Author Topic: LED room lighting (again)  (Read 22462 times)


hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #226 on: September 26, 2017, 01:20:05 am »
So how TF am I supposed to get rid of failed lamps?.
The Sainsbury's facility within a sensible distance has been withdrawn.
David took some old lamps to Sainsbury's, where he had previously disposed of these lamps to find a sign stating they no longer accepted them.
He brought them back and was VERY unhappy.
Sainsbury's is still on the recyclenow.com website as having the facility.
Brent's Recycling centre is 6 miles away, Harrow's is MUCH less but will stop taking from non-Harrow residents soon.

I am not supposed to put these in my grey landfill bin but I'm not prepared to send David on another wild goose chase to get rid of them.

Kim

  • An appetite for the epic, but no real stamina
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #227 on: September 26, 2017, 01:36:00 pm »
Our bathroom light bulb (decent but oldish CFL) expired in a puff of magic smoke on Sunday night.  I had a rummage in the lightbulbs box, and - ignoring the useless exotica - came up with a choice of either:
  • Countless 40W tungsten lamps we removed when we moved in
  • A 75W halogen lamp
  • A Tesco-branded CFL of unknown specification
  • An older looking CFL with "A BIT DIM" written on the base in marker pen

Tesco seemed like the best option, and it lasted hours before it started making unhealthy noises.  So halogen it was, pending a bit of lightbulb shopping.

Yesterday I went lightbulb shopping.  Remembering that Wilko sell lightbulbs and have a number of them plugged in and operating on display, I brought the flicker meter with me.  They all had a measurable 100Hz ripple (though ambient light made it hard to determine how severe it was), apart from - ironically - one of those vintage-effect LED filament things that are barakta's nemesis.  I gambled on a filament-inna-pearl-envelope which does a convincing impression of a Real Lightbulb, and having brought it home I'm actually quite impressed with it.  Not really what I wanted for the bathroom, thobut, so I've had to play musical lightbulbs with the bedroom.

I think what's needed is a visit to a Local Electrical Shop on a quiet afternoon to see if they'll let me audition a selection of lamps with the flicker meter.
I do find anything involving ball bearings oddly satisfying

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #228 on: September 26, 2017, 05:57:00 pm »
Ikea near by?

Kim

  • An appetite for the epic, but no real stamina
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #229 on: September 26, 2017, 05:58:36 pm »
Sort of.  In that that's a circle of hell I'd rather not delve into.
I do find anything involving ball bearings oddly satisfying

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #230 on: September 27, 2017, 08:33:42 pm »
Our bathroom light bulb (decent but oldish CFL) expired in a puff of magic smoke on Sunday night.  I had a rummage in the lightbulbs box, and - ignoring the useless exotica - came up with a choice of either:
  • Countless 40W tungsten lamps we removed when we moved in
  • A 75W halogen lamp
  • A Tesco-branded CFL of unknown specification
  • An older looking CFL with "A BIT DIM" written on the base in marker pen

Tesco seemed like the best option, and it lasted hours before it started making unhealthy noises.  So halogen it was, pending a bit of lightbulb shopping.

Yesterday I went lightbulb shopping.  Remembering that Wilko sell lightbulbs and have a number of them plugged in and operating on display, I brought the flicker meter with me.  They all had a measurable 100Hz ripple (though ambient light made it hard to determine how severe it was), apart from - ironically - one of those vintage-effect LED filament things that are barakta's nemesis.  I gambled on a filament-inna-pearl-envelope which does a convincing impression of a Real Lightbulb, and having brought it home I'm actually quite impressed with it.  Not really what I wanted for the bathroom, thobut, so I've had to play musical lightbulbs with the bedroom.

I think what's needed is a visit to a Local Electrical Shop on a quiet afternoon to see if they'll let me audition a selection of lamps with the flicker meter.


Our visual cortex is supposed to be too slow to recognise 100 us flicker;) but have heard you discuss this before. Why are the led filament thingies Barakta's nemesis? That's a new one on me?

