Tubeless for Dummies

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've also decided that the balance now lies in favour of tubeless for me. What about valves? What are the special valves called and are they all alike or are some better/worse in various ways than others?

[Hot Flatus]

Tubeless valves. Some (dt swiss) have a rectangular block, some have a conical block etc. I've not really noticed much difference between them. Just do a good job on the rim tape (I use yellow TESA tape off ebay) and don't overtighten them

[ElyDave]

also thinking of the recumbent which is a right PITA to do a roadside puncture repair on, can I convert any-old rim to tubeless by replacing the rim tape and using appropriate tyres?

[Cudzoziemiec]

Tubeless valves.

As simple as that? 

I've actually had tubeless tape in the rims for a few years but I'm not sure what condition it's in.

[Hot Flatus]

Indeed 

Don't spend loads on them. These will be fine:

https://www.wiggle.co.uk/lifeline-universal-tubeless-presta-valve

I replace mine every few years when I redo the rim tape. Also worth getting a bag of valve cores and replacing them every so often when they start to clog. They only cost a few pence snd you have to remove the valve when you top up sealant every 3 or 4 months anyway.

[rafletcher]

also thinking of the recumbent which is a right PITA to do a roadside puncture repair on, can I convert any-old rim to tubeless by replacing the rim tape and using appropriate tyres?

 I have run Archtype rims tubeless, technically the rims don’t have the right profile to retain the beads, but with Schwalbe tubeless tyres and Stans rim tape they worked just fine. Being able to run them at a lower pressure (I run 5bar front, 6bar rear on mine) helps with comfort, and reduces the risk of a tyre blowing off.

[BFC]

Getting new tyres to form an initial seal and then "pop" over the ridges on tubeless rims is the biggest problem for most people/equipment. Wet or dry fit is debatable, but the sealant does act as a lube on initial fit, in my experience many tyres don't fully seat (pop) until 100 psi plus - then let them down a bit!

Learning what worms etc will/will not fix is worthwhile, carry a spare tube and tyre boot for the cuts that are not fixable (either operator error or simple reality), tyre boots made from bits of old tyres will bond with the latex compounds and fix the worst flint cuts I have seen but should only be used with a tube.

Tubeless tyre removal is always messy - latex sealant gets everywhere.

Valve cores do get clogged up with sealant, I keep the cores from knackered non tubeless tubes.

Running a tubeless set up on non tubeless rims is possible but without the ridges in the rims, when they lose pressure they will unseat the beads and be impossible to re seat with roadside inflation technology.

I abandoned tubeless and reverted to tubed, no regrets - I do have the compressors to make initial fitment easy (35cfm with 100litre reservoir), I just hated tyres that were always soft/flat and only stopped leaking about 30psi.

[Kim]

also thinking of the recumbent which is a right PITA to do a roadside puncture repair on, can I convert any-old rim to tubeless by replacing the rim tape and using appropriate tyres?

If my experience of trying to tubeless-ify the Red Baron is anything to go by, it'll either work fine or it'll be a world of pain, depending on the shape of the rim.

It Just Worked™ using a Stans tubeless kit with a Kinlin XR240 and a 40-406 Schwalbe Pro One.  I've yet to get its 559 equivalent to work with either of the potential wheels I'd like to use it with.  One rim has a deep groove that seems to prevent the rubbery bit of the valve from making a decent seal - I've tried several types of valve, it's a choice between conincal ones not sealing, and square ones getting in the way of the bead and preventing the tyre from initially inflating.  The other rim failed for indeterminate reasons (slow leak either at the valve or past the tape), and I gave up in favour of putting a tube back in so that the bike would be race-ready on time.  I need to clean it up and try again from scratch, as it seems likely to work with a bit of persuading.

Obviously there are countless 559 rims intended for tubeless operation.  They're all designed for wide MTB tyres.   

What is interesting is that when fitted without a tube, all the problems I'd previously had getting Pro Ones to seat properly disappeared.  They just pop into place.

