Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: Oxford_Guy on 25 July, 2019, 10:19:49 pm
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Received an email from Mercian today to say that my Strada Speciale frame is finally ready and they sent a picture of the frame:
(https://i.imgur.com/QF4qLiQ.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/QF4qLiQ.jpg)
This was ordered back in June last year, so wasn't far of the 12 months waiting time I was expecting, so in time for my 50th birthday later this year.
Here's my original thread (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=108356.0) about being fitted for it (and later agonizing over colour/paint scheme choices - in the end I decided to go for colourful, but simple, partly to better show off the beautiful lugs). Paint is #63 Orange Pearl Flam (inc. forks, which I've not seen) and #22 White Enamel HT/ST/lug lining and fills. Other lug lining #18 Gunmetal Grey Poly, as thought black seemed a bit stark, but not sure that they've applied that yet.
Hope to be able to get it kitted out with all the components I've been hunting down over the last 12 months soon, mostly early-mid 2000s Campagnolo 10-speed bits
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That's a beautiful thing.
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Yummy.
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Quiz: What is the four letter word, to which adding a letter to the start makes it the antonym of the original word?
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Looks good.
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It does indeed, but 12 months to make a bike is a heck of a long time. When I was in the market for some lugly (thanks Ham) steel earlier this year, I phoned Mercian. The bloke on the other end was a bit vague about lead times. "I'm not sure. It was 10 months but I think it better than that now." OWTTE.
I went to Bob Jackson instead.
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I was aware it was going to be around 12 months lead time when I ordered it, but wasn't in any great hurry. It"s given me time to have a good think about and then source all the components I want - just got the final part last week!
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All the right colours in all the right places. :thumbsup:
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All the right colours in all the right places. :thumbsup:
Took me long enough to decide, but am very happy with the result. Components will be silver alloy (except SPD-SL pedals) and a little titanium. Threaded headset (Record) and quill stem (Nitto).
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I see dt bosses but assume you’ll be using ergos. Do Mercian not offer cable bosses on the head tube? Even if they did, I suppose dt bosses give you another option.
No racks or ‘guards on this baby!
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Very nice indeed.
12 months isn't unreasonable for frame (these days).
My Swallow took a bit longer, (due to staff turnover I think)
something like a Demon has a waiting list of [ages] (although that is in a whole different league of spendy)
Note to self : don't look at other frames and question your choice of colour :facepalm:
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I see dt bosses but assume you’ll be using ergos. Do Mercian not offer cable bosses on the head tube? Even if they did, I suppose dt bosses give you another option.
Yes, I'll be using 10-speed Ergos (the older pre-Escape/Powershift type with multiple shifting in both directions), but with Campagnolo DT cable stops - I like the look and doesn't rule out ever using DT shifters. Mercian do offer cable bosses by default, though.
No racks or ‘guards on this baby!
Nope, keeping it stripped to basics, intended usage is as a summer road bike. I have a Hewitt Cheviot tourer with guards and rack mounts for wet weather/load hauling. The Strada Speciale will take up to 28mm tyres, though.
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The rear stay/seat cluster is beautiful.
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Yes, I'll be using 10-speed Ergos (the older pre-Escape/Powershift type with multiple shifting in both directions),,,,
Second hand, or NOS (New Old Stock)?
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Yes, I'll be using 10-speed Ergos (the older pre-Escape/Powershift type with multiple shifting in both directions),,,,
Second hand, or NOS (New Old Stock)?
I have a set of (barely) used silver alloy Veloce levers in very good condition, but also a set of NOS Record bodies with refurbished Chorus carbon levers of slightly later vintage (both 10 speed) - the later apparently have ball bearings rather than bushings, but will probably use the former for style, I also prefer the feel of the metal levers
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The rear stay/seat cluster is beautiful.
That's one of the reasons I went for the contrasting white seat tube, to show that off better
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The rear stay/seat cluster is beautiful.
That's one of the reasons I went for the contrasting white seat tube, to show that off better
Good call
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It's exactly the same colour scheme I chose for my Super Vincitore in 1989.
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It's exactly the same colour scheme I chose for my Super Vincitore in 1989.
Have you been happy with the choice?
Does yours even have gunmetal grey poly lining?
BTW frame is 53 c-t, non-oversize Reynolds 853 Pro Team, threaded for a 1" headset.
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It's exactly the same colour scheme I chose for my Super Vincitore in 1989.
Have you been happy with the choice?
Its first respray, whenever it was (pre-2003), was something in gunmetal and green, so probably not. Or maybe I just fancied a change.
For its last (both most recent and final) repair and respray I delivered it to Mercian, specified the repairs and then spent ten minutes wandering round the showroom before plumping for "like that red tandem" so it's now like this (but with extra scratches) (https://live.staticflickr.com/7268/7453594520_2be60c3676_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/cmDBYm)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/2229/2149249160_2ac1a5ff19.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/4gVsU1)
Does yours even have gunmetal grey poly lining?
It was a long time ago, so I don't even know.
BTW frame is 53 c-t, non-oversize Reynolds 853 Pro Team, threaded for a 1" headset.
Mine was 653, which is why there were repairs and resprays. It's now not so 653. After the last respray they put a 531 decal on it.
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That is lovely. Mercians are the most beautiful frames I have seen - with the possible exception of Hetchins when Alf still had his shop in Southend. I recall being utterly bowled over by Charlotte's beautiful fixie all those years ago when she was a cyclist... ;)
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My new Strada Speciale has now been built-up, received this photo from Grant today, hope to collect it from Derby next week, will post more pics then (in the gallery section).
[click to expand]
(https://i.imgur.com/9yOBQS8.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/9yOBQS8.jpg)
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nice!
cheers
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That's a little moment moment right there...
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I’m in Derby. I wouldn’t mind picking it up for you...
Looks lush. Enjoy.
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Paul, you could test ride it for him!
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Paul, you could test ride it for him!
You guys... :)
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You think they're joking ???
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One very small suggestion from me. I’d suggest obtaining some cable /frame protector thingumies to stop the gear cables wearing the paint on the head tube. A friend of mine recently built up a Vincitore, and the rubbing became evident quite soon. BBB I think do some that don’t need the cable disconnected.
By the way, this isn’t a Mercian specific issue, it applies to any frame without cable guides actually on the lower head tube lug.
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True. I had Mercian braze on some loop-type guides when they resprayed mine for me a few years back.
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first blemish in the paintwork = tears before bedtime.
Do you have touch-in paint?
cheers
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first blemish in the paintwork = tears before bedtime.
And then a certain amount of relief that you don't need to be precious about it any more. Admittedly there may have been a certain amount of bad swears when, on the way home from the bike shop, I caught the crossbar of my shiny new Brompton with a booted foot and put a minor scuff in the paint...
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I watched from just-too-far-away-to-stop-it as my Mercian, only weeks after a respray, rolled away from whatever I had propped it against and tilted against the next nearest thing - being the corner of a wall - and continued to roll while the wall took a long, straight, deep shaving of paint off the side of the top tube.
Did I laugh and put it down to experience?
I did not.
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Dented the seatube on my Bob Jackson 200k into a 400k. The next 200k was accompanied by intermittent cursing. I started a thread on the CTC forum about it, it has a sticker covering it now.
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True. I had Mercian braze on some loop-type guides when they resprayed mine for me a few years back.
My Hewitt Cheviot came with those, but I found that they just seemed to destroy the cable housings really quickly, so I bypass them now and just use some soft spiral cable housing protector thingys to try to preserve the paintwork, which seems to be working
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One very small suggestion from me. I’d suggest obtaining some cable /frame protector thingumies to stop the gear cables wearing the paint on the head tube. A friend of mine recently built up a Vincitore, and the rubbing became evident quite soon. BBB I think do some that don’t need the cable disconnected.
By the way, this isn’t a Mercian specific issue, it applies to any frame without cable guides actually on the lower head tube lug.
