Author Topic: Grammar that makes you cringe  (Read 835224 times)

rower40

  • Not my boat. Now sold.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #175 on: 25 June, 2009, 07:58:36 am »
And when you correct spelling her? ;D

[Yoda]
Word Order Not Important Is.
[/Yoda]
Be Naughty; save Santa a trip

Flying_Monkey

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #176 on: 25 June, 2009, 08:43:04 am »
But drossal - most of the 'rules' were pretty arbtirary decisions by the eighteenth century grammarians who favoured etymology and consistent word order over commonly understood usage and communication. Often the aesthetics of the grammarian style (because it is a style), are horrible; as Winston Churchill commented: "This is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I will not put!"  ;)

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #177 on: 25 June, 2009, 08:58:12 am »
When did the written word start taking a much bigger part on our world? Could it have been in the 18th Century and could that be the main reason for favouring "etymology and consistent word order over commonly understood usage"?
It is simpler than it looks.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #178 on: 25 June, 2009, 09:10:11 am »
But drossal - most of the 'rules' were pretty arbtirary decisions by the eighteenth century grammarians who favoured etymology and consistent word order over commonly understood usage and communication.
"commonly understood usage" ?

Hmm. My experience seems similar to Drossall; breaking the rules generally makes things _harder_ to understand. Having 10 ways to spell 'bought' doesn't help anyone.

"Could of" ?
"Wich you" ?

Common perhaps, but not easily understood.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #179 on: 25 June, 2009, 09:17:58 am »


Hmm. My experience seems similar to Drossall; breaking the rules generally makes things _harder_ to understand. Having 10 ways to spell 'bought' doesn't help anyone.

"Could of" ?
"Wich you" ?

Common perhaps, but not easily understood.

There's a subtle difference between breaking the rules and making mistakes.

Informal usage is different from formal usage, but formal usage is becoming rarer. For instance, many serious publications now use apostrophised abbreviations.

LEE

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #180 on: 25 June, 2009, 09:24:36 am »
My pet hate...

the "10 items or less" signs in my local Sainsbury's.   >:(

I've been known to carry a marker pen around and correct them...  ;D

M&S and Waitrose both use 'fewer'. Shop at either of these and save on marker pens.

I prefer "Less".  It confuses the pedants and means there are less fewer less fewer (oh, what the f**k?) less people in the "10 items or less" queue

Really Ancien

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #181 on: 25 June, 2009, 09:27:10 am »
Good grammar places good words in a setting that helps them shine and sparkle like fine crystal and lifts ideas from the page. Most of what's written deserves to stay stuck to the page, out of harms way. I dedicate this sentiment to all those marking scripts in the fine weather, when they should be out on the bike, as I will be today.

Damon.

LEE

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #182 on: 25 June, 2009, 09:31:31 am »
Good grammar places good words in a setting that helps them shine and sparkle like fine crystal and lifts ideas from the page. Most of what's written deserves to stay stuck to the page, out of harms way. I dedicate this sentiment to all those marking scripts in the fine weather, when they should be out on the bike, as I will be today.

Damon.

Nicely put.

Shakespear would have been banned by grammar-nazis of his day.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #183 on: 25 June, 2009, 09:32:30 am »
Good grammar places good words in a setting that helps them shine and sparkle like fine crystal and lifts ideas from the page. Most of what's written deserves to stay stuck to the page, out of harms way.
Oh I say, well put sir :)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #184 on: 25 June, 2009, 09:32:44 am »
Poor grammar and spelling, whether intentional or not, are like CAPITAL LETTERS. They slow down comprehension. Caveat Scriptor.
It is simpler than it looks.

Tourist Tony

  • Supermassive mobile flesh-toned black hole
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #185 on: 25 June, 2009, 09:36:50 am »
Good grammar places good words in a setting that helps them shine and sparkle like fine crystal and lifts ideas from the page. Most of what's written deserves to stay stuck to the page, out of harms way. I dedicate this sentiment to all those marking scripts in the fine weather, when they should be out on the bike, as I will be today.

Damon.
;D

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #186 on: 25 June, 2009, 09:40:36 am »
Good grammar places good words in a setting that helps them shine and sparkle like fine crystal and lifts ideas from the page. Most of what's written deserves to stay stuck to the page, out of harms way. I dedicate this sentiment to all those marking scripts in the fine weather, when they should be out on the bike, as I will be today.

Damon.
;D
Pedagog paederast pedalo pedant.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #187 on: 25 June, 2009, 09:41:24 am »
Poor grammar and spelling, whether intentional or not, are like CAPITAL LETTERS. They slow down comprehension. Caveat Scriptor.

(Probably not a good example; that sentence makes it clear what capital letters are, thus aiding comprehension. ;) )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #188 on: 25 June, 2009, 09:52:19 am »
There's a subtle difference between breaking the rules and making mistakes.

Amen to that.

I take the view that the rules are there to help you - they are an aid to clear communication. If you're a good writer with a feel for how language works, you can often get away with breaking the rules for the sake of style.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #189 on: 25 June, 2009, 10:06:31 am »
Breaking the rules v. mistakes: that is why I like phrases such as, "That made oi laugh," and, "I's 'appy, I is," but dislike, "Help me loose weight," and, "You should of peddled up that hill."

Whale putt.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LEE

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #190 on: 25 June, 2009, 10:23:35 am »
Breaking the rules v. mistakes: that is why I like phrases such as, "That made oi laugh," and, "I's 'appy, I is," but dislike, "Help me loose weight," and, "You should of peddled up that hill."

