Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: Riggers on 11 September, 2018, 01:55:27 pm
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Sunday just gone, I was coming up School Hill, in Lewes, East Sussex approaching the traffic lights near the Law courts. A rather lovely looking brand new Ferrari purred away from the lights just in front of me, then . . . a dozy cow (for that's what she was) driving some Panda-type car strolled past me, but so close I hardly had to reach my arm out and bang loudly 3 times on the windows. The two small kids in the car with her were shocked, but not as much as me. Bloody useless driver seemed to shrink in her seat, but of course carried on, not stopping to ask if I was okay.
The 4x4 driver behind me, pulled up alongside, and shouted across his wife in the passenger seat: "Fucking hell mate, are you okay!!? How fucking close was she!!!?
I said I was okay, and he carried on.
I don't know what to do to make myself more visible, other than now trying a 'lollipop', to see if this will make any difference to my visibility.
I've gone past caring what my road bike will look like with a lollipop, and the scathing looks one might receive. Who cares? this one was way too close.
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Plastazote. The stuff that Karrimats are made from.
It can be fashioned with a sharp blade, is reasonably structural (or can be reinforced), will take paint and weighs next to nothing.
I reckon that a bit of foam whittling, and some paint, and you could end up with something which plausibly looks like a garden fork.
Strapped sideways to your rear rack.
Tines pointing towards the right.
I'd be surprised if that doesn't afford you more road-space than a lollipop.
Stay safe out there, Riggers.
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The best 'close pass inhibitor' I ever carried in Brum, was in the form of a large bouquet of flowers looming out of my right pannier. The effect on driving standards around me was astonishing.
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Those lollipop things just seem like a placebo for the rider, and a target for the driver. They don't stick out far enough to make a useful difference (compare with a pannier, or the elbow of a cyclist on a flat-barred bike). Maybe you could fettle a decently wide one?
FWIW, Things I've found that tend to increase passing distances:- Tricycles.
- Unusual loads that look like they might fall off or damage a car, or have inherent comedy value.
- Weird scary recumbents, the lower the better. If you disappear below the nearside wing when they overtake, drivers tend to err on the side of caution[1].
- Trailers (but only some of the time).
- Wobbling.
- As a general rule, if they're videoing you, shouting witty remarks or cat-calling, they tend to pay proper attention to your position and speed. Anything sufficiently interesting changes the priority from "must get in front" to "must get a decent look".
Things I've found that tend to decrease passing distances:- Riding in the gutter (sometimes necessary to avoid a surface hazard).
- Cycle lanes (see above).
- Riding slowly.
- Bromptons.
- Clothing that makes me more likely to be read as male from behind.
- Shit weather.
- Panniers on a recumbent (may just be a side-effect of riding speed).
Things I've found that don't make a jot of difference:
- Hi-vis.
- Lights and reflectors.
- Helmets, although I rarely use them in traffic.
I believe the SCIENCE says that authentic police uniforms are the only thing that really helps clothing-wise.
[1] Except for the ones who are sufficiently incompetent or don't give a fuck.
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The best 'close pass inhibitor' I ever carried in Brum, was in the form of a large bouquet of flowers looming out of my right pannier. The effect on driving standards around me was astonishing.
Priceless! ;D
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The best 'close pass inhibitor' I ever carried in Brum, was in the form of a large bouquet of flowers looming out of my right pannier. The effect on driving standards around me was astonishing.
Who was it that attached a small Christmas tree to their rear-rack for the duration of the festive period? That probably helps.
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Tbh, I think in most cases they either aren't looking or simply don't care, and often both. I remember a few years ago having to evasive action when someone reversed at the light. I asked reasonably why he didn't look in the mirror before doing so and he said 'I did!' I think that sums it up. It's not exactly uncommon for drivers to run over cyclists directly in front of them on the grounds they didn't see a large quite visible object that was evidently there.
Carrying big stuff in a pannier works if they're looking, mostly because they're terrified it might scratch their car, but I've had cars actually brush my panniers. I suspect the only two successful ways to discourage close pass is either to be a bloke who looks like he could idly dismantle a car with his hands or be young, female and in tight lycra. The downside of the latter is that the average male drivers are entranced by this spectacle they'll probably just run someone else over (to be fair, most drivers tend to favour not killing females over males). Not that most of them aren't too busy working their phones to notice any of this.
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The best 'close pass inhibitor' I ever carried in Brum, was in the form of a large bouquet of flowers looming out of my right pannier. The effect on driving standards around me was astonishing.
