cycling forum, yes.

It's like that to society in general.

In the case of the car driver/passenger death caused by another driver, the average person will be thinking "that could have been me when I was driving and had to stop in the hard shoulder".

In the case of the cyclist death caused by a driver, the average person will be will be thinking "that could have been me when I was driving and almost caused a crash because a moment of inattention, and cyclists put themselves in danger anyway".