Maybe we should all buy that book by the bitter women who got shagged by an ungrateful and dyslexic Panda (I assume that's what it's about from the title).

Really Ancien

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #191 on: 25 June, 2009, 11:05:59 am »
Good grammar places good words in a setting that helps them shine and sparkle like fine crystal and lifts ideas from the page. Most of what's written deserves to stay stuck to the page, out of harms way. I dedicate this sentiment to all those marking scripts in the fine weather, when they should be out on the bike, as I will be today.

Damon.
;D
That's punctuation, the apostrophe is an example of mutation, the pivotal problem there is the difference between 'it's',  i.e. 'it is' and 'its', the possessive. It's difficult to predict how this problem will meet its resolution.

Damon.

Flying_Monkey

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #192 on: 25 June, 2009, 12:20:41 pm »
"commonly understood usage" ?

Hmm. My experience seems similar to Drossall; breaking the rules generally makes things _harder_ to understand. Having 10 ways to spell 'bought' doesn't help anyone.

That's only because you're at the fag-end of an educational system which has (often literally) beaten in an entirely constructed and elitist 'correctness' to generations of kids. It is the same mentality that regards Scots or Geordie as 'wrong' (rather than 'wrang'  ;) ) and thinks there is something good about 'received pronouciation' (as it that which is received in polite society - in other words, amongst snobs).

Thankfully, this is now changing again and we are once again recognizing English as the rich, messy thessauric stew which has made it so successful and adaptable a means of communication as well as a wonderful medium for song, poetry and prose.

Gan canny like, kidda.  ;D

Flying_Monkey

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #193 on: 25 June, 2009, 12:26:38 pm »
BTW, I recommend that everyone who thinks that there is such a thing as 'correct' English and immutable 'rules' has a gander at David Crystal's The Stories of English. That'll learn you. 

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #194 on: 25 June, 2009, 12:30:25 pm »
That's only because you're at the fag-end of an educational system which has (often literally) beaten in an entirely constructed and elitist 'correctness' to generations of kids. It is the same mentality that regards Scots or Geordie as 'wrong' (rather than 'wrang'  ;) ) and thinks there is something good about 'received pronouciation' (as it that which is received in polite society - in other words, amongst snobs).

But there are plenty of 'snobs' who I think speak very unclearly.

(Slight tangent: Part of me thinks that the global mix of language across our planet is a nice thing that should be encouraged (perhaps even Welsh, but not Geordie). But then I remember that most conflict is due to people not talking. People who speak different languages are less likely to jaw not war. Would you fight for the right to speak funny?)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Really Ancien

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #195 on: 25 June, 2009, 12:50:13 pm »
Diversity promotes vigour in language and unity promotes understanding. Idiomatic speech has its Shibboleths to weed out the interloper and written language acheives the same through grammar. Increasingly there is a schism between those who write as they speak and those who speak as they read and write. I do have thoughts which are ungrammatical, I call them feelings, and it's rude to burden folk with emotions which are not resolved enough to be correctly parsed.

Damon

Flying_Monkey

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #196 on: 25 June, 2009, 03:53:47 pm »
Diversity promotes vigour in language and unity promotes understanding.

That's a nice slogan but philosophically not robust at all! There is no necessary reason why we would all understand each other perfectly if we all spoke exactly the same way. It might create the superficial impression that we should, but that is a different thing. D'ya ken?

Quote
Idiomatic speech has its Shibboleths to weed out the interloper and written language acheives the same through grammar.

It simply isn't that clear cut - grammar is not designed 'to weed out interlopers' - because grammar in general is not the same as the concept of one kind of 'correct grammar'. Grammar is functional in all different kinds of ways, and had served different purposes throughout history. The creation of 'correct grammar' may well be designed to exclude and control - that has indeed been my argument. But not grammar in general - that is simply an emergent property of language.
Quote

Increasingly there is a schism between those who write as they speak and those who speak as they read and write. I do have thoughts which are ungrammatical, I call them feelings, and it's rude to burden folk with emotions which are not resolved enough to be correctly parsed.

That sounds rather like something Doctor Johnson would have said, it is every bit is witty and callous and ideologically loaded. So ironically it is an example of what you have said is not desirable - illogical and emotional, whilst at the same time being 'well parsed'.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #197 on: 25 June, 2009, 03:57:45 pm »
... and unity promotes understanding.

That's a nice slogan but philosophically not robust at all! There is no necessary reason why we would all understand each other perfectly if we all spoke exactly the same way. It might create the superficial impression that we should, but that is a different thing.

Well, I have to admit that, despite using my own mother tongue, you have written something there that I do not understand at all. Explain yourself sir!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #198 on: 25 June, 2009, 04:10:04 pm »
"You and I" when it should be "you and me". Also see "He & I" in place of "him & me", etc.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Really Ancien

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #199 on: 25 June, 2009, 05:01:00 pm »
Shibboleths are a good thing, I can safely ignore e-mails that say 'You Log-In details is faulty'.
English is one of the less rigorous grammars, languages such as 'Hoch Deutsch' erect higher barriers between the colloquial and the correct.
I was wondering what it is that makes Obama seem so 'Presidential'. We believe that he thinks in those rounded rhetorical phrases, and that it betokens the keen analytical mind of a law professor. In contrast George W Bush used a colloquial Texan designed to indicate native cunning. Outside the USA it just made him seem dim. There are horses for courses and it can pay to adopt a universal idiom to avoid ambiguities.
I'm all for diversity though. Nearly everyone speaks in fractured language, punctuated with particles of speech, just like Obama when he's ambushed with a question without prior notice.
Anyone who doesn't do that is perceived as a con-man.

Damon.