I've got some white Jagwire Tube Top things, like this, that I might use: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jagwire-X4-Cable-Tube-Tops/dp/B00GTXC7J4
In the past I've instead use some Fibrax spiral things, like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/FIBRAX-Spiral-Frame-Protector-BLACK/dp/B014D605J2
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first blemish in the paintwork = tears before bedtime.
I managed to put a big scrape on my Hewitt Cheviot a few weeks after I first got it (over 10 years ago) following one of my first "clipless moments" at some traffic lights. Was not a happy bunny. Am now much more used to both SPD and SPD-SL pedals (the Mercian has the latter), so hopefully this won't happen at least!
Do you have touch-in paint?
No, don't think Mercian supply this (all paint is hand-mixed I think), but could ask, I guess...
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I've got some white Jagwire Tube Top things, like this, that I might use: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jagwire-X4-Cable-Tube-Tops/dp/B00GTXC7J4
In the past I've instead use some Fibrax spiral things, like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/FIBRAX-Spiral-Frame-Protector-BLACK/dp/B014D605J2
I use/used both of those and although they do a good job of slowing the paint wear down they didn't stop it, if you want to preserve it long term it's better to cover it. Helicopter tape carefully cut and applied isn't noticeable unless you're looking for it.
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Helicopter tape does a much better job of staying in the right place, too.
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Do you have touch-in paint?
No, don't think Mercian supply this (all paint is hand-mixed I think), but could ask, I guess...
It can be worth trying both car touch-up paint and Humbrol-type enamels. Ford Electric Current Red is a pretty-good match for the red on my Mercian, and Humbrol number 2 emerald is good for my older, green Pompino. You wouldn't immediately spot where I've applied either of those. However, the Sable Brown Pearl on my 1983 Holdsworth Mistral is still proving a challenge :-[
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Do you have touch-in paint?
No, don't think Mercian supply this (all paint is hand-mixed I think), but could ask, I guess...
It can be worth trying both car touch-up paint and Humbrol-type enamels. Ford Electric Current Red is a pretty-good match for the red on my Mercian, and Humbrol number 2 emerald is good for my older, green Pompino. You wouldn't immediately spot where I've applied either of those. However, the Sable Brown Pearl on my 1983 Holdsworth Mistral is still proving a challenge :-[
The white enamel head tube and seat tube should be easy to find a match for, but the flamboyant orange pearl will be much trickier I think
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You never know. You might be lucky, and you might not (https://www.amazon.co.uk/XtremeAuto-TANGO-ORANGE-PEARL-Resistant/dp/B073MTBXLN/ref=asc_df_B073MTBXLN/). Bit expensive to find out though.
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The white enamel head tube and seat tube should be easy to find a match for,
You'd think so, but that's not my experience, even if you used the exact same paint the chances are the the effects of ageing will still make it STAND OUT - Well stand out to the owner, in all likelihood no one else will notice unless you point it out. I've given up trying to disguise paint loss, instead painting stars in a contrasting colour to cover any bare metal.
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The white enamel head tube and seat tube should be easy to find a match for,
You'd think so, but that's not my experience, even if you used the exact same paint the chances are the the effects of ageing will still make it STAND OUT - Well stand out to the owner, in all likelihood no one else will notice unless you point it out. I've given up trying to disguise paint loss, instead painting stars in a contrasting colour to cover any bare metal.
That's not a bad idea, probably looks better than a bad attempt at matching! A green might contrast well with the orange, black with white etc.
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In case anyone is interested, this is pretty much the full spec (apart from detailed geometry) and components, as fitted:
Frame: Mercian Strada Speciale - 53cm centre-to-top
Tubing: Reynolds 853 Pro Team (forks and stays are also 853)
NB: has chain peg braze-on on inside RH seat stay, also has braze-on for front-derailleur and 2 x bottle cage mounts
Campagnolo Record 1" threaded headset
Nitto M106 NAS drop bars (42cm width)
Fizik Tempo Microtex Bondcush Classic 3mm bar tape
Nitto Pearl quill stem (90mm length)
Campagnolo Veloce 10-speed shifters (2006-era)
Campagnolo Chorus (differential) brake callipers (pre-skeleton, 2006-era) with Swissstop Race Pro pads
Gilles Berthoud Galibier leather saddle (black), with titanium rails
Campagnolo Chorus titanium seatpost 27.2mm diameter, 220mm long
Nitto R 'Racing' stainless steel bottle cage (I have two, but only one is currently mounted)
Campagnolo Chorus 10 speed rear derailleur (medium cage)
Campagnolo Centaur 10 speed 12-27 cassette
Campagnolo Record Ultra Narrow 10 speed Chain
Campagnolo Veloce 10 speed chainset with 50/34 chain rings
Campagnolo Centaur 10 speed Front Derailleur
Shimano Dura Ace PD-9000 SPD-SL pedals
Campagnolo Chorus hubs (32 hole)
Mavic Open Pro C rims
Schwalbe high pressure rim tape (18mm)
DT Swiss spokes
Veloflex Master 25mm tyres
Silcia Latex inner tubes
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Finally collected my Mercian Strada Speciale from Derby today, it looks stunning in the flesh - I dithered for ages over which colour to go for and whether to get a barbers pole or not, but I'm 100% happy with the final paint scheme I went for.
Only possible issue encountered so far - the front derailleur outer cage is very, very close to the tips of the teeth of the outer chainring, the FD might possibly need to be moved up a fraction.
[click to expand]
(https://i.imgur.com/n39Pkkw.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/n39Pkkw.jpg)
The paintjob is gorgeous
(https://i.imgur.com/A802l1s.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/A802l1s.jpg)
Now safely home
(https://i.imgur.com/JrpNdeC.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/JrpNdeC.jpg)
They did actually supply some touch-up paint, without me asking - both the white enamel and and the top orange layer of the flamboyant paint (not the silver under layer), they said I would need a heat source to set it properly, but that a hair dryer or heater might do
(https://i.imgur.com/tMJPJwf.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/tMJPJwf.jpg)
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If one uses the Campagnolo front changer setting tool the changer will be close to the teeth on the big ring.
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If one uses the Campagnolo front changer setting tool the changer will be close to the teeth on the big ring.
I suspect Mercian did indeed use that tool, I'll see how it works out in practice this weekend
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Not shabby. Not shabby at all.
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It looks great, I hope you have many happy kilometres together.
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If one uses the Campagnolo front changer setting tool the changer will be close to the teeth on the big ring.
I suspect Mercian did indeed use that tool, I'll see how it works out in practice this weekend
Hmmm... not sure I actually want to ride it until the front derailleur is moved up a bit - the tips of the teeth of the outer chain ring are actually hitting the bottom of the cage in some positions. Not sure that the limits are set correctly either, for the cage to be able to go over that far. Bit of a poor show from Mercian :-(
[click to expand images]
(https://i.imgur.com/4kF0zaG.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/4kF0zaG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/avjtask.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/avjtask.jpg)
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It’ does look a tad low, 10 second job to move it up a bit.
Personally, I’d loosen the attachment bolt just a little, then use a screwdriver or similar as a lever to push the mechanism up.
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You’ll likely have to release the cable first.
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the cable ought to be slack when the small chainring is selected. Np need to release the pinch bolt (which risks fraying the cable) a turn or two on the barrel adjuster will make enough slack for the (small) FD height adjustment required.
Possibly the paint is still a bit soft and the bolt for the FD has lost tension because the paint has squidged out of the joint slightly, and the FD has been pulled down slightly by cable tension; it happens often. Cable tension is very high with campag front mechs anyway and when shifting onto the big ring with ulltrashift it is easy to go one click too far and leave the cable under monster tension.
As a rule all new builds ought to have a bolt check after about 100 miles or so. You can largely avoid the necessity for this by scraping paint off stuff before it is fitted and/or grossly overtightening stuff, but that raises other issues.
cheers
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Thanks for the feedback, whilst it sounds like a pretty straightforward job to sort, think I may get my LBS to take a look, as I don't trust myself to not muck something up and damage the paint or something.
