Tubeless for Dummies

[De Sisti]

The difference is...it almost never gets used 

I offered a spare tube to my friend and then used my pump* to inflate his tyre. I also used
my pump on the the tyre of a Gloucester CC rider, who had punctured right next to where we
were sorting out our problem. He attempted to inflate it, first with a failed cannister and then
with a pump the size of a pencil.



* Zefal HPX size 4

[sojournermike]

The difference is...it almost never gets used 

I offered a spare tube to my friend and then used my pump* to inflate his tyre. I also used
my pump on the the tyre of a Gloucester CC rider, who had punctured right next to where we
were sorting out our problem. He attempted to inflate it, first with a failed cannister and then
with a pump the size of a pencil.



* Zefal HPX size 4

You are the sort of person I hope to meet when I am in punctured need!

[chrisbainbridge]

I have moved to mucoff sealant which is not ammonia based, had good reviews and has a handy little roadside top up pouch as well. It is also co2 compatible.
I have not retaped wheels but I do top up the sealant regularly.

[Peat]

I don't know if it's my pump in particular, but I use it so infrequently thanks to tubelessness (cursed now) that on occasions i've needed it, it's not worked very well due to dry dusty seals. I have had to disassemble it at the roadside and clean all the rubber parts with spittle to get decent suck/blow.

Anyway, I now have a 6 monthly reminder setup to service it at home. Keeps it working it seems.

[Phil Hears A Who]

Has anyone ever used a layer of gorilla tape followed by a layer of proper tubeless tape to tape a rim? Any reason this would be a stupid idea?

I've got a set of Hope 20Five rims, and they seem particularly resistant to being properly taped, pissing air out of the spoke holes after seating the tire and giving it a good shake. I've tried Stan's and Schwalbe tape, and two otherwise reliable shops have also struggled with them. I've had gorilla tape recommended for stubborn rims as it apparently conforms better to the channel and seals the holes better than proper tubeless tape, but have read about issues about gorilla tape being porous, and also getting pushed too deep into the spoke holes at road pressures. I'm thinking a layer of gorilla tape to properly seal the spoke holes, followed by a layer of tubeless tape to provide strength and block sealant travelling through the gorilla tape. Thoughts from the panel?

[sojournermike]

Has anyone ever used a layer of gorilla tape followed by a layer of proper tubeless tape to tape a rim? Any reason this would be a stupid idea?

I've got a set of Hope 20Five rims, and they seem particularly resistant to being properly taped, pissing air out of the spoke holes after seating the tire and giving it a good shake. I've tried Stan's and Schwalbe tape, and two otherwise reliable shops have also struggled with them. I've had gorilla tape recommended for stubborn rims as it apparently conforms better to the channel and seals the holes better than proper tubeless tape, but have read about issues about gorilla tape being porous, and also getting pushed too deep into the spoke holes at road pressures. I'm thinking a layer of gorilla tape to properly seal the spoke holes, followed by a layer of tubeless tape to provide strength and block sealant travelling through the gorilla tape. Thoughts from the panel?

I use a green high temperature polyester masking tape (for powder coating) by 3M. Sometimes I use a thinner, clear and more flexible version underneath to improve adhesion. My main tape is ‘similar’ to the effeto mariposa tape and I much prefer it to Tesa/Stans.

Gorilla tape can be a bit marginal at road pressures but sticks well (leaving residue mind) and is also a bit too thick for road use and comfortable tyre fitting.

If you’re local to Harrogate I’ll tape up your rims quite happily.

Otherwise:

https://www.vikingtapes.co.uk/collections/polyester-tapes-flash-tapes/products/3m-8992-polyester-tape-50mm-x-66m?variant=32868785520703

[Dickyelsdon]

Has anyone ever used a layer of gorilla tape followed by a layer of proper tubeless tape to tape a rim? Any reason this would be a stupid idea?

I've got a set of Hope 20Five rims, and they seem particularly resistant to being properly taped, pissing air out of the spoke holes after seating the tire and giving it a good shake. I've tried Stan's and Schwalbe tape, and two otherwise reliable shops have also struggled with them. I've had gorilla tape recommended for stubborn rims as it apparently conforms better to the channel and seals the holes better than proper tubeless tape, but have read about issues about gorilla tape being porous, and also getting pushed too deep into the spoke holes at road pressures. I'm thinking a layer of gorilla tape to properly seal the spoke holes, followed by a layer of tubeless tape to provide strength and block sealant travelling through the gorilla tape. Thoughts from the panel?

20five rims look to have a very deep center channel. Taping into that and keeping the tape the full width of the rim looks challenging.