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #231 on: September 27, 2017, 08:42:24 pm »
I can easily see 100Hz flicker as can about 4% of the population and a higher percentage than that get headache from it to a greater or lesser degree and it's linked to reading difficulties in children.

I am also sensitive to subtler changes in illuminance or ripple even if it's not actual on/off flicker which is more common.

Faux 1940s bulbs are often designed in such a way that they have a really harsh 100Hz flicker cos of how the controller electronics are designed.

Many autistic people can also see flicker, or are sensitive to it and get overload from it. People with migraine, epilepsy, and other disabilities may also have issues.  The lighting technology is massively outstripping the research on impact (short and long term) and regulations. People are often affected but don't realise that's why they're getting headaches and eyestrain.

I specifically have vestibular issues and a rare eye movement disorder which means I have no image stabilisation of my vision which means when I move my head I normally see everything a blur rather than static image. Under flickering light I get a stroboscopic effect and if the refresh rate is low or the change in illuminance is significant everything around me goes very stroboscopic and therefore distorted and I become extremely ill very quickly (severe migraine in under 5 mins without my blue lenses - with them I can manage an hour or two but get a headache for several hours afterwards).

Kim

  • An appetite for the epic, but no real stamina
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #232 on: September 27, 2017, 08:59:24 pm »
Our bathroom light bulb (decent but oldish CFL) expired in a puff of magic smoke on Sunday night.  I had a rummage in the lightbulbs box, and - ignoring the useless exotica - came up with a choice of either:
  • Countless 40W tungsten lamps we removed when we moved in
  • A 75W halogen lamp
  • A Tesco-branded CFL of unknown specification
  • An older looking CFL with "A BIT DIM" written on the base in marker pen

Tesco seemed like the best option, and it lasted hours before it started making unhealthy noises.  So halogen it was, pending a bit of lightbulb shopping.

Yesterday I went lightbulb shopping.  Remembering that Wilko sell lightbulbs and have a number of them plugged in and operating on display, I brought the flicker meter with me.  They all had a measurable 100Hz ripple (though ambient light made it hard to determine how severe it was), apart from - ironically - one of those vintage-effect LED filament things that are barakta's nemesis.  I gambled on a filament-inna-pearl-envelope which does a convincing impression of a Real Lightbulb, and having brought it home I'm actually quite impressed with it.  Not really what I wanted for the bathroom, thobut, so I've had to play musical lightbulbs with the bedroom.

I think what's needed is a visit to a Local Electrical Shop on a quiet afternoon to see if they'll let me audition a selection of lamps with the flicker meter.


Our visual cortex is supposed to be too slow to recognise 100 us flicker;) but have heard you discuss this before. Why are the led filament thingies Barakta's nemesis? That's a new one on me?
If I'm paying attention I can percieve flicker up to about 1kHz, given movement of the light source or some object it's illuminating, but 100Hz doesn't bother me if there's no movement.  Barakta seems to percieve flicker at hundreds of Hertz just by looking at the source, and it only seems to become completely indistinguishable from DC at about 6kHz (fast and dirty test with a red LED, she may respond differently at other wavelengths).  Plus her eye movement disorder means that she sees stroboscopic artefacts (like you'd get by panning a slow exposure camera) every time she moves her head under fickering light.

The problem with the LED filaments is twofold: Firstly, the simple glare of a bright, small light source, and with the vintage-effect lamps, typically placed in a way that it's hard to avoid looking at.  More pertinently, the filament is a long string of LEDs in series, which means it doesn't switch on until it has, say, 150V across it.  Combine with a lack of smoothing capacitor (either through cost-cutting or the size constraints of hiding the electronics in the cap of the lamp) and you end up with the lamp flickering at 2x mains frequency with a particularly obnoxious (ie. close to 50%) duty cycle.
I do find anything involving ball bearings oddly satisfying

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #233 on: September 27, 2017, 10:46:21 pm »
Our bathroom light bulb (decent but oldish CFL) expired in a puff of magic smoke on Sunday night.  I had a rummage in the lightbulbs box, and - ignoring the useless exotica - came up with a choice of either:
  • Countless 40W tungsten lamps we removed when we moved in
  • A 75W halogen lamp
  • A Tesco-branded CFL of unknown specification
  • An older looking CFL with "A BIT DIM" written on the base in marker pen

Tesco seemed like the best option, and it lasted hours before it started making unhealthy noises.  So halogen it was, pending a bit of lightbulb shopping.