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I remember it being an absolute mare to set the FD height on my old Hewitt. The (clamp-on) front mech slipped until I really mullered it down. Turned out the paint was a bit soft and the paint was slipping over the metal, rather than the clamp slipping over the paint. When I removed it years later there were great welts in the paint. There can be a lot of tension involved.
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I understand new paint can be soft, touch up paint definitely takes several months to dry off properly.
Scrapping off the paint sounds a bit drastic, maybe just sand off the top clear layer or use a bit of chalk for grip.
And/or roughen up the inside of the clamp.
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Fixie!
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1x is another option (until the paint hardens), traditional bike with a modern twist.
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Posted some more pics in the Members Gallery (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=17.msg2426250#msg2426250)
A local bike shop (Beeline, Oxford) had a go at adjusting the front derailleur (moved it up a bit, mostly). Think it seemed okay on a short 26 mile ride at the weekend, though I did drop the chain once (at quite a slow cadence when slower to a stop, so may have been partially my fault) and a few times was hesitant to change up into the big ring (only partially picked-up), so I think perhaps the limit screws also need adjusting?
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One very small suggestion from me. I’d suggest obtaining some cable /frame protector thingumies to stop the gear cables wearing the paint on the head tube. A friend of mine recently built up a Vincitore, and the rubbing became evident quite soon. BBB I think do some that don’t need the cable disconnected.
By the way, this isn’t a Mercian specific issue, it applies to any frame without cable guides actually on the lower head tube lug.
Like this?
(https://i.imgur.com/FwAFhhS.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/FwAFhhS.jpg)
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One very small suggestion from me. I’d suggest obtaining some cable /frame protector thingumies to stop the gear cables wearing the paint on the head tube. A friend of mine recently built up a Vincitore, and the rubbing became evident quite soon. BBB I think do some that don’t need the cable disconnected.
By the way, this isn’t a Mercian specific issue, it applies to any frame without cable guides actually on the lower head tube lug.
Like this?
Absolutely, yes.
Ref your front mech, I always use a chain catcher just in case.
(https://i.imgur.com/FwAFhhS.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/FwAFhhS.jpg)
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Absolutely, yes.
Ref your front mech, I always use a chain catcher just in case.
It might be an idea to get a chain catcher - any you'd recommend? Unfortunately the Campagnolo one is black (and quite expensive for what it is), like so many components these days, but if needs must...
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It might be an idea to get a chain catcher - any you'd recommend? Unfortunately the Campagnolo one is black (and quite expensive for what it is), like so many components these days, but if needs must...
Dog Fang https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/deda-elementi-dog-fang-chain-catcher-/rp-prod84217
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[quote author=Oxford_Guy link=topic=112818.msg2426439#msg2426439 date=1568121026
It might be an idea to get a chain catcher - any you'd recommend? Unfortunately the Campagnolo one is black (and quite expensive for what it is), like so many components these days, but if needs must...
[/quote]
Jump Stop
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Thanks for the suggestions for a chain catcher Paul H and JonB, though I was thinking more of something that would attach to the braze-on mount, as was trying to avoid having bands attached around the seat tube on this bike.
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I don’t know if such a thing exists, though you can get some that attach to the BB if you want to avoid a band. The reason I like the Jump Stop is you can set the mech to over shift and the chain can’t go anywhere other than onto the ring, helps when you’ve left it a bit late and do a panic shift.
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I don’t know if such a thing exists, though you can get some that attach to the BB if you want to avoid a band. The reason I like the Jump Stop is you can set the mech to over shift and the chain can’t go anywhere other than onto the ring, helps when you’ve left it a bit late and do a panic shift.
I was thinking more this sort of thing:
https://www.tredz.co.uk/.K-Edge-Road-braze-on-double-chain-catcher_55173.htm?sku=153478
https://www.wiggle.co.uk/token-tk375-chain-drop-catcher-for-front-road-mechs/
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FWIW, I use the deda dog fang. Possibly less noticeable, lighter, cheaper than K-edge or similar? You could probably mount the fang on some 'helicopter' type tape to protect the paint, if this is an issue. Also, chain stay protection?
edit. my cs is a triple and frame a darker colour - so I guess fang is further down and 'blends' in.
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FWIW, I use the deda dog fang. Possibly less noticeable, lighter, cheaper than K-edge or similar? You could probably mount the fang on some 'helicopter' type tape to protect the paint, if this is an issue. Also, chain stay protection?
Bit wary of the helicopter tape pulling the lacquer off the frame when changing it, or does that not happen?
Have been considering some sort of sacrificial chain stay protection, perhaps on of those clear, slightly padded protectors?
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Googling around 'helitape and paint damage', does seem that there are a few instances of problems - perhaps it depends on tape brand / how well the paint has been applied/finished. I still have a retro plastic Shimano Sharkfin on the chainstay on my steel bike, not tried anything else. Interestingly on another bike without chainstay protection, the white paint area has discoloured with oil stain.
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BTW, as reported (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=17.msg2426631#msg2426631) in the Members' Bikes Gallery section, where I also posted some more photos (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=17.msg2426250#msg2426250) of the bike, I did actually take it out for a short 25 mile shakedown ride with a friend on Saturday (after fitting the second bottle cage).
The ride quality is fantastic, not harsh, not noodly - think this is partly the frame, partly the Veloflex Master 25 tyres (and latex tubes) - despite being skinny, the latter give a beautifully smooth ride.
Acceleration is ludicrously quicker than on my Hewitt Cheviot and it seems to fly up hills. Shifting at the rear was impeccable.
On the downside, think some adjustments are needed:
1) Whilst I found the Gilles Berthoud Galibier saddle to be fine and it didn't give me any comfort problems, I did keep on finding myself moving forward on it - probably need to move the rails forward on the seat clamp a bit, it is quite far back currently, will try in 5mm steps.
2) When I rest my hands on the hoods (as I would certainly do in a group ride, to have quick access to gears and brakes), my arms are almost (but not quite) locked, think the reach is a tad too far, and I did have some neck stiffness after the ride (though I am a bit prone to that). Moving the saddle forward may help a bit, but I suspect I should have gone for an 80mm Nitto Pearl stem instead of a 90mm one - on the bike the latter is actually closer to 100mm - this is a bit of a known issue with this stem, but I thought the short reach Nitto M106 NAS bars would compensate enough. In the drops and elsewhere on the bars it's okay. Bit annoying to have to change a quill stem, though, especially as Mercian did a very good job with the bar tape and mounting the Ergos (and getting the relatively tight curve of the shallow drop bars to fit into the stem)
3) I dropped the chain once, although that was when trying to change down to the small ring at fairly low cadence (was a bit of a last minute thing, when I had to stop because had a fly in my eye). No damage to paint, though. Also a few times it halfheartedly tried to pick up the chain when changing up to the big ring, but failed. Think the front derailleur needs more adjustment - the limit screws, perhaps (although the cage positions at either end look okay)? When it worked, which was most of the time, though, the front shifting was surprisingly quick, considering the 16T jump, and the Ergos make it easy to shift up a cog or two at the back quickly afterwards.
Other than that it was excellent.
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IMHO you are about to go completely the wrong way with your adjustments. If your arms are 'locked' this suggests you have weight on your hands.
If you have weight on your hands and arms when pedalling normally (it is different when you are not pedalling), this is a very clear sign that you already have the saddle too far forwards, and moving it further forwards will just make everything worse, comfort wise.
When the riding position is correct (for comfort), you should be able to pedal normally with just your fingertips on the handlebars, and just the merest pressure passing through them.
If you have significant load passing through your arms than this can lead to all kinds of tension problems in the neck and shoulders, leading in turn to a stiff(er) neck, headaches, you name it.