[rafletcher]

Getting new tyres to form an initial seal and then "pop" over the ridges on tubeless rims is the biggest problem for most people/equipment. Wet or dry fit is debatable, but the sealant does act as a lube on initial fit, in my experience many tyres don't fully seat (pop) until 100 psi plus - then let them down a bit!

Learning what worms etc will/will not fix is worthwhile, carry a spare tube and tyre boot for the cuts that are not fixable (either operator error or simple reality), tyre boots made from bits of old tyres will bond with the latex compounds and fix the worst flint cuts I have seen but should only be used with a tube.

Tubeless tyre removal is always messy - latex sealant gets everywhere.

Valve cores do get clogged up with sealant, I keep the cores from knackered non tubeless tubes.

Running a tubeless set up on non tubeless rims is possible but without the ridges in the rims, when they lose pressure they will unseat the beads and be impossible to re seat with roadside inflation technology.

I abandoned tubeless and reverted to tubed, no regrets - I do have the compressors to make initial fitment easy (35cfm with 100litre reservoir), I just hated tyres that were always soft/flat and only stopped leaking about 30psi.

CO2 inflators can work well at the roadside for reseating tubeless that have popped off, but generally I bung a tube in if it gets that bad. And the temperature drop can “set” the sealant. However a tubeless tyre, once seated and sealed to a tubeless rim, is very unlikely to pop off under deflation. Some people struggle to break the bond that’s made when they want to fit a tube or change a tyre.

I’ve not clogged a valve core so far (I’ve run 3 bikes tubeless for around 3 years) but maybe Iv3 been lucky.

Initial fit I use a detergent mix in a plant misting sprayer.

[sojournermike]

My experience of tubeless has been almost completely positive.

Hot Flatus summed up tubeless valves perfectly. Get some spare cores. Top up sealant every 3-4 months - I’m currently using Magic Milk High Fibre, but have used Orange Seal Endurance and Cafe Latex in the past.

I would avoid setting up non-tubeless rims tubeless. It may work until it doesn’t. One of the big gains of tubeless is that, even if a puncture doesn’t seal, the tyre deflates slowly and tends to stay on the rim. An on-the be less rim is much more likely to have the tyre unseat and lose pressure quickly.

I have set up a few larger non-tubeless tyres tubeless on suitable rims. Hard to recommend now and you need to be careful with pressure(!)

I only have a track pump to install and seat tyres. The odd one has proved difficult, but never impossible. Most seat first time. I’ve only once had to walk - didn’t take any anchovies and riding Challenge Paris-Roubaix HTLR tyres on a cold wet evening - the tyre was damaged at the edge of the tread and the flexing of the carcass kept undoing the seal. I actually rode it most of the way back before it fell off the bead shelf - see above.

So my experience is very different to BFC’s. The other side of my experience is how instantly a tyre can completely demount from a rim when a latex tube splits. That’s not funny at speed.

Mike

[Cudzoziemiec]

So my experience is very different to BFC’s. The other side of my experience is how instantly a tyre can completely demount from a rim when a latex tube splits. That’s not funny at speed.

Mike

I have seen that happen (think it was an ordinary butyl tube). Rider stayed on, doing at least 20mph downhill, but scary to see. And I think Kim has form in this area...

[Hot Flatus]

It's certainly true that people are keen to point out the weaknesses of certain modern technologies whilst having a blindspot for the stuff they prefer. Never had a tyre roll on a tubeless. Nor a blowout. Have had it with tubed several times, once resulting in concussion.

There is no perfect system. As I've said before, my view of tubeless is that it is not maintenance free. The advantage is that generally you get to do the maintenance at a place and time of your choice, rather than at the roadside out of the blue.

