Author Topic: Lighting etiquette for group riding  (Read 18441 times)

Lighting etiquette for group riding
« on: 29 May, 2013, 12:28:27 pm »
Hi folks:
This  is not just about  good manners more a  few tips  on how  to set up your  lights for comfortable group riding.
 'brighter is not  better' when in a group,

1. Don't have a full on flashing laser on the back at  eye  level - well actually do have one for if you are  on your own, but fit it  somewhere like the seat post where you can switch it  off.  Have a constant lamp lower down e.g. on your rack If you go down to the  seat-stays you can up the brightness without dazzling other  riders.

2. Front lights: If you are  being  followed by  someone with  brighter  lights than yours  mounted high up you get a dancing  shadow  which is  good for  hiding potholes. Do you really want the  person just in front of your wheel to be half blinded?  Again, low down is  best. German standard headlamps, with a cut-off beam are good. You will also be  doing  yourself a  favour with this  type of  set up if you find  yourself in wet or foggy conditions as  the beam does  not  reflect back on you. As most  people will carry two lights have  a think about how to  set up a full and dipped beam arrangement for when you are on the front of or sitting in the group.

If  you take  this advice you will be  welcomed  into the groups that make night  riding on an event  like this  so much  fun  :thumbsup:

LEE

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #1 on: 29 May, 2013, 12:49:20 pm »
It doesn't matter how low you mount your rear light, if it's pointing up then it's a pain for the riders behind.

In my opinion, for maximum safety effect, a rear light should be set so it shines horizontally and never up.

This will give you maximum visibility 100-200 yards back down the road, to car drivers, and minimum visbility 10 yards back down the road , to cyclists.

Put your bike on level ground, with a wall behind you.  Walk your bike as far from the wall as possible (so you can still see the beam from the light shining on the wall) and check that the beam is roughly still at waist to head height, but no higher. (There's bound to be some spillage)

Most car drivers' eyes are lower than you think, waist to chest height normally.
It's car drivers' eyes you should be aiming at.  Crouch down and look back towards your bike from 50 yards.
If you aim at car drivers' eyes then you won't be aiming at cyclists' eyes (apologies to 'bent riders).

I've never seen the point of a rear light pointing up or down.  Rear LEDs are so focussed that it negates the point of having them.
Set correctly however, they are extremely bright, even at long distances.

...all IN MY OPINION of course.

marcusjb

  • Full of bon courage.
Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #2 on: 29 May, 2013, 12:55:14 pm »
And don't hang rear lights on the little light loop on a Carradice - all it will do is bounce up and down like a Buckeroo and serve little purpose in be visible to drivers and will dazzle other riders in the group on a frequent basis.

I am finding Fibre Flares the most 'friendly' light for group riding (based on having been behind people with them, I now use one attached to my Bagman).  Soft light, but very visible.
Right! What's next?

Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!

rogerzilla

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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #3 on: 29 May, 2013, 12:58:43 pm »
The main thing for group riding is to switch LEDs to "steady" unless you're in a streetlit area, when flashing is more tolerable.  The FibreFlare is unusually offensive in flashing mode, but has been described (by mattc) as quite comforting, like a one-bar electric fire, on steady.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

mattc

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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #4 on: 29 May, 2013, 01:03:52 pm »
Good post sleepy  :thumbsup:

All I would add is perhaps:
Flashing lights - front OR back - just don't bother. They annoy almost everyone, for negligible benefit.
(My opinion - and that of dozens of riders I have talked to - and of the PBP organisers, who banned the things years ago! )


Also: at night, consider riding 2-a-breast as much as possible. You'll chat more, keeping eachother awake, and will BENEFIT from eachother's front lights, none of this brightest light casting shadows problem.

EDIT: oh, and ...
Don't get a bright head/helmet torch; or if you do, leave it mostly off in a group. If you can't see why, lend yours to a friend and try having a conversation with them ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #5 on: 29 May, 2013, 01:21:10 pm »
Good post sleepy  :thumbsup:

+1

Thanks all for the good advice. 

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #6 on: 29 May, 2013, 01:24:09 pm »
So other than the FibreFlare, what is a decent rear light for night riding? I generally use Smart lights and similar (e.g. the Planet X clones), which are a bit unpleasant to be stuck behind unless they're angled downwards.

mattc

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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #7 on: 29 May, 2013, 01:27:58 pm »
I'd say 2-3* average lights (from a good brand for reliabilty), instead of any single uber-bright jobbie. And anything with a large reflector area. Smart old 'kidneys' are my favourite (and the tuppence Wilko clones!)