I'd suggest that you try adjusting the saddle tilt a little and that you try moving the saddle backwards until you don't feel load passing through your arms any more. Then buy a stem to put the hoods in the right (comfortable) place. Very possibly the best handlebar position will be higher and shorter than (current) aesthetics suggest.
cheers
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IMHO you are about to go completely the wrong way with your adjustments. If your arms are 'locked' this suggests you have weight on your hands.
If you have weight on your hands and arms when pedalling normally (it is different when you are not pedalling), this is a very clear sign that you already have the saddle too far forwards, and moving it further forwards will just make everything worse, comfort wise.
When the riding position is correct (for comfort), you should be able to pedal normally with just your fingertips on the handlebars, and just the merest pressure passing through them.
If you have significant load passing through your arms than this can lead to all kinds of tension problems in the neck and shoulders, leading in turn to a stiff(er) neck, headaches, you name it.
I'd suggest that you try adjusting the saddle tilt a little and that you try moving the saddle backwards until you don't feel load passing through your arms any more. Then buy a stem to put the hoods in the right (comfortable) place. Very possibly the best handlebar position will be higher and shorter than (current) aesthetics suggest.
Thanks for the feedback, though by "locked" all I really meant was that I have to reach so far when on the hoods that my arms are almost fully straight, with very little bend in the elbow, simply because the reach is quite far - I didn't necessarily mean to imply that they were "locked" to support my weight (which is also why I said "(not quite) locked"). I will check again, though, to see if I do have weight on my hands when pedaling normally.
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however much weight you have on your hands at the moment, it will be increased if you move the saddle forwards; it is really not at all the right thing to do if the only problem is that your reach is too long, and has a very different effect from getting a shorter stem. It is, however, very easy to do, unlike changing a quill stem.
cheers
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however much weight you have on your hands at the moment, it will be increased if you move the saddle forwards; it is really not at all the right thing to do if the only problem is that your reach is too long, and has a very different effect from getting a shorter stem. It is, however, very easy to do, unlike changing a quill stem.
Fair point... BTW it's also possible I have the saddle a fraction too high, but if so, we're probably only talking 5mm
When I was measured up by Mercian on their jig, it did feel pretty "right" when pedaling (though obviously is not quite the same as pushing effort on the road) and my arms were a bit less stretched out, even on the hoods - that was with a 90mm stem measurement and on a Brooks saddle (so similar usable rail length to my GB saddle) with a seatpost with about the same amount of setback as mine. I'd say the bars I'm using have slightly less reach to the hoods than the Mercian jig ones, and the shifters about the same as the brakes levers they had fitted (which looked like a near clone of the same Campagnolo Ergo shape). Could just 10mm of stem length (my 90mm one seems to measure closer to 100mm on the bike) and a little more height possibly make all the difference?
As for height, I don't think the Nitto Pearl stem will go much, if any, higher to where it is now, though it would be possible to get a Nitto Technomic DX in a shorter length (can go as short as 60mm) and longer height (190mm vs 150mm for the Pearl): https://www.hubjub.co.uk/nitto-ntc-dx-technomic-deluxe-stem-153-p.asp
If I need to change the stem to get the correct fit, then so be it, it's better than getting neck or back pain, though would want to make sure that this time it's the correct length/height. A visit to a local bike fit place may be in order, think there's a few my local cycling club use. As long as I can get everything sorted by spring next year, I'll be happy.
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I think you can get the technomic stem win the pearl spec, but I don't think there's much difference except slight aesthetic improvements.
The bike fit person I've used is Mark Harvey at Take 3 Tri (he uses a Retul system). There are at least a couple of other fitters that various Condors recommend, so there's some choice in the matter around here...
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if you did your setup with a brooks saddle, then I'd expect the saddle to
a) sag a little , altering the height of your backside and
b) cause the nose to upslope a little (again because of the slight sagging) and
c) cause your backside to be a little bit further forwards than with many other saddles.
So you might be right, you might need to put a different saddle forwards to replicate your 'fitted' position. Whether that position is going to be exactly right in the long term with a different saddle remains to be seen, I guess.
cheers
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I think you can get the technomic stem win the pearl spec, but I don't think there's much difference except slight aesthetic improvements.
Yes, that's the "DX" version of the Technomic - the same as the one I linked to, which is 4cm taller than the Pearl (which should be plenty, possibly too much)
The bike fit person I've used is Mark Harvey at Take 3 Tri (he uses a Retul system). There are at least a couple of other fitters that various Condors recommend, so there's some choice in the matter around here...
Yes, I've had Take 3 recommended to me by one of the Condors, I think I may give him a try, unless I get a better suggestion from them. Hope he won't be too thrown when I turn up with a bike with a quill stem (I'll warn him) - I presume that wouldn't affect the actual fitting too much?
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if you did your setup with a brooks saddle, then I'd expect the saddle to
a) sag a little , altering the height of your backside and
b) cause the nose to upslope a little (again because of the slight sagging) and
c) cause your backside to be a little bit further forwards than with many other saddles.
So you might be right, you might need to put a different saddle forwards to replicate your 'fitted' position. Whether that position is going to be exactly right in the long term with a different saddle remains to be seen, I guess.
I like the saddle currently fitted (which isn't that different from a Brooks- also leather etc.), so think I'd rather change the stem, if that would get the fit right.
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IIRC Gilles Berthoud saddles are less likely to be a hammock shape' when new. Some folk sit on them a bit more like they would sit on a synthetic saddle; I guess you might need to double-check this if you can.
cheers
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Yes, I've had Take 3 recommended to me by one of the Condors, I think I may give him a try, unless I get a better suggestion from them. Hope he won't be too thrown when I turn up with a bike with a quill stem (I'll warn him) - I presume that wouldn't affect the actual fitting too much?
It won't throw him. It will mean you can't switch stems there and then, but you can still go through the process and work out what suits. I guess if you really wanted to be certain before buying another stem you could replicate your bike onto the Retul jig he has and then experiment with where you want to put your hands.
He has a number of different saddles available to try, but I don't think he has any Brooks (I could loan you a B17 if you wanted to experiment though). Fundamentally, changing the stem because your saddle is in the wrong place is not the right approach. Much better to get the saddle right and then work around that.
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IIRC Gilles Berthoud saddles are less likely to be a hammock shape' when new. Some folk sit on them a bit more like they would sit on a synthetic saddle; I guess you might need to double-check this if you can.
Yes, I guess that's true, from new they have a bit less "give"
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Yes, I've had Take 3 recommended to me by one of the Condors, I think I may give him a try, unless I get a better suggestion from them. Hope he won't be too thrown when I turn up with a bike with a quill stem (I'll warn him) - I presume that wouldn't affect the actual fitting too much?
It won't throw him. It will mean you can't switch stems there and then, but you can still go through the process and work out what suits. I guess if you really wanted to be certain before buying another stem you could replicate your bike onto the Retul jig he has and then experiment with where you want to put your hands.
He has a number of different saddles available to try, but I don't think he has any Brooks (I could loan you a B17 if you wanted to experiment though). Fundamentally, changing the stem because your saddle is in the wrong place is not the right approach. Much better to get the saddle right and then work around that.
Sure, though I've got on well with a GB Aravis on another bike in the past and didn't get any discomfort in the seat area from the GB Galibier I put on the Mercian, so would be loathe to change unless I really had to, especially as a stock B17 is really too wide for my sit bones, which are only about 110mm apart.
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How’s the fit on the Hewitt? That ought to be your starting point. Having had a fit from both Mercian and Hewitt I’d say the Mercian was for the rider I’d like to be - 20 years younger, lighter, more flexible, fitter - and the Hewitt fit for the rider I am.
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How’s the fit on the Hewitt? That ought to be your starting point. Having had a fit from both Mercian and Hewitt I’d say the Mercian was for the rider I’d like to be - 20 years younger, lighter, more flexible, fitter - and the Hewitt fit for the rider I am.