Who was it that attached a small Christmas tree to their rear-rack for the duration of the festive period? That probably helps.
There have been other iterations, wil have to see if I can find them
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-la8BP3FYGZI/W5fLWjExhfI/AAAAAAAC0_4/T1B5pglyJxA6EYKStKv1f7or5reiab5DACKgBGAs/s1600/Photo0252.jpg)
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The thing I've found best for getting more room is riding at night. I used to think there was an element of "wtf is he doing out on a bike at this time?" but I've found it works as soon as it gets dark, so it's not that. I put it down partly to there being less traffic and more so to drivers perceiving there to be no oncoming traffic unless they see headlights shining round the bend, so they'll happily go right over the centre line even on a blind bend. Which is good for the cyclist being overtaken even if not for the oncoming cyclist they've assumed isn't there.
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The thing I've found best for getting more room is riding at night. I used to think there was an element of "wtf is he doing out on a bike at this time?" but I've found it works as soon as it gets dark, so it's not that. I put it down partly to there being less traffic and more so to drivers perceiving there to be no oncoming traffic unless they see headlights shining round the bend, so they'll happily go right over the centre line even on a blind bend. Which is good for the cyclist being overtaken even if not for the oncoming cyclist they've assumed isn't there.
That's true enough, but not so much in urban areas where there's always another car.
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Wear a blonde wig.
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The thing I've found best for getting more room is riding at night. I used to think there was an element of "wtf is he doing out on a bike at this time?" but I've found it works as soon as it gets dark, so it's not that. I put it down partly to there being less traffic and more so to drivers perceiving there to be no oncoming traffic unless they see headlights shining round the bend, so they'll happily go right over the centre line even on a blind bend. Which is good for the cyclist being overtaken even if not for the oncoming cyclist they've assumed isn't there.
That's true enough, but not so much in urban areas where there's always another car.
No, not in urban areas, but it does work on rural roads you wouldn't want to ride on in the day. I'm probably not qualified to talk about urban areas, despite living in one, as I'm rarely out at rush hours nowadays.
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I was given a wide berth last week when I had a french stick in my saddle bag. I found out why when it subsequently fell out into the road. Under the 5 second rule I still ate the bread ...
It does sound Riggers like the driver probably didn't even see you in the first place- in which case a lollipop/umbrella/fork/flowers/loaf probably would have not made any difference >:(
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It does sound Riggers like the driver probably didn't even see you in the first place- in which case a lollipop/umbrella/fork/flowers/loaf probably would have not made any difference >:(
Indeed.
An interesting bike/load/whatever might draw their attention and help them to see you (at a cognitive level) where they might otherwise be looking for cars and not process the presence of a cyclist, or clock you as a cyclist and make incorrect assumptions about your speed or direction of travel. But that does depend on their eyes pointing in the right direction in the first place, rather than at their phone or fixated on the car in front or whatever...
You can't mitigate the really incompetent or really malicious ones, just be thankful that they're rare.
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my usual technique on the narrow lanes or pinch points is to look back over my right shoulder (when i hear the car coming), wobble towards the middle of the road and back and start pedalling out of saddle rocking the bike side to side pretending i'm pushing very hard. this is very effective, as it gives a message to the driver that i can be unpredictable, but am also trying hard not to hold them up - they usually wait when it's safe to pass (with an odd exception). i also wave them to overtake if they are too hesitant and the road is clear ahead.
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Coincidentally, this (https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/cyclists-in-toronto-riding-with-pool-noodles-to-protect-themselves-from-drivers-1.4082620#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=twitter&_gsc=ESChrcT) popped up in my FB feed.
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Coincidentally, this (https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/cyclists-in-toronto-riding-with-pool-noodles-to-protect-themselves-from-drivers-1.4082620#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=twitter&_gsc=ESChrcT) popped up in my FB feed.
Brilliant
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The most space I ever got was with a helium filled balloon attached to my rear rack. It bobbed around as I cycled and every driver kept out of its way.
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School hill is moderately crap because it has just the wrong mix of pulling over for the shops, not wide enough to pass safely but a hill and drivers who absolutely have to pass a cyclist on a hill, despite the fact you’ll catch them at the next lights because it’s 20mph and busy.
I tend to either go one of the other ways out of Lewes or sit well out in the lane.
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The most space I ever got was with a helium filled balloon attached to my rear rack. It bobbed around as I cycled and every driver kept out of its way.
I once found myself (in a car) behind a cyclist who had a helmet loosely attached to their backpack with some sort of bungee cord. It was bouncing about all over the place, to similar effect.