After  7 year years of use across several bikes I use tubeless for the october-april commuter and tubed for everything else. The tubeless tyres get removed in April, and generally the wheels get re-taped with fresh valves every couple of years. I pop a new core in every 3-4 months when I top up because they cost 10p and I might as well.  If I get a few punctures in a row I know it is probably time to changes the tyre. Maybe I lose £4 worth of use through changing early but I'd rather that than get punctures and need to top up more frequently. Ditto tubed tyres actually. I see no point penny-pinching with anything on a bike as breakdowns are a hassle.

[Kim]

So my experience is very different to BFC’s. The other side of my experience is how instantly a tyre can completely demount from a rim when a latex tube splits. That’s not funny at speed.

Mike

I have seen that happen (think it was an ordinary butyl tube). Rider stayed on, doing at least 20mph downhill, but scary to see. And I think Kim has form in this area...

Yep, I was doing almost 40, hit some unseen object and blew out the (standard butyl) tube with a snakebite (tyre was at 85PSI, because the Baron is very fussy about front tyre pressure).  It also made a substantial dent in the rim.  Thankfully I was lying down on the job and merely lost skin (and fibreglass, and a bit of shoe) rather than teeth or anything.

The way I see it, that sort of catastrophic failure is less likely with tubeless, even if it's going to be a faff to get it going again afterwards.  (Which doesn't matter for track racing, as I'm either swapping wheels or DNFing.)

[Cudzoziemiec]

Presumably a dented rim is even more likely to immobilise tubeless wheels than tubed (though I guess you can always stick a tube in) but as I remember your tale, it was the rider that was most immobilised...

[Hot Flatus]

I've had a dented tubeless rim for 4 years. Wasn't an issue. Finally got round to taken a spanner to it and removing dent.

[sojournermike]

Presumably a dented rim is even more likely to immobilise tubeless wheels than tubed (though I guess you can always stick a tube in) but as I remember your tale, it was the rider that was most immobilised...

I once dented a tubeless rim descending Greenhow hill when I’d managed to let the pressure drop to about 10psi - issue was really that I’d let the sealant dry. Tyre stayed on although the back of the bike got a bit squirrels at that pressure and a sealant top up had everything hunky dory again. As Hot Flatus says, tubeless isn’t maintenance free.

[mrcharly-YHT]

This stuff looks impressive
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/specials/vittoria-air-liner

Impressed the tester.

[Kim]

Presumably a dented rim is even more likely to immobilise tubeless wheels than tubed (though I guess you can always stick a tube in) but as I remember your tale, it was the rider that was most immobilised...

I had actually swapped the tube and got the tyre reinflated, and was in the process of trying to bend the front derailleur into something approximating the shape of a front derailleur by the time the rescue party arrived.  Funny stuff, adrenaline.

[Kim]

This stuff looks impressive
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/specials/vittoria-air-liner

Impressed the tester.

That's clever...

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've removed the tube, installed the tubeless valve, refitted the tyre, pumped and – no. The bead is not reseating. I probably need one of those blastomatic air-chamber pumps. The tyre (Panaracer Gravelking) has always been quite floppy so it's not a big surprise.

[rafletcher]

I've removed the tube, installed the tubeless valve, refitted the tyre, pumped and – no. The bead is not reseating. I probably need one of those blastomatic air-chamber pumps. The tyre (Panaracer Gravelking) has always been quite floppy so it's not a big surprise.

 If you don't want to get a new pump, try an Airshot.

[Cudzoziemiec]

One of these?
https://off.road.cc/content/review/pumps-and-co2-inflators/airshot-tubeless-inflator-828

[rafletcher]

Yep, it's about 1/3 the price of a Joe Blow Booster.

[Cudzoziemiec]

 

[Cudzoziemiec]

Took it to a local shop (five minutes walk away). He connected it to a compressor. No joy. Put sealant in, connected it again. Eventually got it to seat. Numerous pinprick holes where sealant was leaking out. "This is the problem with setting up tubeless on old tyres" he said. But it's seated and holding pressure now. Told me to let air out slowly so as not to break bead seal, then add "more sealant than it recommends".