The fit on the Hewitt is okay, but not perfect, I've meant to get a proper bike fit on it, but need to take it to The Seatpost Man (http://theseatpostman.com/) or similar to get the stuck seatpost removed first... I've come to realise the saddle is a bit too low (can't change that currently), and the stem and/or bar reach is too long, though I didn't really realise the latter until I started riding on the hoods more (instead of on the corners where the bars start to curve forwards) in group rides with my local cycling club (Cowley Road Condors) and then got a bad neck...
20 years ago I was perhaps more flexible, but I'm at least 7kg lighter now (65Kg) and do far more exercise (cycling, running, walking, pilates), so probably fitter too, LOL!
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I would be very wary of having two different fits on your two bikes. I have a number of bikes, but the key parameters ( seat height, seat setback from bracket, saddle to bars, drop from saddle height to bars and position of brake hoods on levers) are all millimetre exact. If for any weird reason one is out I know about it within a few minutes of riding. I always use the same saddle make and type on all bikes.
As a short-term experiment with slightly rotating your bars so that a line along the drop part would bisect the rear hub. This would bring your brake hoods up and towards you. If this works, you could then adjust your levers to your ideal position on the bars at the angle you prefer.
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I would be very wary of having two different fits on your two bikes. I have a number of bikes, but the key parameters ( seat height, seat setback from bracket, saddle to bars, drop from saddle height to bars and position of brake hoods on levers) are all millimetre exact. If for any weird reason one is out I know about it within a few minutes of riding. I always use the same saddle make and type on all bikes.
Even though the Hewitt Cheviot is a touring bike and the Mercian Strada Speciale a road bike? Wouldn't it be a bit weird if they had exactly the same fit?
On neither of these two bikes was the original fit using the components that are actually on the bikes - the fits on the jigs were with different pedals and shoes (I didn't have any SPD-SL pedals and appropriate shoes at the time I was measured for the Mercian), different seatpost and saddle, different stem (the stems were part of the jigs, I think) and different bars and brakes/shifters, so I guess it's not entirely surprising the fit isn't quite right on either...
I just hope the frame sizes are close enough that I will eventually be able to get a correct fit on both by adjusting the position of things and/or changing some of the components. Otherwise I may have made an expensive mistake :-(
I was quite surprised how different the fit on the Mercian in real life feels compared to what it felt like on the jig (with arms much more bent when in the hoods etc.), though. Don't think it's just that the stem turned out to be 10mm longer than I was measured for (partly due to the weird way Nitto measure their stems).
Paul - how do you manage to get such an exact fit on different bikes, with different components (other than saddle)?
As a short-term experiment with slightly rotating your bars so that a line along the drop part would bisect the rear hub. This would bring your brake hoods up and towards you. If this works, you could then adjust your levers to your ideal position on the bars at the angle you prefer.
Maybe, but I think I need to get a shorter (and possibly slightly taller) stem first, but I don't want to do that until I have a proper bike fit.
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It doesn't seem to make sense to have exactly the same riding position on different bikes unless one is a replica of the other. As OG's Hewitt and Mercian are intended to be ridden in different manners, that's not the case. Plus, your body isn't identical at all times: muscles and joints warm up, back flexes, different clothes are worn (affecting effective seat to pedal distance, movement of limbs, etc).
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It doesn't seem to make sense to have exactly the same riding position on different bikes unless one is a replica of the other. As OG's Hewitt and Mercian are intended to be ridden in different manners, that's not the case. Plus, your body isn't identical at all times: muscles and joints warm up, back flexes, different clothes are worn (affecting effective seat to pedal distance, movement of limbs, etc).
Also, even if comparing two road bikes - the setup between a "traditional" style bike and a modern one can be quite different, see: http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.com/2013/10/changing-positions.html
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The convention is you take the triangle of the three contact points and rotate around the BB, forward for a more sporty position and back for a touring one.
It’s never worked for me, whatever bike I’ve had the rider is still a tourist.
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I would be very wary of having two different fits on your two bikes. I have a number of bikes, but the key parameters ( seat height, seat setback from bracket, saddle to bars, drop from saddle height to bars and position of brake hoods on levers) are all millimetre exact.
I've got nine bikes and, whilst I aim for the same basic saddle height etc, I doubt they are anywhere near this close. As others have said, they are for different purposes, so different bar heights etc. And Bromptons don't really have bar-height adjustment :)
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Okay, went for a bike fit this morning at Fulcycle (http://fulcycle.com/bike-fit/) in Wheatley with Dr. Bryan Roberts.
Saddle has gone up about 2cm(!) and tilted forward a little, stem has been swapped for a 1cm shorter one (Nitto Pearl 80mm, instead of 90mm), and raised slightly (really at max now...), shifters moved up a little, bar tilt moved up a little. It's early days, but feeling less pressure on lower back and neck/shoulders more relaxed. Cleats also adjusted slightly.
Post-bike fit:
[click to expand]
(https://i.imgur.com/5MtBMJc.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/5MtBMJc.jpg)
Is this stem beyond the max point (there isn't a line as such) or does it look okay?:
(https://i.imgur.com/JxQIMCm.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/JxQIMCm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/wsuwIzY.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/wsuwIzY.jpg)
You can see the marks on the seat post, which show how much the saddle has gone up:
(https://i.imgur.com/jiHnHqP.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/jiHnHqP.jpg)
Tilt to saddle - seems slightly odd, not 100% sure about this, but will give it a go:
(https://i.imgur.com/OPfCvgI.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/OPfCvgI.jpg)
http://fulcycle.com/bike-fit/
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20mm! Your frame has just got too small by 2 frame sizes!
Basically your saddle has gone up a lot and your bars are nearer.
Either you are now riding with almost straight legs with the pedals at the bottom of the stroke or you were on the low side (saddle height) with your Mercian frame fit. Or maybe both!
Bike fit seems to be mostly placebo and who/what is a "SICI certified bike fit"? Oh just something made up by some people/person.
https://www.serottacyclinginstitute.com/
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20mm! Your frame has just got too small by 2 frame sizes!
Basically your saddle has gone up a lot and your bars are nearer.
Either you are now riding with almost straight legs with the pedals at the bottom of the stroke or you were on the low side with your Mercian frame fit. Or maybe both!
Bike fit seems to be mostly placebo and who/what is a "SICI certified bike fit"? Oh just something made up by some people/person.
https://www.serottacyclinginstitute.com/
Legs are not locked out, is actually only 1cm higher than the measurement for my original cycle fit at Mercian. The shorter stem was because Nitto measure their stems in an odd way - their 80mm stem is nearer to 90mm on the bike
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If the frame had been any larger, stand over height would have become more of an issue
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Did the fitter give a reason for that seat angle? A seat angle like that would increase pressure on your hands and is normally use to compansate a saddle being too high. I honestly cannot think of a reason a trained fitter would so that.
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Did the fitter give a reason for that seat angle? A seat angle like that would increase pressure on your hands and is normally use to compansate a saddle being too high. I honestly cannot think of a reason a trained fitter would so that.
There was some reason, but I can't remember - I'll drop him an email to ask. I may relax the tillt a bit.
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That saddle angle/tilt is definitely not "normal", I think only seen on bikes where the rider is trying to get a very low back.
Seat angle is usually the seat tube angle.
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That saddle angle/tilt is definitely not "normal", I think only seen on bikes where the rider is trying to get a very low back.
Seat angle is usually the seat tube angle.
Seat tube angle is 74 degrees BTW
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He did also say after riding for a bit I can go back for further adjustments/assessment as required for no extra charge, so if the saddle tilt isn't helping, can try something else.
Btw they did change the quill stem for no extra charge, and that was quite an involved job.
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I don’t think you’ve given Mercian a fair chance, they’ve built a bike based on the fitting you had with them, IMO you ought to ride it for a few thousand miles before changing anything, then if it’s still not working go back to them.
I know it’s all in the eye of the beholder, but if you wanted something of the proportions in the latest photo they’d have built something different.