Yesterday I went lightbulb shopping.  Remembering that Wilko sell lightbulbs and have a number of them plugged in and operating on display, I brought the flicker meter with me.  They all had a measurable 100Hz ripple (though ambient light made it hard to determine how severe it was), apart from - ironically - one of those vintage-effect LED filament things that are barakta's nemesis.  I gambled on a filament-inna-pearl-envelope which does a convincing impression of a Real Lightbulb, and having brought it home I'm actually quite impressed with it.  Not really what I wanted for the bathroom, thobut, so I've had to play musical lightbulbs with the bedroom.

I think what's needed is a visit to a Local Electrical Shop on a quiet afternoon to see if they'll let me audition a selection of lamps with the flicker meter.


Our visual cortex is supposed to be too slow to recognise 100 us flicker;) but have heard you discuss this before. Why are the led filament thingies Barakta's nemesis? That's a new one on me?
If I'm paying attention I can percieve flicker up to about 1kHz, given movement of the light source or some object it's illuminating, but 100Hz doesn't bother me if there's no movement.  Barakta seems to percieve flicker at hundreds of Hertz just by looking at the source, and it only seems to become completely indistinguishable from DC at about 6kHz (fast and dirty test with a red LED, she may respond differently at other wavelengths).  Plus her eye movement disorder means that she sees stroboscopic artefacts (like you'd get by panning a slow exposure camera) every time she moves her head under fickering light.

The problem with the LED filaments is twofold: Firstly, the simple glare of a bright, small light source, and with the vintage-effect lamps, typically placed in a way that it's hard to avoid looking at.  More pertinently, the filament is a long string of LEDs in series, which means it doesn't switch on until it has, say, 150V across it.  Combine with a lack of smoothing capacitor (either through cost-cutting or the size constraints of hiding the electronics in the cap of the lamp) and you end up with the lamp flickering at 2x mains frequency with a particularly obnoxious (ie. close to 50%) duty cycle.

Barakta and Kim

That's fascinating. And quite remarkable to perceive flicker up to 1 or even be aware up to 6 kHz. Makes me feel sensorily inadequate, although given that even I am quite fuzzy about lighting that may well be a blessing in disguise as we make 'progress'.

Had a quick chat with Sue about this too, as she spent the last xy years working with children with autism. Apparently they had high frequency lighting in their room - unfortunately not specified throughout the whole school she said, leading to some of the children just having a whole additional set of unnecessary challenges.

I must admit that I've been amazed at the crappy 'drivers' in LED bulbs. I would have thought that every manufacturer would just use a small cheap switch mode supply. Simply rectifying the ac is not efficient and bound to give a nasty output.

I'll comment on cfl's in the other thread.

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #234 on: September 27, 2017, 11:33:45 pm »
..... Combine with a lack of smoothing capacitor (either through cost-cutting or the size constraints of hiding the electronics in the cap of the lamp) and you end up with the lamp flickering at 2x mains frequency with a particularly obnoxious (ie. close to 50%) duty cycle.
The lower the duty cycle, the more obnoxious, in my experience.

Particularly evil are some car stop/ tail lights (VW) where the same brightness is used for both, but with a 10% duty cycle at 100 Hz for the tail light, and on all the time when braking. The 9 ms off-time is more likely to annoy other drivers than shorter off times. Of course, 9 ms off-time is only just shorter than you get with LEDs run from 50 Hz, half-wave rectified.