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Coincidentally, this (https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/cyclists-in-toronto-riding-with-pool-noodles-to-protect-themselves-from-drivers-1.4082620#_gus&_gucid=&_gup=twitter&_gsc=ESChrcT) popped up in my FB feed.
That's almost garden fork shaped.
You know, the fluorescent garden fork kind.
Isn't it?
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I once rolled down Anerley Hill from a physio session at Crystal Palace NSC with an metre-plus of polystyrene roller attach to the back of my bike.
At the lights by Anerley station a car still managed to hit it (just a nudge) trying (and failing) to park next to me. Cue driver studiously ignoring me. Honestly, there's no helping some of them.
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The most space I ever got was with a helium filled balloon attached to my rear rack. It bobbed around as I cycled and every driver kept out of its way.
We got an amazing amount of room, as well as waves and cheers, riding around with a loaded tandem with a "Just Married" balloon. Even in Slough at 10pm. It was very funny!
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The most space I ever got was with a helium filled balloon attached to my rear rack. It bobbed around as I cycled and every driver kept out of its way.
We got an amazing amount of room, as well as waves and cheers, riding around with a loaded tandem with a "Just Married" balloon. Even in Slough at 10pm. It was very funny!
Imagine having to get married every time you want to ride through Slough, though...
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The most space I ever got was with a helium filled balloon attached to my rear rack. It bobbed around as I cycled and every driver kept out of its way.
We got an amazing amount of room, as well as waves and cheers, riding around with a loaded tandem with a "Just Married" balloon. Even in Slough at 10pm. It was very funny!
Imagine having to get married every time you want to ride through Slough, though...
It might be worth it.
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I don't think visibility is the issue. They can see you, they just don't care.
A touring trick i've seen relatively frequently is to strap a long bit of garden cane from the pannier rack so that it sticks out a metre on the traffic side. Usually a high vis ribbon or something to mark the end. Negligible weight or aero penalty, it'll break if hit and forces space as the passing motorist doesn't want a scratch on their passenger door. You just have to remember it's there and not try to filter or squeeze through gaps.
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I've had similar results from a poster tube attached horizontally. Of course, you've got to beware of bollards.
On the other hand, there's a guy who sometimes comes on the local group's rides who has (along with various FRIKKIN LAZERS) some sort of shiny pom-pom on a telescopic fishing rod arrangement attached to his handlebars. Funnily enough, he seems to have far more trouble with motorists than anyone else, but that appears to be down to riding style (particularly road positioning and predictable behaviour - or lack thereof - at junctions) rather than any exotic bike accessories.
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Thank you all for your inputs and, if nothing else, it's a way of venting one's spleen.
There are several sad factors involved with todays driver that add up to potential accidents, and has been noted already by others – laziness and just not paying enough attention to operate the vehicle at ALL times; cars are treated by their owners as another physical extension of themselves and woe betide if you touch their car and, as an extension to this observation, I cannot understand why they will give more room to overtaking another car and not us. Maybe it's deemed cars will cause more damage on impact and we won't.
I know the other exit routes in Lewes Dan (and used those too) and I've been cycling for quite a number of years, and this is the very first time there's been any sort of incident in Lewes. We're always on more alert at 'commuter times' during the day, but this was midday-isa, and she was just a dozy cow: lazy, away with the fairies somewhere, staring at god-know's-what. Her speed was very low, which suspects me to speculate that perhaps she did see me, but just didn't have a fucking clue to hold back at that pinch-point traffic spot. She turned down St Andrew's Lane, but I couldn't be bothered to go and remonstrate with her, and frighten the kids in the car.
One time, after buying an axe at the Sunday market held at Brighton Marina, I continued my ride and, on a stretch that joins Newhaven to Lewes, where often (nowadays) you can get lazy overtaking, this time people gave me plenty of room. Maybe it was the wooden handle sticking out the top pf the backpack? Who knows?
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I don't think visibility is the issue. They can see you, they just don't care.
A touring trick i've seen relatively frequently is to strap a long bit of garden cane from the pannier rack so that it sticks out a metre on the traffic side. Usually a high vis ribbon or something to mark the end. Negligible weight or aero penalty, it'll break if hit and forces space as the passing motorist doesn't want a scratch on their passenger door. You just have to remember it's there and not try to filter or squeeze through gaps.