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I don’t think you’ve given Mercian a fair chance, they’ve built a bike based on the fitting you had with them, IMO you ought to ride it for a few thousand miles before changing anything, then if it’s still not working go back to them.
I know it’s all in the eye of the beholder, but if you wanted something of the proportions in the latest photo they’d have built something different.
Yes, but all their measurements were done on a jig, not my bike with real components on it (some of which seem to have differed from their nominal spec, like the stem). I didn't even have any SPD-SL shoes when I went for the original bike fit either. The seatpost, saddle, bars, levers, pedals were all different.
The bike fit guy did say he thought the sizing of frame itself was spot on, though
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The bike fit guy did say he thought the sizing of frame itself was spot on, though
I can’t see how it can be if it needs to be set up like that. Either the fit isn’t as intended or the frame is wrong, it wouldn’t have left Mercian like that. In the end if you’re happy with it that’s all that matters, but something has gone wrong and as it’s a different sort of bike I still think you haven’t given up those differences a fair trial.
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I don’t think you’ve given Mercian a fair chance, they’ve built a bike based on the fitting you had with them, IMO you ought to ride it for a few thousand miles before changing anything, then if it’s still not working go back to them.
The previous fit gave me increased lower backache after 10 miles and neck ache after 25. Something had to change, well before '"a few thousand miles"
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I’m trying to be helpful, so please bear with me.
My immediate reaction to your post-fit pictures is that the bars seem extraordinary high - hence the amount of stem showing.
I’d typically expect a position that roughly placed 30% of weight on arms, rest on saddle. Even as a very chunky near 70 year old I run an 8cm drop from saddle height to height to the centre of the bars. The modern trend is for a huge amount more drop.
Is the drop on the Mercian post-fit similar to the Hewitt? If it is then I’d respectfully suggest that the Hewitt has an e tremendous “ touring” position, but that is the one you are used to.
From your pictures with the bike you don’t seem to have an extreme body physiology.
That leads me to suggest that you might need to get used to a different position to maximise performance. I think you have said you do yoga? Maybe some more core work?
You have said that you want the Mercian for “ fast club rides”. I’d suggest that being so upright might not be ideal for 20mph+.
In all, I think the Mercian is an ideal frame for you, but that your current position is non-optimal.
I hesitate to try to validate my thoughts, but on the Internet anyone can give random advice. In the bike fit world there are many mainstream and more extreme views. All I can say is that riders I have looked after, in teams I have worked for, have won many professional stage races - and presented me with their winners’ jerseys to recognise my input.
I’m writing all this because I want you to get comfortable and efficient on your bike/s and enjoy your new purchase.
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Thanks Giropaul, I appreciate that you're trying to help. I'm quite aware that I need to do some work on strengthening my core, part of the reason I'm now doing Pilates classes, I'm also about to see a new physio to try to address the underlying causes number of on-going back and neck issues, which previous physios have failed to really do. If the Pilates and exercises from the physio turn out to make a difference, then hopefully I'll be able to lower the bars a bit without discomfort, and adjust the overall fit.
I'm not very happy that I'm currently having to compromise the optimal setup of the bike in order to be able to ride without discomfort, but think I need to get my body into better shape before I can change this.
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I’m trying to be helpful, so please bear with me.
My immediate reaction to your post-fit pictures is that the bars seem extraordinary high - hence the amount of stem showing.
I’d typically expect a position that roughly placed 30% of weight on arms, rest on saddle. Even as a very chunky near 70 year old I run an 8cm drop from saddle height to height to the centre of the bars. The modern trend is for a huge amount more drop.
The drop from saddle to bars is similar to my very comfortable position. I have a drop of about an inch (2.5cm) from the saddle to the top of the stem. I am 67 years old and this is not greatly different to my time trialling position 50 years ago except that in those days we rode very deep drops (GB Ventoux and Tourmalet).
2 other comments -I ride Berthoud Aspin saddles, lower down the pecking order from yours, and I set them up pan flat - level to the top tube. Yours looks to be angled downwards. Secondly, for my taste the frame is a bit small (assuming saddle to pedal distance is correct for the rider). We used to reckon a fist should fit between the top tube and the saddle rails. But that is modern fashion to some extent, for example standover was never an issue until MTB riders found it a problem especially with their high bottom brackets..
My riding style is that I spend 99% of my time on the hoods and tops of the bars with arms bent which forms a sort of suspension. Modern fashion seems to be to ride on the drops (shallow for modern fashion) with locked elbows.
I've never done a bike fit in my 50 plus years of riding. Riding position was developed by watching and talking to club mates. I am not sure a bike fit would be a good thing for me because I am too cynical about the fit following fashion. Most of my frames are fully custom built, often using measurements from an existing comfortable set up.
Good luck, I am sure that you will adapt yourself and your set up over time and achieve comfortable ride.
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FWIW I could write something very similar to the above, the difference being that my frame size/riding position reached a state of equilibrium a few years later than tatanab, so my idea of the right racing frame size is probably a bit smaller than his is. Still nothing like as small as the Mercian in this thread though.
Frame designs are subject to the whims of fashion, and have been getting smaller for decades, even with a horizontal top tube. By the time Hinault was battling Lemond in the TdF I was busy thinking their frames were a bit on the small side, and that the stem would be at or above the maximum, and/or might flex unduly.
This created some conflict especially if you wanted your handlebar tops only a little dropped vs the saddle. I even had one frame built with an extended steerer, such that the headset had a 3/4" spacer in it. [The stem I used had a conical wedge and it still finished well below the steerer threads BTW].
I'd have bought a slightly larger frame and I'd have set it up with a flatter saddle and handlebars at least as high. But that is just me.
cheers
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I am not sure a bike fit would be a good thing for me because I am too cynical about the fit following fashion.
It's not that long since Cycling Weekly did a sort of comparative test of different bike fitters. The killer for me was that they did not all provide the same answer - although I'm sure that using any of them would be better than doing it yourself without advice.
However, traditionally that advice has come through the club system, and I'm not sure that a bike fit is worth the cost over that approach. I did, as a youngster, get a bit of free advice from the well-known coach Harold Nelson, when I was having back trouble as a new rider.
I tend to imagine that advice from experienced riders will tend to get you into the same range as advice from bike fitters. Maybe that should be done as a test - send someone to some clubs and other experienced types, as well as to some professional fitters, and compare those results properly.
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I am not sure a bike fit would be a good thing for me because I am too cynical about the fit following fashion.
It's not that long since Cycling Weekly did a sort of comparative test of different bike fitters. The killer for me was that they did not all provide the same answer - although I'm sure that using any of them would be better than doing it yourself without advice.
However, traditionally that advice has come through the club system, and I'm not sure that a bike fit is worth the cost over that approach. I did, as a youngster, get a bit of free advice from the well-known coach Harold Nelson, when I was having back trouble as a new rider.
I tend to imagine that advice from experienced riders will tend to get you into the same range as advice from bike fitters. Maybe that should be done as a test - send someone to some clubs and other experienced types, as well as to some professional fitters, and compare those results properly.
“H” was a legend. People just knew about him - no adverts, websites, blogs etc - you just knew about H!
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Fortunately, I knew someone who knew about him. I was a teenager almost entirely lacking in any kind of talent, so he'd have been wasting his time coaching me. However, he was very willing to stick me on some rollers, have a look, and give me some advice.
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I'd have bought a slightly larger frame and I'd have set it up with a flatter saddle and handlebars at least as high. But that is just me.
With hindsight, if I'd known how the frame was actually going to turn out in practice and what stem length and seat post length was going to be needed for me to fit on it, I would have insisted on at least a 54cm (c-t) frame, possibly with a 1cm extension to the head tube (even though that doesn't look that great). As it was, I trusted in Mercian to get the measurements correct for me - I'm not a frame builder and didn't know how it was going to turn out
In fact originally I was actually spec-ed for just a 52cm frame, with a 1cm head tube extension, but I asked them to increase it to 53cm, but without the extension - so originally the frame was going to be even smaller!