*Also gives redundancy benefits.


I've got one of these if anyone has a couple of quid spare!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #8 on: 29 May, 2013, 01:57:45 pm »
I would recommend the Smart R1 as a rear light, it actually has a group rider mode that gives a steady light on half power. It also comes with a bracket that will fit most seat stays as well as the seat post one. It does a DETH laser and psychedelic mode too for when you're one your own.

I currently have one on each seat stay, but Simon has pointed out to me a potential flaw with this in that cars can think you're another car a long way ahead in the distance. I might move mine to different heights to prevent this.

jogler

  • mojo operandi
Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #9 on: 29 May, 2013, 02:23:42 pm »
I would recommend the Smart R1 as a rear light, it actually has a group rider mode that gives a steady light on half power.

+1

I have one attached to the light loop on a Topeak Aero Wedge on the Longsatff,same for the Trek & a spare Wedge/R1 combo for another bike(usually g.d.'s Trek)

mcshroom

  • Mushroom
Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #10 on: 29 May, 2013, 03:21:15 pm »
I have a Cateye TL-LD500 on the rear of my bike. It's rack mountable (by screwing it on) so it's unlikely to get ejected and can be left on the bike when I leave it. Surprisingly good little light actually.

Another tip would be to check that any luggage you are using on your bike does not hide the rear light. I discovered this with a tent over a different rack mounted rear light and had to rely on a mudguard-mounted light only (Spanninga Pixeo).

I suppose that leads to a third tip, a mudguard mounted light is easy to get lined up straight, again can stay on the bike full time, and is unlikely to be obscured by luggage.
Climbs like a sprinter, sprints like a climber!

jogler

  • mojo operandi
Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #11 on: 29 May, 2013, 03:34:36 pm »
I also have one of these

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/cateye-tl-ld1100-led-rear-light/

attached to the ligh-mount of the rear pannier.

Not only is it very bright in static mode it has a scrolling feature which IMO is kinder than flashing to the retina of those riding behind me.

eck

  • Gonna ride my bike until I get home...
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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #12 on: 29 May, 2013, 03:47:12 pm »
I am finding Fibre Flares the most 'friendly' light for group riding (based on having been behind people with them, I now use one attached to my Bagman).  Soft light, but very visible.
+1 for Fibre Flares. Some of us rode the last stage of the Berwick & Beattock 400 with a rider (ramcityrocker otp?) who had one: it was a nice light to ride behind, but very visible. I might just get one.  :)
It's a bit weird, but actually quite wonderful.

wilkyboy

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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #13 on: 29 May, 2013, 03:47:41 pm »
Sorry if this is a bit preachy, but I have ridden quite a few night rides these last few months and the standard of lighting adopted by fellow audaxers is somewhat mixed with some being appalling.  I find this surprising, because as soon as the sun goes down then most audaxers put on all sorts of reflective gear, so it's clear they understand the issues, it's just clear that some don't understand how to maximise (or don't care about doing so) their lights to minimise the risks from other road users (including cyclists).

Front lights have their own problems, the mains one being getting a light that's bright enough to light the moon and yet doesn't dazzle oncoming traffic: just get a decent B&M dyno lamp, they have a cut-off at about 4º above the horizon, just like a car's dipped headlight (although without the "kick"), and are more than bright enough to ride solo in mid-Wales in absolute darkness at 50kph (they haven't discovered street lighting there yet*).  Problem solved.

The aims of rear lights should be:
  • Be seen by cars
  • Don't blind other cyclists
  • Be at least a bit legal
The big problems with rear lights appear to be:
  • Crap lights
  • Lights in a crap position
  • Good lights on crap settings
So start with a good light: the best rear lights have a large surface area and aren't very bright: these give other road users the greatest chance to see you and to judge distance to you accurately. Cateye do some pretty decent rear lights like the Reflex, as do Busch & Müller: particularly the ones that include a reflector, which increases the surface area of the bit of red you're showing to road users behind and may even be road-legal**.  Smart R1s are good lights as well, but you must use a reflector as well (they aren't road-legal on their own).  Preferably have two lights for redundancy as well as emphasising you're a bike. Fibre Flares are rubbish as a rear light, because you don't look like a bike with them and as a car driver they are difficult to gauge distance to in the dark because the light is too soft; they're also not legal, so you still need a proper rear light; they are friendly to other cyclists, though.  Those pathetic little single-LED blinky lights embedded in a rubber assembly are rubbish verging on "just run me over, I deserve it"; most single-LED lamps are about as bad, even when set up correctly.