Quote from: Kim
Paging Diver300.  Diver300 to the GSM Trimphone, please...

fruitcake

  • some kind of fruitcake
    • Bailey
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #235 on: October 02, 2017, 11:18:26 am »
So how TF am I supposed to get rid of failed lamps?

Hand them in at the information desk of any branch of PCWorld. Curry's will also accept them. They won't charge you for disposal.

Curry's/PCWorld have a policy of accepting any Ewaste for processing, whether or not they supplied it, as the easiest way for them to comply with WEEE law. You can give them any dead electronic items.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #236 on: October 02, 2017, 12:55:17 pm »
Thanks!

Woofage

  • Ain't no hooves on my bike.
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #237 on: October 02, 2017, 01:10:33 pm »
Anyone know of a good source of 12V transformers suitable to drive LED spotlights? I want to replace some halogen lights in a display cabinet with LEDs.

TIA.
Pen Pusher

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #238 on: October 02, 2017, 01:12:54 pm »
..... Combine with a lack of smoothing capacitor (either through cost-cutting or the size constraints of hiding the electronics in the cap of the lamp) and you end up with the lamp flickering at 2x mains frequency with a particularly obnoxious (ie. close to 50%) duty cycle.
The lower the duty cycle, the more obnoxious, in my experience.

Particularly evil are some car stop/ tail lights (VW) where the same brightness is used for both, but with a 10% duty cycle at 100 Hz for the tail light, and on all the time when braking. The 9 ms off-time is more likely to annoy other drivers than shorter off times. Of course, 9 ms off-time is only just shorter than you get with LEDs run from 50 Hz, half-wave rectified.

I really hate low refresh car tail lights. Not all of them do it, but some do it horribly and they're painful to look at. It's a good thing I can't/don't drive (mostly cos my vision is trippy as hec) cos they would be problematic!

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #239 on: October 02, 2017, 03:10:15 pm »
Anyone know of a good source of 12V transformers suitable to drive LED spotlights? I want to replace some halogen lights in a display cabinet with LEDs.

TIA.

I replaced a toroidal transformer with one of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/COOLWEST-Supply-Driver-Transformer-Flexible/dp/B016KFT536/ref=pd_nav_hcs_bia_t_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=X2PP2K8QZ03WTRHVZVFQ  to drive 4 MR16 leds.

You just have to be careful of the startup current and not skimp on the capacity of the driver.

However, I recently saw some MR16s in a supermarket that ran on ac or dc so wouldn't need a change of the transformer.  Could have been these https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/294361030  but the description is wrong as it says 240v!!

These https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Lighting/d220/LED+12V+MR16+Lamps/sd3209/Integral+LED+12V+Glass+MR16+GU5.3+Lamp/p25380  definitely run on 12 V ac


Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #240 on: October 25, 2017, 05:45:26 pm »
Just checked and light bulbs can't be recycled, at least here. You have to take them to the tip. Possibly they actually mean LEDs or CFLs as opposed to the old halogen bulbs that have just blown chez Cudzo, but they don't say and most likely the binmen wouldn't take it anyway. Not surprising, after all they don't even take brown plastic.
Pleasure spreads out on the map and the knapsack is full of joy.

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #241 on: October 25, 2017, 06:46:05 pm »
Just checked and light bulbs can't be recycled, at least here.

That'll be because the recycling facility is just to busy with lightbulb jokes.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #242 on: October 25, 2017, 06:52:14 pm »
So how TF am I supposed to get rid of failed lamps?

Hand them in at the information desk of any branch of PCWorld. Curry's will also accept them. They won't charge you for disposal.

Curry's/PCWorld have a policy of accepting any Ewaste for processing, whether or not they supplied it, as the easiest way for them to comply with WEEE law. You can give them any dead electronic items.

The nearest Currys/PC World is over 3 miles away.

The very first Dixon's shop opened up about a mile from here but is no more.