So I have a frame that's too small. The question is what now to do about it...
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Just for interest, I dug into the Forum depths and found a picture of your Hewitt. That looks a similar size to your Mercian, and you do have a lot more stackers than most people would have under your stem. By modern standards/taste you still have not a lot of seat pin out on your Mercian.
At the moment, for reasons you have explained, you are riding very high at the front. It may also be that this is what you are used to from your Hewitt. I’m not saying that it isn’t right for you, but it is unusual. If Mercian built a frame for your current Hewitt dimensions it would need to be sloping, or have a big extended head tube a la Urs Freuler. Personally, if it was me, I’d get a decent bike- focussed Physio and look at your flexibility etc. I’d recommend Martin Earley but he’s in the very rural parts of Staffordshire, but ask around the racing lads in Oxford. Isn’t Zappi based there - he’d probably know someone?
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Personally, if it was me, I’d get a decent bike- focussed Physio and look at your flexibility etc. I’d recommend Martin Earley but he’s in the very rural parts of Staffordshire, but ask around the racing lads in Oxford. Isn’t Zappi based there - he’d probably know someone?
Both the bike fit guy and many from my local cycling club seem to recommend the Bosworth Clinic physios, though it's a bit outside of Oxford itself. https://www.thebosworthclinic.co.uk/
I may give them a go
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Something that has I the past been different between UK and Belgian/French riders - the ratio of spend between the bike and the engine!
Even now, in a Belgian shop it’s typical to find much more nutrition, recovery etc products than in the UK, and even local teams have a doctor and a Physio, probably a nutritionist as well.
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Much as I get the aesthetics of what a classic bike should look like (seat pin, height of bars from top tube etc), whether it works for you is dependent on your body shape.
If you have short legs, (or are short), for a comfortable stand over, the showing of seat pin will be proportionally higher (to seat tube length) - given a fixed bottom bracket drop. If you have relatively short arms, you are likely to have higher bars / shorter reach for a given upper body position (e.g. 45 degree back).
Your ability to hold a more aero position for extended periods of time will depend on core strength and tolerance to pain, but making the bike 'look right' in isolation is a bit out of your control.
I'm not going to comment on the previous picture of the OP (! :)), but my Cross Check looks much like the set up on this Mercian with high seat and bars, but I wouldn't like less standover. Latest build has a slightly sloping top tube and long head tube to avoid loads of spacers.
That said, I don't think rigid adherence to the (arbitrary?) KOPS standard helps, as (for me) it put me higher and more forwards than my previous more 'touring' position - so seat and bars go up. Am I faster, more comfortable or have fewer aches? No. Worse? No.
The OP's bike looks fantastic :thumbsup:
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Hinault and Lemond in 1986
(http://coresites-cdn.factorymedia.com/rcuk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Greg-LeMond-Bernard-Hinault-Alpe-dHuez-1986-Tour-de-France-pic-Sirotti.jpg)
Hinault's handlebars probably couldn't be set any higher, not with the Cinelli stem he was using.
A decade or so earlier than this and the frames would have been at least 1cm larger, probably with slightly deeper drops to the handlebars.
note that in any case the tops wouldn't have been more than about 1-1/2" lower than the saddle, and had been that way since the 1950s, in professional racing. If you are not a professional racer, having the handlebars higher than that is fine.
Modern ideas about handlebar height are pretty loopy IMHO, and possibly arise from the (over) use of the hoods as the default riding position.
cheers
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I definitely would benefit from some more dynamic core work, also think my hip flexors have got a bit shortened and on my left side (-only, bizarrely) my hamstrings are quite tight. Until recently have not really done much exercise other than cycling (and a little bit of yoga, and more recently Pilates). I wasn't even walking much. About 3 months ago I started to go on frequent long-ish brisk walks (e.g. 2.5 miles at lunchtimes) and also started the "coach to 5k" running programme (after not running for about 30 years), which I found really tough initially, partly to try to get some more balanced use of my muscles. I think this had helped a little with my back problems, it's also helped me to lose a bit of weight, so think I may persevere with that, though I enjoy cycling more.
IanH - I am indeed quite short (172cm / 5'8") with not particularly long legs or arms, so what you've said makes some sense.
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BTW does my stem look beyond the max insertion point? I find it a bit difficult to tell with my Nitto stem, as it doesn't have a horizontal line as such, just the words and some vertical lines - you can see this in the close-ups I took of the stem in this post: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=112818.msg2427612#msg2427612
If it's over, I would want to lower it a bit, for safety's sake.
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Yes, the 'max.ht' lines are exposed - needs taking down a tad IMO.
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Yes, the 'max.ht' lines are exposed - needs taking down a tad IMO.
So should all of those vertical lines be below the headset nut?
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So should all of those vertical lines be below the headset nut?
Yes, as Andy said it only needs to go down a bit, it might be okay where it is as it's so close but if you want to be sure those vertical lines should not be exposed.
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So should all of those vertical lines be below the headset nut?
Yes, as Andy said it only needs to go down a bit, it might be okay where it is as it's so close but if you want to be sure those vertical lines should not be exposed.
Thanks, so think it needs to go down about 0.75cm
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If you have short legs, (or are short), for a comfortable stand over, the showing of seat pin will be proportionally higher (to seat tube length) - given a fixed bottom bracket drop.
I'd have said that ideally the bottom bracket drop shouldn't be fixed. Short legs probably need shorter cranks and a lower bottom bracket, so more drop (or else a similar drop with smaller wheels). I'm not sure how much bb drop is varied by custom builders? However, as the frame is built, the drop is now fixed, so this doesn't really help!
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Did the bike fitter install it above minimum insertion line? With that and the saddle I'd be really questioning this fitter...
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Did the bike fitter install it above minimum insertion line? With that and the saddle I'd be really questioning this fitter...
Yes. I'm guessing he's probably not that familiar with quill stems, though, and the way Nitto indicate the max insertion point is not the most clear.
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Modern fashion seems to be to ride on the drops (shallow for modern fashion) with locked elbows.
Modern ideas about handlebar height are pretty loopy IMHO, and possibly arise from the (over) use of the hoods as the default riding position.
Kids today, always riding on the drops while always riding on the hoods.
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Modern fashion seems to be to ride on the drops (shallow for modern fashion) with locked elbows.
Modern ideas about handlebar height are pretty loopy IMHO, and possibly arise from the (over) use of the hoods as the default riding position.
Kids today, always riding on the drops while always riding on the hoods.
I see much riding on the hoods (like 95% of the time), not much on the drops
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Modern fashion seems to be to ride on the drops (shallow for modern fashion) with locked elbows.
Modern ideas about handlebar height are pretty loopy IMHO, and possibly arise from the (over) use of the hoods as the default riding position.
Kids today, always riding on the drops while always riding on the hoods.
I blame those Shrodinger bars they brought out recently. Apparently they are the cats whiskers.
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Modern fashion seems to be to ride on the drops (shallow for modern fashion) with locked elbows.
Modern ideas about handlebar height are pretty loopy IMHO, and possibly arise from the (over) use of the hoods as the default riding position.
Kids today, always riding on the drops while always riding on the hoods.
I took tatanab's comment as being in the context of 'when the drops are used' and not implying that the drops are the most favoured position.
cheers
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The min. insertion line on a quill stem is to keep the stem expander (whether cone or wedge) away from the threaded (weaker) section of the steerer. Generally stem manufacturers are quite conservative about this.
A custom frame and fork should have not much thread below the bottom of the headset. If you know that is the case, then sneaking a few extra millimetres height isn’t a problem. If the steerer has an overly-long thread, then the expander can break the fork, even with a buried limit mark.
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IanH - I am indeed quite short (172cm / 5'8") with not particularly long legs or arms, so what you've said makes some sense.