I recently did something similar with a length of very lightweight metal tube, zip-tied across the pannier rack in such a way as it could be slid from side to side, so it could be central, extending no wider than the panniers, or out to the right in "give me some space you f**ing moron" mode. What didnt work was hanging a 1/2 watt blinky off it, because it just spun around to face the ground. Now just rigged the blinky as far outboard on the pannier as it is possible to go.
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I've also tried something like this. A year or two ago on commute, I used a length of light weight metallic broom handle with reflective tape and a flashing light on the end. It was attached to the classic rack of my barley, protruded about 40cm, and could bend away if caught on something. Not sure if it helped. I have also thought of using a pool woggle/noodle (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Zoggs-Zoodle/dp/B003JMK2BI/ref=sr_1_4?s=sports&ie=UTF8&qid=1536752756&sr=1-4&keywords=Zoggs+Zoodle) lying around in the shed, cut in half length & width ways, for more reflective tape etc. It's flexible, but seems rigid enough to hold straight. Might have a go and see what it's like. :)
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I can't help thinking that adding lights/reflectives to the sticky-out object is a bit of an own goal. Turns it from "dodgy-looking load" to "bicycle safety device", which can therefore be ignored. If you do want to draw attention to it, I'd go with the bit-of-hivis-bib-tied-on-at-the-end approach, in the style of van drivers with long ladders / bits of wood.
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Good point. Something dangly and reflective on the end, perhaps 'disembodied & floating' near the bike at night...
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; cars are treated by their owners as another physical extension of themselves and woe betide if you touch their car and, as an extension to this observation, I cannot understand why they will give more room to overtaking another car and not us. Maybe it's deemed cars will cause more damage on impact and we won't.
I think the perspective from a car driver is that moving out into the path of an oncoming car will lead to instant death and a numpty on a bike is a lot more squishy if they have to take avoiding action of said oncoming car - how this translates into a refusal to wait until the large oncoming car has cleared before passing I don't really know.
Similar to my dangerous commuting road post last week I think the only answer is to hold your line, no matter what, maintain a steady even pace and let them deal with you and not the other way round.
I didn't count how many cars passed me this morning on my 15 mile commute but it would have been a lot and only one did something worthy of a score on the numpty-ometer. As a percentage over a year it would be very small but of course that isn't much comfort if it's the one that causes a major problem.
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Wear a blonde wig.
It helps if you have a truly great arse too. Like mine :smug:
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...
One time, after buying an axe at the Sunday market held at Brighton Marina, I continued my ride and, on a stretch that joins Newhaven to Lewes, where often (nowadays) you can get lazy overtaking, this time people gave me plenty of room. Maybe it was the wooden handle sticking out the top pf the backpack? Who knows?
In which case, what about one of these (https://www.spreadshirt.co.uk/ax+drawstring+bag-D5b28c88c5fd3e421f25e9fd3?sellable=0XJ3Bq7ZgmTQz5D9NE1Z-2oHAB)?
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Wear a blonde wig.
It helps if you have a truly great arse too. Like mine :smug:
A huge arse wearing a blond wig? You'll be mistaken for Boris.
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^ POTD.
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I tried the swimming foam aid, fits really easily to the barley rack and would probably work pretty well as a 1m 'load to keep clear of', but well, how can I put this, just no... ;D
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When I had the burley bee kid trailer information loads of room. Only once did someone see it and edge as close as they could and I mean sitting up in seat so could see closer.
When I asked what he was doing he replied it's ok I've seen it.
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I know the other exit routes in Lewes Dan (and used those too) and I've been cycling for quite a number of years, and this is the very first time there's been any sort of incident in Lewes. We're always on more alert at 'commuter times' during the day, but this was midday-isa, and she was just a dozy cow: lazy, away with the fairies somewhere, staring at god-know's-what. Her speed was very low, which suspects me to speculate that perhaps she did see me, but just didn't have a fucking clue to hold back at that pinch-point traffic spot. She turned down St Andrew's Lane, but I couldn't be bothered to go and remonstrate with her, and frighten the kids in the car.
Sorry if my reply came off as “I wouldn’t ride up there”. I know you know the area, I was more intending to add to your picture of the place. It’s a shit thing to happen.
Drivers in general should be more aware of the space they’re moving into than they are.
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No worries Dan. My 'sensitivity levels' are a little heightened right now, given that these incidences seem to be on the increase (punishment passes, mis-judged passes, peer-pressure passes because of traffic building behind the driver – "I must get pass").