Set the lights up one above the other: as simonp pointed out, side-by-side and you look like a car in the distance, so drivers behind may overestimate your speed and come up behind rather sharpish; one-above-the-other and you look like a bike.  The biggest mistake I have suffered from (on others' bikes) is that the lights are attached to the seat stays using compact brackets, which prevents the lights being pointed down far enough: the rear lights MUST point straight backwards, NOT upwards or downwards.  If the bracket prevents you achieving a horizontal light beam then it's either the wrong light or the wrong bracket (for that part of the bike).  If you have  Smart R1s then you can get brackets designed for seat stays, like these on eBay.  If you have the 5-led Night Flares then these should NOT be mounted on the seat stays, because there isn't a bracket available to make them properly vertical in order to shine their light straight backwards (and they're not legal on their own either), although mounted to a rack they are very effective.

The point about rear lights is for other road users to see you, recognise what you are, and to cooperate on the road with you appropriately.  Drivers are just like you and me and if flashing lights are annoying to cyclists, they are annoying to drivers too.  The biggest problem with flashing lights is that when the light goes out, drivers behind can't see where you are; this is made even worse with flashing Smart R1s: the LED is soooo very bright that when the lamp is in the "on" state, it's blinding, and when it's in the "off" state then you can't see anything anyway, so really the worst of both worlds.  Just set all your rear lights to steady and keep the laser-beam setting for high-risk situations, e.g. riding along dual carriageways, fog, heavy rain.  If you have a legal reflector (you do have one, don't you?), car headlamps will light this up as well, adding to the overall effect of "cyclist".  And nothing else quite screams "cyclist" in the dark as pedal reflectors, but that's a whole other topic ...

I have a dyno-driven B&M Toplight Braketec just above the rear wheel (this is a German-legal light and reflector**); and because it's coupled to a B&M Luxos U on the front, which has an on-off switch on the handlebar, I can switch this rear light on while moving; the brake-light effect isn't very convincing, though.  About 18" above that light I have a Smart R1, which I don't usually use unless I am on my own, or the conditions require a "set-to-stun" light (fast and busy roads, poor visibility). And just above that I have an old Cateye 5-LED LD500 set to steady (sometimes flashing in the day, but it's not very bright, just gets a bit of extra daylight attention).  The overall effect is of two or three lights one above the other, none of them over-bright, none flashing, two are also reflectors, and enough light going backwards to alert other road users that I am there, that I am a cyclist, and for them to judge distance to me accurately in order to pass safely***.

The law is also quite clear: in the hours of darkness, you MUST have a red reflector on the rear and it must be visible only from the rear; you MUST have a suitable red light on the rear that must point backwards and be visible only from the rear. They can be one and the same unit.  You don't need either during daytime.

As for group etiquette: if you set your lights up properly for road use on your own, the chances are you won't be causing any problems to other cyclists.  If other cyclists are complaining then you really should look at your set-up, because firstly it's annoying other road users but more importantly it may be ineffective and even putting you in danger of getting knocked off.  (When I rode London-Cambridge last year with my Smart R1 blinking away, I heard other cyclists saying "let's get in front of this bozo, his light's blinding me", and that was in the daytime! I switched it off after they'd passed and that was when I started thinking about effective lighting.)

As a footnote, I had an interesting conversation a few months ago in my LBS where I challenged them to sell me road-legal lights for use in the UK: they openly admitted that they couldn't.  They could sell me lights that are legal reflectors (Cateyes), but not legal lights.  All the lights that blinked also had a steady mode and so are required to satisfy British Standards.  And they didn't stock German dyno lights off the shelf.  Apparently nobody would buy the legal lights, because the standards are a bit out of date and so the lights are rubbish, they always buy the blinky LED ones instead.  No bike shop I have been into since has stocked both a legal front and a legal rear light.  Go figure.