When youve found leaking and then removed the tyre, where was the tape?  Id guess pressure pushed the tape into the channel and pulled it away from the edges?  Really you want the tape almost up the sides of the rim so the tyre sits 'on/in' the tape to make a good seal with no path for the air to get under the tape, that might be hard with this rim. Id probably try a wider tape so it has spare width to settle properly then trim off the excess, tho at this point you are probably almost at the cost of the rims in tape  :'( 

Before you retape tho do check the valve, deep/curved rims like those can be tough to fully seat the valve. Many atfermarket vavles are just have a rubber cone for a seat/seal and these often wedge in the hole at the sides and leave a tiny air path at the deepest point. If you think this may be the issue there are a few options, grease the seal, bathroom sealant on the seal, an instant clear/gel patch over the hole first (this is a trick schwalbe have inculded in some kits before, they are thick and squishy so help seat uneven gaps), or a valve with a different shape seat/seal such as zefal.

[Phil Hears A Who]

I use a green high temperature polyester masking tape (for powder coating) by 3M. Sometimes I use a thinner, clear and more flexible version underneath to improve adhesion. My main tape is ‘similar’ to the effeto mariposa tape and I much prefer it to Tesa/Stans.

Gorilla tape can be a bit marginal at road pressures but sticks well (leaving residue mind) and is also a bit too thick for road use and comfortable tyre fitting.

If you’re local to Harrogate I’ll tape up your rims quite happily.

Otherwise:

https://www.vikingtapes.co.uk/collections/polyester-tapes-flash-tapes/products/3m-8992-polyester-tape-50mm-x-66m?variant=32868785520703

Thanks for the tips. I'm not familiar with effeto mariposa tape, why do you prefer it to Tesa/Stan's? Unfortunately Harrogate is a bit of a hike for me, but thanks.

20five rims look to have a very deep center channel. Taping into that and keeping the tape the full width of the rim looks challenging.

When youve found leaking and then removed the tyre, where was the tape?  Id guess pressure pushed the tape into the channel and pulled it away from the edges?  Really you want the tape almost up the sides of the rim so the tyre sits 'on/in' the tape to make a good seal with no path for the air to get under the tape, that might be hard with this rim. Id probably try a wider tape so it has spare width to settle properly then trim off the excess, tho at this point you are probably almost at the cost of the rims in tape  :'( 

Before you retape tho do check the valve, deep/curved rims like those can be tough to fully seat the valve. Many atfermarket vavles are just have a rubber cone for a seat/seal and these often wedge in the hole at the sides and leave a tiny air path at the deepest point. If you think this may be the issue there are a few options, grease the seal, bathroom sealant on the seal, an instant clear/gel patch over the hole first (this is a trick schwalbe have inculded in some kits before, they are thick and squishy so help seat uneven gaps), or a valve with a different shape seat/seal such as zefal.

Yep, I think it is the channel shape that's the problem, spoke holes extend to where the channel curves up towards the rim, so the holes aren't flat, I think this is what makes it tricky. In terms of tape width my most recent attempt was 25 mm Stan's (rim internal 20 mm), and it looked like it was still pretty well up against the rim.

I'll have a think about different valves, I have switched to some new valves so will try the valves that came with the wheels (the factory tape job + valves worked just fine, but had to remove for both wheels to be rebuilt recently).

[D.A.L.E.]

Has anyone ever used a layer of gorilla tape followed by a layer of proper tubeless tape to tape a rim? Any reason this would be a stupid idea?

I've got a set of Hope 20Five rims, and they seem particularly resistant to being properly taped, pissing air out of the spoke holes after seating the tire and giving it a good shake. I've tried Stan's and Schwalbe tape, and two otherwise reliable shops have also struggled with them. I've had gorilla tape recommended for stubborn rims as it apparently conforms better to the channel and seals the holes better than proper tubeless tape, but have read about issues about gorilla tape being porous, and also getting pushed too deep into the spoke holes at road pressures. I'm thinking a layer of gorilla tape to properly seal the spoke holes, followed by a layer of tubeless tape to provide strength and block sealant travelling through the gorilla tape. Thoughts from the panel?

I use a green high temperature polyester masking tape (for powder coating) by 3M. Sometimes I use a thinner, clear and more flexible version underneath to improve adhesion. My main tape is ‘similar’ to the effeto mariposa tape and I much prefer it to Tesa/Stans.

Gorilla tape can be a bit marginal at road pressures but sticks well (leaving residue mind) and is also a bit too thick for road use and comfortable tyre fitting.

If you’re local to Harrogate I’ll tape up your rims quite happily.

