Are we getting overcharged for New bikes

[basset]

Having just spent 3k on a new one 🤔I'm begin to think when you look at what you get compared to a motorcycle we are paying through the nose

[Ian H]

Economies of scale, I think. 

When I was in print I bought a press which was certainly less complicated in design and function than (say) a Ford Focus.  It cost over £300,000.  But then, they probably sell a dozen a year.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I spent nearly £1000 on a new bike (via Bike to work scheme). I spent less than that on second hand car.

If you chose to spend nearly £3k on a bike, you were choosing to spend at luxury extreme end of the market. To compare that to cars, you'd have to be comparing it to a Lamborghini, not a Ford Focus, ffs. At a guess you bought a high-end racing bike, that therefore one you bought a bike that is near identical to one ridden by the world's best pros.  Either that or you bought a Recumbent in which case the law of very low production runs applies.



 

[Dominic]

Also down to the popularity of cycling I think.  I went into a branch of Cycle Republic the other day, which I understand is a bike shop run by Halfords. I was gob smacked to see that it was selling bikes for £4k.  its run by Halfords!!!

But I also have to say that there is plenty of choice for a lot less money than £3k depending what you got of course.  I currently have a £1k bike on ride to work,  £3k is the type of sum I am looking to spend when retire on my dream, and last hopefully bike.

[citoyen]

If you chose to spend nearly £3k on a bike, you were choosing to spend at luxury extreme end of the market.

I'd say a £3k bike is more the equivalent of a BMW 5 Series - high end, yes, but not 'luxury'. 

Pro level bikes are more like £6k, and that's for the standard consumer spec - add race wheels to that and you're looking at another couple of grand on top.

If you want the cycling equivalent of a Lamborghini, you'll be looking at spending upwards of £10k on something like a Cipollini NK1K.

At a guess you bought a high-end racing bike, that therefore one you bought a bike that is near identical to one ridden by the world's best pros.

I presume Pieman is referring to his new Domane SL6. The SL frame is below the SLR in the range, and the consumer (H2) version of the SLR is in turn below the pro (H1) version. The number refers to the spec level, which is Ultegra in this case.

Bikes are definitely overpriced if compared like for like with cars but I think Ian's point about economies of scale is spot on. You might also say that cars are artificially cheap - no one pays the true cost of car ownership.

[Samuel D]

Well, you were! But willingly, as is normally the case.

Anything over about a grand is into seriously diminishing returns and often nets a bicycle less fit for purpose than one that is cheaper.

Take aero wheels. They are fantastically expensive, short-lived, and don’t remotely live up to their makers’ performance claims. I out-roll most people I ride with despite weighing 65 kg and having box-section rims with many round spokes. Some of these people have spent three grand on their wheels alone! This doesn’t prove my wheels are faster (almost certainly they are not) but it proves that any difference is negligible for sensible definitions of negligible.

Snake oil abounds.

The cycling press is bought, sycophantic, and dull-witted and last asked a good question in the early 90s.

People have more disposable income than before, and cycling is fashionable at the moment. Also fashionable is stuffing advanced electronics in everything whether it makes sense or not. Hence smart watches, smart fridges, and Di2. All of that costs wads of cash, but to make up for that it’s soon obsolete or dead.

British culture is well and truly over its bashfulness at displays of wealth. Platforms like Instagram were practically made to glorify consumerism. Showing off your possessions is the new normal.

In the Anglo-Saxon world, racing is the dominant cultural strain in cycling, and in racing marginal gains can always be notionally justified by some theoretical photo-finish that would add to your palmarès – never mind that your palmarès don’t extend beyond Strava.

What a time to be alive!

[DrMekon]

One hears rumours of wafer thin profit margins on vast turnovers at places like Planet X, and it doesn't look as crazy cheap as it used to. If you paid to much, I doubt it's because someone made a killing. Certainly not the LBS.

For me, what's telling is how much tech you get in MTB compared with road. Carbon everything plus posh shocks for similar money to a high end road bike.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I don't think there's much sense in comparisons like this. Sure, you could buy a motorcycle for the same money as your Domane but what do they have in common beyond two wheels?