And one more thing: don't forget to check your side-on lights/reflector profile, because cars pulling out of junctions (who are neither in front of or behind you) need to be able to see you as well.

* Not strictly true.
** Because of EU cross-border trading law, a lamp or reflector designed and built to an alternative European spec of an equivalent safety standard to British Standards is also legal for use in the UK.  Only one reflector and light on the bike must be legal in the dark, the rest can be anything, so long as they don't dazzle or otherwise adversely affect other road users.  Don't quote me on this, I read it somewhere.
*** Nothing's foolproof, though.
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #14 on: 29 May, 2013, 03:53:34 pm »
As a footnote, I had an interesting conversation a few months ago in my LBS where I challenged them to sell me road-legal lights for use in the UK: they openly admitted that they couldn't.  They could sell me lights that are legal reflects (Cateyes), but not legal lights.  All the lights that blinked also had a steady mode and so are required to satisfy British Standards. And they didn't stock German dyno lights off the shelf.  No bike shop I have been into since has stocked both a legal front and a legal rear light.  Go figure.


Maybe because the law is out of date and even rear LED lights from poundland are adequate?  This is said as someone who drives - as long as the batteries are fresh then the cheapest of leds show up.

I have to challenge your assertion that the rear lights must point directly backwards. Some rear lights (Dinotte?) are designed to be pointed slightly down. Some of the Smart lights have a lens that spreads the light so that it shows up from a range of viewing angles.
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Dibdib

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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #15 on: 29 May, 2013, 03:54:52 pm »
Currently a fan of my rear set-up - a Cateye LD600 in ripple (or "nightrider"  ;D) mode which saves battery power while being less obnoxious than a flasher, and a steady FibreFlare on the offside seatstay for that warming glow.

Still not convinced about my front setup though, two Cateye  4xAA lamps mounted one on each fork blade's rack mount. I think I'm going to have to rethink that one somehow.

LEE

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #16 on: 29 May, 2013, 04:02:28 pm »
As much as I love my 2 x Cateye LD610 setup I feel MUCH safer when I'm wearing a lot of Scotchlite retro-reflective.

As Wilkyboy suggests, pedal reflectors scream "cyclist" but so do Scotchlite ankle bands.  In fact it's sometimes surprising, until you see a flash photograph, just how much Scotchlite you have on you (Schwalbe Marathon tyres anybody?).

I keep my PBP Hi-Viz rolled up on my saddlebag, Scotchlite facing outwards. 
I know, as a motorist, just how well Scotchlite "lights up" in my headlights, sometimes before, and brighter than, any rear light.

Again, as a motorist, if I had to recommend anything, in addition to a light, it would be Scotchlite ankle bands.  They really are very noticeable.

Note. If you have refelectives on helmet and body as well as ankles, it gives an approaching motorist a good sense of scale/distance/speed, something that a single light source just doesn't (and why cars pull out on motorcycles a lot at night).

Quote
Currently a fan of my rear set-up - a Cateye LD600 in ripple (or "nightrider"  ) mode

Since my Ringtone is "Nightrider theme" I can achieve the full effect by holding phone to my LD610 on Nightrider strobe mode.

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #17 on: 29 May, 2013, 04:03:28 pm »
I've always thought ours is OK- we have a wide smart thingy on feeble, a cheap smart blinky on feeble and a fibre flare.

I think the necessity for being seen from miles away by cars is overrated. I don't need a car to see my bike from Ohio, only from 100m. And to be honest, they probably see that ray of white light heading up the road before they see anything red behind. I'm happy they think I'm walking, till they get closer.

How do we look from behind, wheelsuckers?

(Please only comment on the lighting. How my arse blocks out the sun is a subject for a different thread.)

wilkyboy

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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #18 on: 29 May, 2013, 04:04:02 pm »
As a footnote, I had an interesting conversation a few months ago in my LBS where I challenged them to sell me road-legal lights for use in the UK: they openly admitted that they couldn't.  They could sell me lights that are legal reflects (Cateyes), but not legal lights.  All the lights that blinked also had a steady mode and so are required to satisfy British Standards. And they didn't stock German dyno lights off the shelf.  No bike shop I have been into since has stocked both a legal front and a legal rear light.  Go figure.


Maybe because the law is out of date and even rear LED lights from poundland are adequate?  This is said as someone who drives - as long as the batteries are fresh then the cheapest of leds show up.