Otherwise:

https://www.vikingtapes.co.uk/collections/polyester-tapes-flash-tapes/products/3m-8992-polyester-tape-50mm-x-66m?variant=32868785520703

Interesting, I need some 50mm wide tape so will give that a shot. Viking is usually who I buy my Tesa tape from.

[morbihan]

I can confirm that if you inadvertently leave a tubeless set up languishing for 18 months, there is a good chance you won't be able to re-inflate successfully.
2 bikes. Both X light casing.  One with minimal use resealed in the end. The other with about 4500km on the tires, (but still good tread)  couldn't be resolved.
I actually binned the tires and put a new set on with tubes.

[sojournermike]

Has anyone ever used a layer of gorilla tape followed by a layer of proper tubeless tape to tape a rim? Any reason this would be a stupid idea?

I've got a set of Hope 20Five rims, and they seem particularly resistant to being properly taped, pissing air out of the spoke holes after seating the tire and giving it a good shake. I've tried Stan's and Schwalbe tape, and two otherwise reliable shops have also struggled with them. I've had gorilla tape recommended for stubborn rims as it apparently conforms better to the channel and seals the holes better than proper tubeless tape, but have read about issues about gorilla tape being porous, and also getting pushed too deep into the spoke holes at road pressures. I'm thinking a layer of gorilla tape to properly seal the spoke holes, followed by a layer of tubeless tape to provide strength and block sealant travelling through the gorilla tape. Thoughts from the panel?

I use a green high temperature polyester masking tape (for powder coating) by 3M. Sometimes I use a thinner, clear and more flexible version underneath to improve adhesion. My main tape is ‘similar’ to the effeto mariposa tape and I much prefer it to Tesa/Stans.

Gorilla tape can be a bit marginal at road pressures but sticks well (leaving residue mind) and is also a bit too thick for road use and comfortable tyre fitting.

If you’re local to Harrogate I’ll tape up your rims quite happily.

Otherwise:

https://www.vikingtapes.co.uk/collections/polyester-tapes-flash-tapes/products/3m-8992-polyester-tape-50mm-x-66m?variant=32868785520703

Interesting, I need some 50mm wide tape so will give that a shot. Viking is usually who I buy my Tesa tape from.

Sorry, missed the question! I prefer the 3M to stans/tesa as it’s got a little bit more flexibility and so can be stretched into the well more effectively. I fit it tight and it moulds well to most rims.

On some rims it doesn’t want to stick initially when under tension but I solve that either by holding it down or using an ‘under layer’ of very thin polyester tape with a rubber based adhesive - I forget the number. This is even stretchier but I’m not happy that it will cope with road pressures, so I don’t use it alone.

Mike

[Andrew Br]

Anyone with experience running 38mm GravelKing SK + tyres tubeless ?

Chatting to the mechanic in the (not)LBS, he wasn't a fan; his experience was that they just didn't stay up no matter which wheels he used them on.
I'm disappointed because I have them on the Ti bike with tubes in and they are very, very good for the riding that I do. Those rims are not tubeless ready and I'm not going to risk a "gorilla" build.

The new bike is tubeless ready and I'm running the OE wheels and tyres (tyres are WTB Nano TCS Light, 700 x 40c) tubeless with Vittoria gravel tyre liners. So far, the tyres been impressively air tight but they are really "draggy" on the road, so much so that I'm thinking of changing them already; I've done 100km.......

[Hot Flatus]

I've got them on the gravel bike. Tell your mechanic to put some more sealant in (and something like Stans which is not too thick)

Mine stay up better than anything else I have. Haven't pumped them up for weeks. Maybe months.

[Andrew Br]

Thanks HF, useful to know.
I specified Vittoria's sealant based on its good reviews (yes, yes, I know) and that it was the only one compatible with the tyre liners (BS, cough ! BS) and is ammonia free. Last bit is the most relevant IMO.

I feel a new pair of GK SKs are in my near future  .
Plus some frowning at the (not)LBS  .

[Ian H]

I'm also using 38mm tubeless GravelKings.  I'd certainly recommend them.  Success might depend on using compatible rims.

[Sergeant Pluck]

I used 38mm Gravelkings, the cheaper version of the almost slick ones, for several months. Absolutely no bother at all tubeless, and even though one of the two had previously been used with a tube and the casing had a pre-existing hole.

A very nice tyre to ride although in 38mm on my bike they tended to “climb” a bit on ridges or the edges of yellow lines.

[Peat]

I went away from Panaracer as the Gravelkings on my and my partners bikes I was running started weeping/sweating around the sidewalls (Cafelatex sealant at the time. Back on Stans nowadays). Since been switching my bikes over to Pirelli's. I have been really impressed with the Gravel M tyre the last 2 years and have enjoyed a trouble free winter on the road with the Cintuarto's. Decent rubber. 

