Tubeless for Dummies

[vorsprung]

latest adventures

• got some schwalbe pro one 23mm tyres, fitted them on H Son Archetypes.  Measured width is nearly 26mm
• decided I could not build a "ghetto" compressor bottle with bits of stuff I had lying about so bought an "Airshot" which is basically the same thing but made out of metal.  Works great, looks durable
• when I removed the old Hutchinson intensive tubeless tyre the remains of the sealant ( from July ) was just brown water.  It didn't look like it could seal any holes

more fascinating facts about this stuff on the blog

[tippers_kiwi]

I had another attempt at Tubeless (see #347 for the full back story) deciding to finally mount the Schwalbe S-Ones that I had received back in April a couple of weeks back.

Mounting went fine, no trouble at all other than some rather rapid pumping to get started. Ones they were seated and pumped up the air held straight off, I left them in the bike just looking nice for a week and they only lost about 5 psi in that time.

I rode the Richard Ellis Memorial 100 on them including an ECE out to 200. Fast, smooth, grippy just generally awesome. The smoothness that the 30c gave really was quite amazing.

This weekend I headed out to go and control at Maglia Rosso for Wilkyboy. About 10 km into the 50 km ride up there I suddenly heard the hiss of air....it'll be ok, it will stop in a second....come on stop already.....nope, not stopping and now staring to feel the rim on the road.....grrrrrr

Another slash through the tyre that the sealant was not able to deal with like the IRC's and the Hutchinsons 

Time for me to permanently give upon the tubeless set up, it's costing me a fortune and when I spend the rest of the ride thinking I am hearing the tell tale hiss of air it's just not enjoyable.

I stand by my conclusion that the extra weight I carry (I'm 17 stone) is what causes the issue. I thought the 30c might go some way to solving that but it hasn't made a difference. Of the aprox. 20 rides I have been on with Tubeless 2 of them have not involved stopping to deal with some form of puncture/sealing issue and pumping. Compare that 2 2 pinch flats  in 3 years and it makes little sense for me to keep trying.

[Frank9755]

When you hear the rush of air, it's best to jump off and take action to stop it. Either put your finger over the hole or press the hole into the road. That will stop it quicker than relying on the sealant to act on its own. 

[Somnolent]

I stand by my conclusion that the extra weight I carry (I'm 17 stone) is what causes the issue.

Like you I've virtually given up after another unsealed deflation, but I'm not sure it's your weight per se that causes the issue.
IMO it's the pressure that us larger riders need.
Maybe if I can shed a few more kilos I can use something less than the threshold pressure at which these things seal themselves, and without the tyres feeling 'squirelly'

When you hear the rush of air, it's best to jump off and take action to stop it. Either put your finger over the hole or press the hole into the road. That will stop it quicker than relying on the sealant to act on its own. 

  Hasn't worked for me I'm afraid.

[Frank9755]

Tyres are hard.

I probably only tried tubeless because I got two punctures on a cold day on the Anfractuous a couple of years ago and hated fixing them, then I saw that TG was using them and gave them a try.  I then had a great year on tubeless with no problems.  I found myself becoming a bit of an evangelist for tubeless.

But, in the last few months I've also had a few puncture issues.  And I also recall whole years around 2009-11 where I rode over 10,000 miles without a puncture on tubed tyres. 

So far, putting my finger over a cut, or jamming it into the road has always worked for me, haivng had to do it about a dozen times.  I'm surprised it hasn't worked for you, Pete (and jumping off the bike means weight isn't a factor) But it's a good warning as I guess one day it might not work for me. 

The reason tyres are hard is that puctures are rare but catastrophic events about which none of us has enough data on to draw valid conclusions.  So we go with hunches based on inadequate data, believe that we will always have the same results in the future and find it hard to believe that others get different results!  Actually we shouldn't be surprised, because anyone with basic statistics knowledge would tell us that was exactly what would happen.

So: 
1. Tubeless tyres are different from those with tubes
2. They stop some punctures (pinches), and self-fix most, but not all, others
3. As a result, that allows me to use much nicer tyres than I would dare use with tubes, all year round.
4. Getting off and putting your finger on can usually, but not always, stop a puncture and allow you to ride on at lower pressure
5. They are more of a faff to fit than tubed ones.

I'm carrying on with them, mainly because of points 2 and 3 but I wouldn't say they are a no-brainer and a solution to everything.

[tippers_kiwi]

I hadn't thought of jumping of to block the hole, it makes some sense though. I'm always a bit surprised that the tyres seem to cut quite so easily, especially with the S-One supposedly having a layer that resists cutting.

I think for me the advantage was your point 3. All 3 tyres I tried (IRC Formula in 25c, Hutchinson Sector 28's  and the S-One in 30c) gave a bloody fantastic ride. All very smooth yet felt quick and I was running the 25 and 28s between 10 and 15 psi lower that the tubed equivalent.

Maybe I haven't given up permanently, I might see how I feel about things when the summer comes around again but I want something I can more or less rely on (in my mind) over winter and I know the Durano Plus gives me that.

[Christophe]

I've recently built a Pugsley and gone down the tubeless route using the split tube method. Very pleased with the results so am thinking about my road bike.

Basically question is does the split tube method work on road tyres? I would be using Archetypes and would invest in tubeless tyres as understand the bead is a lot stronger but just think split tube would offer a better seal than rim tape and separate valve??

[PaulF]

Wouldn't risk myself: remember you'll be running your road bike around 10x the pressure you would on your Pugsley

[stevie63]

With the archetype rims it is really important that you tape them well and with enough layers for the tyre you are using otherwise they won't stay up. With the IRC roadlites 2 layers was enough but with Hutchinson fusion 5 all weather I have had to use 3 layers. Or course as always ymmv.