Such is progress!

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #243 on: November 10, 2017, 10:57:09 pm »
Yet another kitchen R63 down, after 193 days...

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #244 on: November 30, 2017, 04:26:27 pm »
I've just had a "100W" LED bulb fail, after about 10000 to 12000 hours of use.  Strictly speaking, it hasn't failed, but occasionally it will flicker very annoyingly, and I suspect it's only a matter of time before it fails, probably with me halfway down the stairs, so I'm preemptively replaced it.

It was a Tiwin 13W E27 super bright LED Bulb, which was supposedly popular in Germany, according to the Amazon webpage (I bought if from them, but they no longer seem to stock it).

I've replaced it with a Philips 100W warm LED bulb, bought from John Lewis for £7 compared to the £11 the other one cost me from Amazon.  It's also definitely brighter than the older lamp was, although that may simply be that the ratings are lower.

The Tiwin claimed between 1200 and 1400 lumens for a 13W actual, 100W equivalent, whereas Philips claim 1521 lumens for their 13W actual 100W equivalent.

I'm not complaining too much about a 10000+ hour lifetime, although they claimed 25000 hours average lifetime, and it's way below that.

The same Philips bulb appears to be £6 from Amazon, so prices are clearly still dropping.
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #245 on: November 30, 2017, 04:31:57 pm »
The Philips Hue bulbs are claimed to last about 18000 hours or 17 years at three hours per day. I hope so at £25 a pop for temperature adjustable and £12 a pop for plain dimmable ones. We will see.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #246 on: November 30, 2017, 04:32:50 pm »
Sainsbury's now stock the R63 7w (60w equivalent) E27 fitting, lamps that adorn my kitchen for £5.

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #247 on: November 30, 2017, 06:58:18 pm »
I must admit, I've got slightly more faith that lamps from large high street retailers, like Sainsburys and John Lewis, will prove to be more reliable, and possibly live up to some of the expectations.

On this occasion, I needed a particularly "bright" bulb, in the 100W(ish) category, and for some reason I had problems with other retailers being able to supply these.  Even Amazon stymied me, because all of the remotely convenient Amazon lockers were full, and I know a light bulb is not going to fit through my letterbox !
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #248 on: December 06, 2017, 09:40:42 pm »
We've just had one of the Philips LED lights fail. It's on an automatic light switch in the hall, so not all that many hours, but lots of starts.

It looks something like this:-

I prised off the bulb bit at the top, which is just a diffuser and there's nothing inside it. Level with the top of the white bit is a flat aluminium disk, push fitted into an aluminium cone that is inside the white bit, to dissipate the heat. The LEDs are on an aluminium circuit board screwed flat down to the aluminium disk, and plugged into the electronics that are inside the white bit.

Two of the 8 LEDs1 had burned, one significantly, and one just has a small black dot. Neither conducts.

All 8 LEDs are in series. I've removed the burned ones and shorted out where they were, and it now works. If the electronics has been sensibly designed, and gives a constant current, I'll have bulb of 75% of the power, that should stay a bit cooler.

If the electronics hasn't been well designed, there will be a lot more current than intended flowing, and I would have expected it to fail instantly. I hope there isn't too big a risk of this:-
(click to show/hide)

P.S. I am not Big Clive.

1) Technically LED clusters, as each has two LEDs in series.
Quote from: Kim
Paging Diver300.  Diver300 to the GSM Trimphone, please...

Re: LED room lighting (again)
« Reply #249 on: December 08, 2017, 07:37:32 am »
Someone somewhere else pointed out that a well designed LED lightbulb built with quality components would last so long that basically the lightbulb manufacturers would be looking at a vastly shrinking market compared to what they had with incandescents or CFLs. Basically you replace all your bulbs with LEDs then don't buy any more for at least 25 years! Hence there is no driver for them to make them as well as they could.
Plus a lot of people want to buy them for £1 and then complain that they go pop in a year or less.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.