[Cudzoziemiec]

I tried setting up 38mm Gravelkings tubeless. I got one done at home but couldn't get the other to seat or stay up, so took it to LBS – where it exploded, splattering the shop with sealant. So for a while I ran the bike with one tubed and one tubeless tyre, till I got a puncture that deflated the tubeless tyre completely and was unable to reseat it with just a frame fitting pump. But a key point might be that the tyres were already fairly old when I tried to set them up tubeless. Rims are H+Sons Hydra.

[Peat]

That reminds me, the GK SK's were the only tubeless tyre i've had that burped itself off the rim whilst riding.

This was ~2018. I've found that more recent TLR rim/tyre combos i've mounted have a more positive 'crack/pop' and are less likely to unbead during a deflation.

[Ian H]

With a difficult to seat new GravelKing, I stuck a tube in it, left it for a day or so, removed the tube and it popped on easily. 

With tubeless  rims I look for square flat shoulders, preferably with a slight ridge along the inner edge, and a deep enough well so as not to make tyre fitting impossible. I can fit & remove the GKs without levers, but they seem quite secure.

[finch]

Have been having a good / reliable experience with Schwalbe One Addix TLE on non UST 2016 Ksyrium elites - no rim tape - with vittoria sealant which is what I’ve been using with the tubeless on the winter bike. Tyres went on easy , 30ml sealant in , C02 to seat then standard track pump - et voila.

I know some have said don’t use this stuff on non UST rims but I’ve been blasting about all over the place , cornering as per always ( fast ) bunny hopping holes etc and haven’t had a burp or a single issue - though to be fair I’m quite large so I’m running 90psi

It was the entire winter of riding with no punctures I was aware of that convinced me - TPU are good but the tubeless has been a revelation to me

[D.A.L.E.]

Anyone with experience running 38mm GravelKing SK + tyres tubeless ?

Chatting to the mechanic in the (not)LBS, he wasn't a fan; his experience was that they just didn't stay up no matter which wheels he used them on.
I'm disappointed because I have them on the Ti bike with tubes in and they are very, very good for the riding that I do. Those rims are not tubeless ready and I'm not going to risk a "gorilla" build.

The new bike is tubeless ready and I'm running the OE wheels and tyres (tyres are WTB Nano TCS Light, 700 x 40c) tubeless with Vittoria gravel tyre liners. So far, the tyres been impressively air tight but they are really "draggy" on the road, so much so that I'm thinking of changing them already; I've done 100km.......

Setup dozens, never had a problem.

Why bother with wasteful CO2 when you can make your own IED for tubeless setups - https://youtu.be/pasrZtlfrGs

Used one of these to seat a bunch of 29+/27.5+ tyres at home, works incredibly well. It's even worked where a compressor has failed in the shop.

[robgul]

Anyone with experience running 38mm GravelKing SK + tyres tubeless ?

Chatting to the mechanic in the (not)LBS, he wasn't a fan; his experience was that they just didn't stay up no matter which wheels he used them on.
I'm disappointed because I have them on the Ti bike with tubes in and they are very, very good for the riding that I do. Those rims are not tubeless ready and I'm not going to risk a "gorilla" build.

The new bike is tubeless ready and I'm running the OE wheels and tyres (tyres are WTB Nano TCS Light, 700 x 40c) tubeless with Vittoria gravel tyre liners. So far, the tyres been impressively air tight but they are really "draggy" on the road, so much so that I'm thinking of changing them already; I've done 100km.......

Setup dozens, never had a problem.

Why bother with wasteful CO2 when you can make your own IED for tubeless setups - https://youtu.be/pasrZtlfrGs

Used one of these to seat a bunch of 29+/27.5+ tyres at home, works incredibly well. It's even worked where a compressor has failed in the shop.

If he'd rubbed some of the lube stuff around the tyre bead it would probably have seated at lower pressure in the tank . . . 

My weapon of choice is an SKS RideAir tank - with gauge and safety cut out - not cheap at about £50 but usually works first time.

[Lightning Phil]

I know some have said don’t use this stuff on non UST rims

The tyres you mention are not  UST.  Very few tubeless rims are UST these days, and road UST as a standard is very recent and not really taken off much.  UST for mtn bikes has been a standard since about 1999.  UST tyres are heavier and airtight without sealant. Ran UST on mtn bike from 2006.

[finch]

What I meant was loads of people say don’t use tubeless tyres on non “tubeless” rims