Organic vs standard milk...

[nicknack]

This is the blurp that Able & Cole has on their website :

Much mass produced milk is homogenised, meaning the cream is taken out of the milk, broken down into little globules of fat and put back in so it's all a uniform consistency, though it becomes harder to digest.

Why is homogenised milk harder to digest?

[L CC]

Homeopathy. Does the placebo effect work on cows too? 
Homogenised milk is no harder to digest, that's tosh. Goats' milk is naturally homogenised ffs.

Gandalf: Yes organic cows have their calves taken away at "a few days" and yes the male calves suffer "the same fate"- they're reared for beef.
24hr is the usual time for taking the calves from their mothers. I believe they stay longer on organic farms, but not weeks. A milking machine does a more thorough job of encouraging productivity than a feeble suckling calf.

They're animals in a production system. Their keepers have a responsibility to care for them and meet their welfare needs, but they're not people, nor are they pets, nor are they wild animals, all of which would require different treatment.

[Kathy]

Homeopathy. Does the placebo effect work on cows too? 

Indeed. On reading that, and the bit about "treating the cows with herbal infusions", I just went 

[Ham]

Homeopathy. Does the placebo effect work on cows too? 

I think the correct answer for that is, as well as it does on people. http://www.bahvs.com/

That leaves everyone to make up their own mind ;-)

[mrcharly-YHT]

Homeopathy. Does the placebo effect work on cows too? 

Indeed. On reading that, and the bit about "treating the cows with herbal infusions", I just went 

Nothing wrong with herbal infusions - there are plenty of plants that could be used to prepare, say, an antiseptic wash. Garlic would do quite well.

Homeopathy on cows is daft, tho'.

[Bledlow]

Homeopathy on cows is daft, tho'.

FTFY

[Kathy]

Homeopathy. Does the placebo effect work on cows too? 

I think the correct answer for that is, as well as it does on people. British Assoc. of Homeopathic Veterinary Surgeons

<reads two articles from that site>

Right. The first article I read concerned using acorn extract  to treat dogs and horses who were suffering from Cushings' disease. My issues with this trial:

1) Cushings disease can be nasty and causes a great deal of suffering. Conventional treatments exist. Why were these animals not given conventional treatment?

2) All the participants were "selected" for the trial. Why? Had they not responded to standard treatment? Were they healthy enough that they might not actually need conventional treatment (and therefore would have got better on their own)? Did the person making the referrals unconsciously (or even consciously) select animals who they thought might be more responsive to homeopathy? Were the owners of these animals more in favour of homeopathic treatment and therefore have been more suggestible to viewing improvements?

3) The trial had no controls - the results were not compared to a similar group of sufferers who were (a) not treated, (b) treated with the conventional methods, and (c) treated with a placebo. This means we can't even begin to criticise the lack of double-blinding, since the experiment was so poorly designed!

4) The concept of reverting to the norm isn't discussed properly - the writer notes that most of the cases showed improvement, but that some then had spontaneous relapses which were treated successfuly, but completely fails to miss the point that the animals may have spontaneously recovered in the first place, regardless of treatment! The use of controls would have covered this.

5) Not all the animals were clinically proven to have been suffering from Cushing's in the first place - a third of the dogs only had "classic symptoms" but no blood tests had been run. "Classic symptoms" can be the same as severe eczema, so some of these dogs could have been suffering an allergic reaction which recovered completely independantly to the homeopathy.

6) There are more, but I'm bored of this paper now.

The second study concerned the treatment of dogs suffering dermatitis. This one only has the summary, but even that tells us what a poor study it is - twenty dogs were treated homeopathically. The owners of fifteen dogs saw no improvement, and the owners of five dogs said theythought that the homeopathic treatment had caused improvements. These five dogs then went through to a "double blind" trial where they were treated either with a placebo or a homeopathic remedy. One dog died, one got better before trials started, and the results of the remaining three showed that the owners were able to distinguish between the homeopathy and placebo.   Let's just say:

1) Selection methods for phase two of the trial, and

2) Sample size.

That leaves everyone to make up their own mind ;-)

Yup, I've made mine up!

[Kathy]

Nothing wrong with herbal infusions - there are plenty of plants that could be used to prepare, say, an antiseptic wash. Garlic would do quite well.

Nowt wrong with some herbal infusions. It's just the concept that they are somehow "better" than conventional treatment that bugs me. I used to work with some homeopaths  who believed in "whole plant" benefits - if an active ingredient is avalable in a plant, it's better to eat the whole plant rather than the extracted and purified active ingredient, because Mother Nature has designed the whole plant for us, and we need all the different bits of goodness available in it, not just the active ingredient.

I tried pointing out that Mother Nature (I thought "evolution" was too long a word) really doesn't like most of her plants being eaten, which is why so many of them contain toxins, and aspirin causes far fewer stomach upsets than salicylic acid, but got a blank look.

[nicknack]

Isn't salicylic acid derived from willow? Does that mean I'd have to eat a whole tree? I'd find that difficult.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Bark lining only.

Biggest problem with using 'herbal infusions' is gauging the strength.

[Feline]

There is a fundamental difference between herbal medicine and homeopathy.