[Karla]

I presume Pieman is referring to his new Domane SL6. The SL frame is below the SLR in the range, and the consumer (H2) version of the SLR is in turn below the pro (H1) version. The number refers to the spec level, which is Ultegra in this case.

I thought H1 and H2 referred to the geometry, H1 being the lo-pro?

Take aero wheels. They are fantastically expensive, short-lived, and don’t remotely live up to their makers’ performance claims. I out-roll most people I ride with despite weighing 65 kg and having box-section rims with many round spokes. Some of these people have spent three grand on their wheels alone! This doesn’t prove my wheels are faster (almost certainly they are not) but it proves that any difference is negligible for sensible definitions of negligible.

Snake oil abounds.

Your linked video explains precisely why a deep section wheel is more aerodynamic than a box section, why a disc is best of all, and why rim profile does actually make some difference - if not as much as raw depth.  You did actually watch it before posting, right? 

As for fantastically expensive, there's a heck of a lot of clear space between a £40 Open Pro and £3000 Lightweight Autobahn.  I picked up a Corima Aero+ wheelset for £400 secondhand five years ago and theyr'e still going strong.  Fragile?  You must be joking.

If you roll faster than your ride mates, it's due to something else because like it or not, your wheels are slower than theirs.

[citoyen]

I thought H1 and H2 referred to the geometry, H1 being the lo-pro?

Yes, you are right.

I could have sworn they also used different grades of carbon (for extra stiffness) but I've just double-checked and it seems I was mistaken.

ETA: I also appear to be getting my Domanes mixed up with my Emondas - the Emonda comes in H1 or H2, the Domane only comes in one fit, which they call H3. 

[mrcharly-YHT]

If you roll faster than your ride mates, it's due to something else because like it or not, your wheels are slower than theirs.

Probably none of them are very fast? Or he's comparing them using rolldown tests on hills.

For someone like me, who is happy if he is rolling at 24kph, aero rims are an utter joke. You have to be the sort of person who thinks that 32kph is a bit slow and 40kph is getting in the groove. If you are that sort of person, of course they have benefits. Measurable benefits, measurable using science.

[Karla]

Quite.  They're expensive and are an investment, but if you want to go fast, they're a good investment and can be scientifically demonstrated to be so - as opposed to Sam's clubmates, who don't prove anything as there are far too many other factors involved. 

Yes there's a bit of marketing mumbo jumbo around some of the new and shiny models, but that only puts them on a level with every other product in the entire western world.

[Samuel D]

If you roll faster than your ride mates, it's due to something else because like it or not, your wheels are slower than theirs.

Maybe it’s my dynamo hub?

I accept their wheels are probably* faster, but the difference is (a) vastly less than claimed or even independently tested in a wind tunnel, (b) trivial as shown by my rolling faster for sundry other reasons that nobody cares about since they’re not purchasable, and (c) bad value by any reasonable assessment.

You have to be the sort of person who thinks that 32kph is a bit slow and 40kph is getting in the groove. If you are that sort of person, of course they have benefits. Measurable benefits, measurable using science.

… they're a good investment and can be scientifically demonstrated to be so …

I doubt science can prove the investment quality of wheels but it might prove their speed. However, it’s not easy. What sort of science do you each suggest? Wind tunnels are misleading because the real world is aerodynamically filthy among other reasons.

Shopping for happiness does not work though most people don’t learn that in one lifetime.



* Only “probably”, because these people have also swallowed, sinker and all, the latest story about wider tyres being faster, whereas I am far more circumspect and doubt these tales apply at the high speeds and low yaw angles that prevail in situations where wheel aerodynamics matter most. These doubts are informed by an above-average interest in the subject.

[Kim]

I doubt science can prove the investment quality of wheels but it might prove their speed.

Can you not simply divide change in speed per watt by change in price?

[Karla]

My own personal calculation is that my Corimas - bought for what was a pretty standard secondhand price - have cost me about £60 per season's use, over and above the cost of buying a pair of Fulcrum 7s in their stead.  Hardly extortionate, is it? 

In fact, it occurs to me that at the time I bought them, I was gainfully employed doing a multifactorial analysis to determine a clear and unambiguous relationship between an output and one particular input variable, despite the presence of several other variables that influenced the result.  The kind of thing that Sam apparently thinks is impossible.