I have to challenge your assertion that the rear lights must point directly backwards. Some rear lights (Dinotte?) are designed to be pointed slightly down. Some of the Smart lights have a lens that spreads the light so that it shows up from a range of viewing angles.

For lights to be legal in the UK, they must be stamped BS6102/3, or must comply to some equivalent European-country's national standard (e.g. Germany).  You'll often find lights stamped BS6102/2, but that's just for reflectors, so not a legal light.  Blinky lights are legal so long as they flash between 1 and 4 times a second and emit at least 4 candela, but if they have a steady state setting as well then they must comply with BS6102/3 in order to be legal (even if used as a blinky light). This is all pedantry [edit: on my part], but at some point on the scale of safety/cooperation/compliance it becomes relevant.

A few degrees up or down isn't really the point: yes there are lights designed to point slightly differently.  My experience is that the light will have a horizontal or vertical line, often where the casing splits open, on it to facilitate correct alignment, and at this position the beam may extend slightly down.  It's an uninteresting exception, though, as the vast majority of lights are most effective when mounted exactly vertically so that the light is emitted straight backwards.  The bigger problem is lights attached to seat stays, as they don't point down at all, but straight up into other cyclists' faces, which can be uncomfortable ... it is one way of forcing others to take the front wheel, though ...
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

wilkyboy

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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #19 on: 29 May, 2013, 04:08:24 pm »
I've always thought ours is OK- we have a wide smart thingy on feeble, a cheap smart blinky on feeble and a fibre flare.

I think the necessity for being seen from miles away by cars is overrated. I don't need a car to see my bike from Ohio, only from 100m. And to be honest, they probably see that ray of white light heading up the road before they see anything red behind. I'm happy they think I'm walking, till they get closer.

How do we look from behind, wheelsuckers?

(Please only comment on the lighting. How my arse blocks out the sun is a subject for a different thread.)

I've sucked your wheel in the daytime, your lights seemed fine when off, although ISTR you've got something mounted on the seat stay that could do with being straightened?  It's been a while, though (G&YF and I was on the wheel of the sucker on the wheel of the sucker on your wheel, so I didn't get a good view of either your lights or anything else).

And Ohio's closer than you think*

* That's probably not true, is it.
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #20 on: 29 May, 2013, 04:09:55 pm »
you've got something mounted on the seat stay that could do with being straightened?
Fibreflare on the offside mudguard rack.

LEE

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #21 on: 29 May, 2013, 04:10:56 pm »
I have to challenge your assertion that the rear lights must point directly backwards. Some rear lights (Dinotte?) are designed to be pointed slightly down. Some of the Smart lights have a lens that spreads the light so that it shows up from a range of viewing angles.

I guess we're saying that lights should be mounted optimally rather than just bolted on to any available surface.

My Cateye LD610s are VERY bright along a fairly narrow axis.  They are quite dim in any other axis.  That makes them superb, when fixed low, and aligned horizontally, for cyclists close behind and motorists a long way off (100-200yards).

Other makes will be different but all will have an optimal setup, because LEDs will typically sit behind a lens to achieve their brightness.

PS.  I have a cheap Cateye seat-stay botch.  Photos to follow.

Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #22 on: 29 May, 2013, 04:14:52 pm »
For lights to be legal in the UK...

It's made a bit easier because, for you to be legal in the UK, only one of your lights (both front and rear) needs to be legal. Any additional lights on top of this do not have to comply with any particular standards apart from the obvious[1].

1. They shouldn't dazzle users behind. Red lights must not point forwards, white lights must not point backwards, etc.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

wilkyboy

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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #23 on: 29 May, 2013, 04:17:20 pm »
... pedal reflectors scream "cyclist" but so do Scotchlite ankle bands ...

+1

I have little strips of orange reflective tape stuck to the front/back faces of my SPD pedals, and my shoes have reflective panels built into the heels (little white dots, but still very effective).
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

wilkyboy

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Re: Lighting etiquette for group riding
« Reply #24 on: 29 May, 2013, 04:18:20 pm »
you've got something mounted on the seat stay that could do with being straightened?
Fibreflare on the offside mudguard rack.

Ah, yes, FibreFlares as a secondary lamp make a lot of sense in bulking out the rear profile of your bike in the dark.
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...