I consider myself a skilled rider and of a certain age that I won't take shit from drivers intimidating me, but . . . all of which we discuss, complaining about piss-poor driving, intimidation, road-rage – any which could lead to a cyclist being injured or worse (and I don't really wish this thread to veer off on another direction) but . . . if, we had much more protection from the law, our streets (and here we should include pedestrians too) would be much more pleasant and safer. There was a piece on R4 this morning, announcing that the penalty for being found guilty of assaulting a member of the emergency services, is being raised from 6 months in prison to 1 year (comes in force in November). That's fine and don't have any issues with any of that, but isn't it time the judicial system, along with Government, looked at bolstering our rights to ride safely on roads.
I'm going off on one again!!! ::-)
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I found it a pleasant experiance pottering about the lanes of the Leicestershire, Staffordshire, Derbyshire boarders last week where almost every pass was really courteous.
It may have had something to do with my walking stick strapped across the top of my saddle bag and even when collapsed to its shortest length sticking out ~30cm beyond my right hip :demon:
It has a nice large rubber foot on the end so unlikely to scratch anything and worse still as an aluminium tube is unlikely to break on impact but it's presence seems to engender a positive reaction.
Plus it made my excuses to the many cyclist who went past me without having to explain I hadn't been on the bike for almost 6 months.
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From London experience, people get in to a car and are oblivious as the metal box they are in take them away from being connected to surrounding people.
Didn't someone say a spade or a pickaxe across the rack helped people give them the wider berth.
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Theory of BIG, innit?
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my usual technique on the narrow lanes or pinch points is to look back over my right shoulder (when i hear the car coming), wobble towards the middle of the road and back and start pedalling out of saddle rocking the bike side to side pretending i'm pushing very hard. this is very effective, as it gives a message to the driver that i can be unpredictable, but am also trying hard not to hold them up - they usually wait when it's safe to pass (with an odd exception). i also wave them to overtake if they are too hesitant and the road is clear ahead.
Reminds me of my last ascent of White Down (a while back, sadly)... a long queue of traffic behind as I cranked up the hill, a long queue of traffic ahead, all pulled over waiting for me to pass. I felt very proud of all concerned.
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I ride to the gym on my old MTB wearing scruffy shorts, trainers and a baseball cap worn back to front. I don't get close passes. If I'm out on a road bike, wearing cycling gear and [rare these days] a helmet, I'm often passed close enough to lose skin off my elbows.
We have an old guy around here that works as a gardener. He rides a scruffy Hybrid bike with a huge Flymo balanced on one shoulder and a fork and spade across the handlebars. He rides the A56 which is one of the busiest roads in the UK. Across the M60 motorway roundabout, in three lanes of mad traffic and I don't know how he survives. But he does. Nobody goes near him and he never gets any abuse.
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Cycling in Scandinavia recently there seemed to be two reactions to them finding a cyclist in the middle of nowhere.
"holy crap that's a cyclist!?! I better give them all the space possible" They then over took in the other lane giving me loads of space.
Or the other reaction
"There's no way there's a cyclist crazy enough to be here, I must be imagining it, I'll drive as if they aren't there". The closest pass in 1700km of Scandi was from a Norwegian Ambulance. It wasn't on blues, it passed me under 300mm away.
There is no solution that makes drivers give you space, no amount of hi vi works, no extra lighting. Until the police can start issuing driving bans for anyone passing within 1.5m of a cyclist, there's nothing that will work, and even then it's only going to reduce the number of close passes, it won't eliminate them.
Sorry.
J
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Yesterday's Henley Hilly Hundred was unusual for the number of drivers, on single-track roads, who just kept going towards me, without changing speed at all, and left me to take any necessary evasive action. Plenty of others slowed down and picked a spot for us to pass, of course, or let me do so - and various others waited patiently behind for a good passing place.
But three or four drivers just forcing their way through, in one event, has not happened before. I sometimes wonder whether driving standards vary by area.
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I find that I tend to fumble my bidon when such folk are barrelling towards me, which can mean the bidon bounces off their windscreen. Of course, staying upright and alive often takes priority over drinking some water.
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Yesterday's Henley Hilly Hundred was unusual for the number of drivers, on single-track roads, who just kept going towards me, without changing speed at all, and left me to take any necessary evasive action. Plenty of others slowed down and picked a spot for us to pass, of course, or let me do so - and various others waited patiently behind for a good passing place.
But three or four drivers just forcing their way through, in one event, has not happened before. I sometimes wonder whether driving standards vary by area.
I'm sure they do. And by time of day. It's not just that some places and times are better or worse, but that certain things are the norm or not according to some sort of local "traffic culture".