[zigzag]

with the deep carbon wheels there is a noticeable increase of speed, especially when approaching 40kph and above. however, the main advantage over alloy wheels is the remarkable increase in comfort (they feel smoooooth..), as you basically ride on a thin-walled suspension, absorbing the impact from holes and bumps on the road, which is a bonus to their aerodynamic shape.

[Hot Flatus]

Speed isn't everything.

My Zipps make a VEEEEERRRRRP sound. It's fucking awesome.

You can't put a price on that.

[basset]

"Shopping for happiness does not work though most people don’t learn that in one lifetime."

Totally agree but you really need to try some Zipps 💨💨💨😉

Totally my shout to buy it I don't begrudge the bike shop there 15%.

The comparison to a motorbike was because I'm looking for one in the near future and if you compare a 125 Honda for under £3000 think what you get , lights, engine digital clocks etc etc just made me think 🤔

[toontra]

Early adopters of top-end gear are doing the rest of us a favour.  The technology trickles down over time to improve the stuff that we can all (almost) can afford.

[Ian H]

My own personal calculation is that my Corimas - bought for what was a pretty standard secondhand price - have cost me about £60 per season's use,

Are you talking missed prize money? 


I suspect that quite a lot of the advantages of deep section wheels are down to the lighter, faster tyres people tend to fit on them. 

[Cudzoziemiec]

Digital clock? You never got a digital clock when I had motorbikes! But that reminds me of something I read long ago: apparently it costs about the same to develop a small motorbike as a large one, but the large one generally sells for several times the price. Partly this is due to economies of scale; a small bike will sell in millions around the world and big 4 designs will be licensed to smaller manufacturers in Africa, Asia, etc for decades after, whereas a big bike sells in small numbers in limited markets. But partly it's due to perception. Neither high-end bicycles nor snazzy motorbikes are Veblen goods, which sell in greater numbers the higher the price, but they can be underpriced for a given market, which will accordingly undervalue them.

[Karla]

My own personal calculation is that my Corimas - bought for what was a pretty standard secondhand price - have cost me about £60 per season's use,

Are you talking missed prize money? 

Were it not for me doing a bunbury and mistaking a randommer for the finish timekeeper* I'd be raking it in already this season!  The money I didn't win went towards a 600CC Kawasaki that, now I've got a disc wheel to supplement the Corimas, cost less than the wheelset on my TT bike.  Okay, it's a 1998 reg.  Also, the disc makes a better noise than the motorbike.

*He'd parked up shortly before the finish and was sitting motionless in his car, staring intently across the road, directly at a warning sign that looked suspiciously like a chequerboard 

[Cudzoziemiec]

Yebbut has the Kawa got a digital clock? 

(pics?)

[alexb]

If you chose to spend nearly £3k on a bike, you were choosing to spend at luxury extreme end of the market.

I'd say a £3k bike is more the equivalent of a BMW 5 Series - high end, yes, but not 'luxury'. 

Pro level bikes are more like £6k, and that's for the standard consumer spec - add race wheels to that and you're looking at another couple of grand on top.

If you want the cycling equivalent of a Lamborghini, you'll be looking at spending upwards of £10k on something like a Cipollini NK1K.

I'd say that even that is really just the lower end of the luxury range.

The real top end is occupied by the likes of Vanilla Cycles (http://www.thevanillaworkshop.com/vanilla-the-list/) wait time several years; Bohemian Cylces (http://www.bohemianbicycles.com/) I'm not even sure how you order one!; Richard Sachs (http://www.richardsachs.com/site/) notoriously opinionated, very traditional.
If you want state of the art carbon, you have Calfee (https://calfeedesign.com/) and Crumpton (http://www.crumptoncycles.com/)

There are other niche low-volume high-end builders around who are similarly exclusive. Hetchins, Woodrup would probably be the only UK equivalent and only Woodrup is still going: http://www.woodrupcycles.com/new-page-1

There are a bunch of new bloods rapidly coming up to speed - Feather Cycles, Hartley etc. but none of them have the same cachet (yet) as the top-end US builders.

For any of these bikes you need to budget at least £10,000 for a basic build.

[citoyen]

For any of these bikes you need to budget at least £10,000 for a basic build.

Did you know you can get an off-the-peg Parlee now for not much over £10k?

So very common.