[Christophe]

Pug is on 29+ so running pressure of around 18 psi.
Was thinking double wrap of gorilla tape, split tube and larger sized schwalbe ones or almotion 700x38 running about 50-60 psi on archetypes

[vorsprung]

I wouldn't use the split tube method for tyres at road bike pressures.  Although I do have a moulded rim strip on my Archetypes, which is a similar thing

Strikes me that road bike tubeless and MTB tubeless have a lot of differences

Stuff that works well at 18psi isn't going to be so great at 50psi and if you ever do what I do and use 70 to 90 psi, forget it

[sojournermike]

I wouldn't use a split tube on road wheels. Tape it with some appropriate tape and use valves.

Archetypes have a sloping internal shoulder, which isn't optimal as the tyre could 'slide' down it and lose pressure, although lots of people say they're fine. Tubeless ready rims have a centre well and 'shelves' by the bead hook for security.

Mike

[Christophe]

OK thanks if I go down the tubeless route will do it proerly. Not overly worried about archetype suitability as plenty of others seem to have had success.

Setting up the Pugsley was a cinch. The tyres held full pressure for a few days before I put stans in and so far have been great.

[maxap]

I changed to tubeless yesterday.
I've got Cero AR24 wheels, not tubeless ready, but they seem to work fine. Two rounds of Stans tape fitted with Scwalbe one pro 25s. I normally ride Continental 4000 at about 100psi rear, 90 at the front. Tried the new Scwalbe on 60psi both front and back. Seemed to work on my 20km test ride. Difficult to measure the difference in the ride, but definitely feels more comfy, - I think ;-)
I'll see how it goes.

[vorsprung]

The 23mm Schwalbe Pro Ones have done less than 500km

I topped up the sealant a couple of weeks ago. I normally run them at 80 or 90 psi

On the way back from the pub on Wednesday, it did that hissy noise for a puncture.  It lost a lot of pressure before it stopped hissing.  I guess I was on 20 psi. I tried topping it up with a CO2 a couple of times but it didn't work, the hole just opened up again.   There was just about enough air in the tyre to ride it nervously the 10 miles home.

Today in the garage I looked at the hole.  It is about 2mm and it had already been patched from the inside with a normal inner tube patch.  I tried applying new patch. 
This didn't work.   I am guessing that the patch doesn't work as the hole is on an internal ridge or join inside the tyre - the surface isn't smooth.  Tried using the anchoive external patch kit.  This didn't work either.  After spraying a lot of sealant around the garage I gave up on the tyre.  I had a spare tubeless tyre, an old hutchinson intensive.  However that wouldn't "pop" on even with the Airshot and sprayed with soap.  Either old sealant on the tyre means it won't slide or the rim strip is kinked and stopping it working

At this stage pretty much run out of spare Stan's Sealant and patience.   Stopped for a cup of tea

Went back, removed rim strip and fitted the Hutchinson with am inner tube.

The Schwalbe tyre wasn't worn it's done really low mileage.  The hole isn't major but it won't seal automatically.  Any ideas on fixing it?

[Hot Flatus]

Plug type tubeless repair kit.

Surprised at your choice of tyre for these conditions. The Pro One is a light racing tyre. I have them on autumn/spring wheels, but for now im using Hutchinson Sector 32.

[vorsprung]

Plug type tubeless repair kit.

Surprised at your choice of tyre for these conditions. The Pro One is a light racing tyre. I have them on autumn/spring wheels, but for now im using Hutchinson Sector 32.

you're right I was  bit optimistic using them in winter/autumn

[Hot Flatus]

Well...you can use them....but as you've discovered it turns into an expensive choice that becomes more of a problem than tubed tyres, which is self-defeating.

Wiggle list Sector 32 tyres for less than £30. Apart from not being as grippy as Id like at high pressures, so far they have been perfect. Ive been running them at 50psi. these past weeks, and actually they feel pretty good.

[bikey-mikey]

I'm still faithfully using sector 32..

I buy a load at a time from A-tyres, and even though they are in France, they arrive within days, and so far have been the cheapest...

Sector 32 don't have the out and out grip you might get with such as Conti GP 4000 S with black chili etc, but I know they don't, so ride sensibly.... (and I've become a wuss downhill in the wet, anyway...)

They tend to do between 5,000 & 10,000 kms but occasionally they can suffer severe cuts, which have never actually ended a ride, but once the sealing becomes a bit pump, ride, occasional plug pop out, successful reseal, ride, pop out, sequence repeat, I take the hint and fit a new one...

I've not really tried patches or plugs, but then again, I'm generally too busy riding....

[maxap]

Bikey-mikey
I've been searching for A-tyres where you buy your sector 32s. Can't find them. Could you give me the address please.
Thanks

[Samuel D]

He may mean acycles.fr or the .co.uk equivalent.

[Hot Flatus]

Wiggle are cheaper....but no stock for a few weeks

[vorsprung]

unfortunately the bike in question hasn't got the tyre clearance for sector 32

I have to use 23mm tyres on the wide archetype rims which comes out at 25mm which *just* fits

The other bike has Schwalbe S-One which are 30mm.  The problem with riding that bike in the winter is that it's disk brake pads last about 10 minutes.  But let's not get into this now

[zigzag]

<...>  The problem with riding that bike in the winter is that it's disk brake pads last about 10 minutes.  But let's not get into this now

wet and skoggy conditions is the only reason i choose to ride disc braked bike, otherwise there's not much point in having disc brakes.. in my opinion.

[bikey-mikey]

He may mean acycles.fr or the .co.uk equivalent.

Whoops yes, acycles in France..

Sorry for inadvertent brain fade...