I'm hesitant to offer yet another view, but I am 1 cm shorter than you, and with proportionally short legs, and long upper body.
this is all 5 foot 7 and a half of me and my stumpy legs next to a 17in MTB
(http://morag.notdot.org/photos/jpeg.jpg)
I have a couple of Mercians, both of them 54cm seat tube, I also have and have had other bikes ranging from 52cm up to 57cm and they all 'fit' although the relative proportion of exposed seatpost and stem, and stem lengths (and bar reach) are different, the contact points are broadly similar between all the bikes, with only minor variations commensurate with their intended use.
Some photos below, purely as a reference point from someone of a similar height and how setups on different sized frames look. I'll make no further comments as I think you need to do some fiddling and testing to work out what's going to work for you position wise.
Singular Osprey - 52cm - my main Audax bike, fits perfectly but aesthetically I think it looks a wee bit small, stem is at max height and looks lower than yours.
(http://morag.notdot.org/photos/singular_3.jpg)
Genesis Equilibrium - '52cm' as described by them, but 49cm ST and 53CM TT.
setup as winter trainer/club run bike
*The headtube on this thing is far too long, I cant go any lower with the stem without going for -17deg
(http://morag.notdot.org/photos/genesis_3.jpg)
Bontrager Road Lite - setup for fastish road rides, listed as 'small' but very similar to the Genesis, 49cm x 53cm but with slightly shorter headtube!
(http://morag.notdot.org/photos/IMG_5100.JPG)
Spa Cycles Ti Audax - 52cm - setup for audax, probably could have bought the 54cm but was worried about headtube being too long.
(http://morag.notdot.org/photos/spa/IMG_5275.JPG)
Condor Pendio - 53cm - setup for fastish road rides when I want to ride old steel in the wet
Again wiht this one I think it's on the verge of looking too small.
(http://morag.notdot.org/photos/condor_3.jpg)
Woodrup 54cm - setup for fastish road when I want to ride old steel in the dry
(http://morag.notdot.org/photos/woodrup_3.jpg)
Mercian Classic - 54cm - setup as SS Audax
(http://morag.notdot.org/photos/mercian_kom_3.jpg)
Mercian KOM - 54(.5) cm - setup as relaxed Audax, note the extended headtube...
(http://morag.notdot.org/photos/IMG_4713.JPG)
Carlton 57cm - setup as commuter
(http://morag.notdot.org/photos/carlton.jpg)
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The min. insertion line on a quill stem is to keep the stem expander (whether cone or wedge) away from the threaded (weaker) section of the steerer. Generally stem manufacturers are quite conservative about this.
A custom frame should have not much thread below the bottom of the headset. If you know that is the case, then sneaking a few extra millimetres height isn’t a problem. If the steerer has an overly-long thread, then the expander can break the fork, even with a buried limit mark.
Good point, the question is whether the fitter did indeed check where the thread was, in relation to the expander wedge, before setting the height of the stem
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Amedius - your photos would seem to suggest I probably should have been specified for a 54cm frame at least, seems odd that Mercian undersized my frame. Too late to change it now, though, so I'll just have to make the best of it.
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Amedius - your photos would seem to suggest I probably should have been specified for a 54cm frame at least, seems odd that Mercian undersized my frame. Too late to change it now, though, so I'll just have to make the best of it.
FWIW I think, looking at your pics, that I could get a lovely fit on your Mercian, but for me I'd be dropping the saddle a fair bit, moving it back a bit more, dropping the bars and moving to a 100mm stem and possibly a more traditional shape bar (not compact), but we're all differnet shapes and different preferences, the important thing is that you get a position you're comfortable with, I personally think you may need to do a little experimenting and also give yourself time to get used to a 'non touring' position on your 'fast' bike, it can take quite a while for the body to adjust and but what feels wrong now may feel much better later.
My reach preference has been getting longer in recent years, with a decent layback on the saddle I now prefer to be more stretched out and lower at the front, in all my pics above the saddle to bar drop doesn't look that big but I spend a good 30-40% of my time in the drops compared to most of my associates who only ever really ride on the hoods.
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BTW I asked the bike fitters to remind me of their rationale behind the forward saddle tilt, they said "The reason we did it is to relieve the back, as the more nose down, the less bend across the lower back." (I had made them aware I suffer from lower back pain) but he agreed they probably over did it.
I've arranged to see them again this Saturday (for no extra charge) for some further adjustments - less or no saddle tilt, stem below the min insertion point, and then other adjustments following, if necessary.
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The reason we did it is to relieve the back, as the more nose down, the less bend across the lower back
hmm, maybe just poor choice of words but you shouldn't really be bending across the lower back, you should be pivoting at the hips.
having the nose too far down can mean you're likely to slide forward and end up pushing back/stabilising with your lower back muscles and in-extremis, when coupled with high bars, arching your back the wrong way to wedge yourself betwixt bars and saddle.
But I haven't seen you on a bike or riding, so don't put too much faith in what I (or anyone who hasn't observed you) says ;-) We are all different and a fitter should know what they're doing with regards to your anatomy.
I really would give yourself some time on the bike though, when I set up a new bike I normally get pretty close on my first go as I know my preferences and measurments*, but I probably spend the next 200-300 miles tweaking, and normally fully fettled and settled with adjustments by 500 miles.
* even when you do there's no accounting for the way your adapt your style to some bikes that means you still need to make adjustments outside of what you expect.
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My Bob Jackson, horizontal top tube, in a smaller size than I really needed, took a while before I bedded in.
I worked on my flexibility at the hips to maintain a flat saddle
My physio asked me to film myself on a turbo.
From the side and the rear.
1.when I was relaxed and in a comfy gear.
And 2. after a tough session when I was knackered and pushing a tougher gear.
And we worked holistically on solutions to help with fatigue and bike fit.
I'm sure you'll get used to the bike and all will be well
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My Bob Jackson, horizontal top tube, in a smaller size than I really needed, took a while before I bedded in.
I worked on my flexibility at the hips to maintain a flat saddle
My physio asked me to film myself on a turbo.
From the side and the rear.
1.when I was relaxed and in a comfy gear.
And 2. after a tough session when I was knackered and pushing a tougher gear.
And we worked holistically on solutions to help with fatigue and bike fit.
I'm sure you'll get used to the bike and all will be well
Thanks, hope so! I'm going to give it another longish ride this weekend, as the weather looks to be good.
Over winter I'm hoping that practising excercises given to me by a physio will help with my back/neck/hip flexor flexibility and strength and allow me to ride with less discomfort (this doesn't just apply to my Mercian).
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Given the nature of this discussion, it would be interesting to see pictures of you riding the bike, including one maybe with the near foot close to the bottom of the pedal stroke (shows leg extension better). I wouldn't ever advocate bike fitting by photograph, but at least we could see how it's fitting.
Gratuitous picture of my own Mercian, to go with others above. I've posted it before in other threads, but we Mercian owners lose no opportunity ;D
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/8d8ol8hgozq6j0n/Mercian.jpg?raw=1)
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Given the nature of this discussion, it would be interesting to see pictures of you riding the bike, including one maybe with the near foot close to the bottom of the pedal stroke (shows leg extension better). I wouldn't ever advocate bike fitting by photograph, but at least we could see how it's fitting.
I'll see what I can do, but I don't own a turbo
Gratuitous picture of my own Mercian, to go with others above. I've posted it before in other threads, but we Mercian owners lose no opportunity ;D
(https://www.dropbox.com/s/8d8ol8hgozq6j0n/Mercian.jpg?raw=1)
Nice tourer, I like the full Super C kit too :-)
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Thanks :-) The bar bag is really old, bought in the late 70s. Everything else is more modern.
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Thanks :-) The bar bag is really old, bought in the late 70s. Everything else is more modern.
In the Super C range I have just the rack bag, but use that quite a lot for day outings on my Hewitt Cheviot and really like it.
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I'll see what I can do, but I don't own a turbo
In the age of Zwift you could probably get one for 20p.
I found the turbo a convenient 'contol' situation as I made adjustments and improved my flexibility.