Some herbal treatments contain powerful chemicals that have been proven to do x,y or z in the body, often at fairly strong concentrations. Some of these are safe and some of them are not, but the compounding of the products is unregulated so you need to choose your source very carefully. (e.g. there have been cases of humans using chinese herbal medicines to treat eczema subsequently developing liver failure as a result of the hepatotoxic ingredients).

Conversely homeopathic treatments are based on taking a substance (sometimes this will be a toxic one like arsenic!) and then diluting it down hundreds of times so that there is pretty much nothing left in the water.

Speaking as someone medically trained I would actually rather my clients dabbled in homeopathy than herbal medicine since drinking water with 1 or 2 molecules of something random in it is unlikely to do them actual harm, whereas some herbal preparations can be harmful.

[woollypigs]

Well feeding cows Guinness makes the stakes taste better, well that is what the Japanese say.

[Ham]

The perceived difference between Herbal treatment and Drug treatment has always amused me.

I've gone through all phases of view on Homeopathy. My family became homeopaths after by brother contracted pneumonia as a very young baby in the 50's and there was nothing conventional medicine could do for him at the time, he recovered under homeopathic care. The brand of homeopathy that we got involved with was the typical model in the UK, where the doctor was a fully trained allopathic doctor before training as a homeopath. As far as I am aware, the same held true for vets, they had to be fully qualified before adding homeopathic training.

I don't pretend to know how it changed, but all that appears to have changed and there are now numbers of alternative therapists who have little or no medical training. I think that is a deplorable situation, and potentially dangerous.

As to whether it works, or I believe in it? I dunno. I have what a healthy scepticism about alternative therapies and allopathy. I will go to some lengths before taking any drug (for example my doctor wanted me to start taking smarties statins, which I just did NOT need). As a result I might experiment with any alternative therapy including homeopathy if it seemed potentially useful at the time. I would not let my lack of understanding (or scepticism) of the mechanics or biology of the cure stand between me and getting better. But I'd go to a doctor I respected first and weigh up the risk of what I was doing/taking being total bollocks.

[Gandalf]

Homeopathy. Does the placebo effect work on cows too? 
Homogenised milk is no harder to digest, that's tosh. Goats' milk is naturally homogenised ffs.

Gandalf: Yes organic cows have their calves taken away at "a few days" and yes the male calves suffer "the same fate"- they're reared for beef.
24hr is the usual time for taking the calves from their mothers. I believe they stay longer on organic farms, but not weeks. A milking machine does a more thorough job of encouraging productivity than a feeble suckling calf.

They're animals in a production system. Their keepers have a responsibility to care for them and meet their welfare needs, but they're not people, nor are they pets, nor are they wild animals, all of which would require different treatment.

That's told me then.

[Julian]

How are organic cows treated differently from non organic ones? Are the calves still taken away from their mothers after a few days?  Do Male calves suffer the same fate?  Just curious.

Yes, they are and yes they do.

The difference isn't in what happens to the calves but in the treatment of the cows - organic milk has to meet certain welfare requirements to get the organic certification.

And no, of course it's not anywhere near as cruelty-free as soy milk.  But it's a more ethical alternative to normal cow milk.  Not totally ethical, just more ethical. 

[Rhys W]

Have any organic milk drinkers noticed it goes off quicker than non-organic milk?

My sister told me this a couple of years ago but I didn't believe her - why would it? I tried some organic milk from Tesco, and sure enough, it went off before I could finish the carton (normally lasts 3 days in my house).

[woollypigs]

Yup just about last a week if in opened about three if open.

[border-rider]

Have any organic milk drinkers noticed it goes off quicker than non-organic milk?

We've found that it varies

We get it from the milkman, and at the last house it went off very rapidly  - sometimes it was off when we opened it.  I put that down to smaller sales volumes=lots of hanging about.

Here the milk comes direct from the dairy, and it's in plastic bottles. Lasts for ages.

[hellymedic]

I suspect differences in shelf/fridge life of millk are related to pasteurisation temperature (some are done very hot) and age of product. I see no reason why organic milk should intrinsically last shorter but if it's not heated as much then hangs about...

[rafletcher]

Have any organic milk drinkers noticed it goes off quicker than non-organic milk?

My sister told me this a couple of years ago but I didn't believe her - why would it? I tried some organic milk from Tesco, and sure enough, it went off before I could finish the carton (normally lasts 3 days in my house).

No.

[Cudzoziemiec]

So all Able and Cole milk comes from one farm in Wiltshire, which presumably supplies customers across the entire UK? Or is Able and Cole so trendy it's only available in places where the fixed:geared ration is 1:1?  If it takes 2 hours to milk the whole herd, how many cows do they have? Mrs C's cousin said it takes about 1 hour to milk their 16 cows, but I don't know if that's dependent on the number of cows or the equipment used.

[Julian]

If it takes fifteen men three hours to milk a herd of organic homeopathic cows, how many cows are there in the field?

No idea, Cudzo.  I'm sure they'd tell you if you asked, though.

[Ham]

If it takes fifteen men three hours to milk a herd of organic homeopathic cows, how many cows are there in the field?

No idea, Cudzo.  I'm sure they'd tell you if you asked, though.

I think you may need more, but it's a moot point

[L CC]

If it takes fifteen men three hours to milk a herd of organic homeopathic cows, how many cows are there in the field?

No idea, Cudzo.  I'm sure they'd tell you if you asked, though.

Don't be daft, even cows with herbal infusions can't talk!