Rose bikes stops selling to the UK

[Davef]

It could be the bag of bits you import is classed as a finished bicycle

Incomplete or unfinished vehicles
When a motor vehicle or bicycle is imported incomplete or unfinished, it can be classified as complete or finished if it has the essential character. This could be a:

vehicle not yet fitted with wheels, tyres or the battery
vehicle not equipped with its engine or with its interior fittings
bicycle without its saddle and tyres
bicycle consisting of the frame, the fork and at least 2 of the following components:
set of wheels
crank-gear
steering unit - including handlebar and handlebar stems
brake system

[Paul H]

  I thought there was an added value component, so if you bought £1000 worth of components from outside the EU, assembled them and put a Made In the UK sticker on it and exported it for £1020, there would be an issue.

My understanding is that it makes no difference whether you've imported the parts or materials from the EU or anywhere else, if you haven't done sufficient processing then tariffs will be due.

[Davef]

My understanding is that it makes no difference whether you've imported from the EU or anywhere else, if you haven't done sufficient processing then tariffs will be due.

I don’t believe so. The tariffs are for “3rd countries”. It is as Duncan said above to stop imports that the eu like to tax sneaking into eu via Britain. If you add sufficient value or transformation then it is made in Britain. If it contains sufficient British components then it is also made in Britain. That can also be based bizarrely on weight. If it weren’t for other routes I could see lightweight carbon fibre frames being fitted with Carradice saddle bags.

[Cudzoziemiec]

It is not just the “amount of it” it is also how much it has been “worked”

One of the tests is if it has changed category. So taking in bike components and converting into a bike is ok.

Taking in bike components (spokes, hubs and rims) and converting into a wheel (still a component) you would have to show how much it had been worked - this could be based on value increase.

"Cumulation" in the jargon. I think the process has to add "significant value" for the exported item to qualify. I don't know if there's a definition of "significant"?

[Davef]

It is not just the “amount of it” it is also how much it has been “worked”

One of the tests is if it has changed category. So taking in bike components and converting into a bike is ok.

Taking in bike components (spokes, hubs and rims) and converting into a wheel (still a component) you would have to show how much it had been worked - this could be based on value increase.

"Cumulation" in the jargon.

That is particularly relevant to the energy gels in post #150 above

[DuncanM]

the seller is still responsible for collecting the VAT (and now has to submit it to the relevant tax authority directly).

I understand that's only on low value consignments, under £135. Those over are sold without VAT and it's collected on import.

I was intending to talk in general.  If you buy a TV from Currys, Currys have to collect the VAT and submit it to HMRC. The word "now" changed the whole meaning. 
Where Import and VAT overlap, things are more involved.

What's the rolling eyes about?

Sorry, was intended to be me messing up my own point. I managed to coonflate 2 issues and mix them up myself - it was not aimed at you or anyone else

[Paul H]

My understanding is that it makes no difference whether you've imported from the EU or anywhere else, if you haven't done sufficient processing then tariffs will be due.

I don’t believe so. The tariffs are for “3rd countries”. It is as Duncan said above to stop imports that the eu like to tax sneaking into eu via Britain. If you add sufficient value or transformation then it is made in Britain. If it contains sufficient British components then it is also made in Britain. That can also be based bizarrely on weight. If it weren’t for other routes I could see lightweight carbon fibre frames being fitted with Carradice saddle bags.

My interest is in retail, so other sectors may be different, I'm going of the guidance issued by the BRC

Goods which are imported from the EU to the UK and which do not undergo sufficient processing while in the UK, will not be eligible for the tariff preferences if they are re-exported to the EU. In that case, those goods will face EU MFN tariffs.

https://brc.org.uk/news/trade/rules-of-origin-guidance-on-the-uk-eu-tca-new-rules-of-origin/

[Davef]

My understanding is that it makes no difference whether you've imported from the EU or anywhere else, if you haven't done sufficient processing then tariffs will be due.

I don’t believe so. The tariffs are for “3rd countries”. It is as Duncan said above to stop imports that the eu like to tax sneaking into eu via Britain. If you add sufficient value or transformation then it is made in Britain. If it contains sufficient British components then it is also made in Britain. That can also be based bizarrely on weight. If it weren’t for other routes I could see lightweight carbon fibre frames being fitted with Carradice saddle bags.

My interest is in retail, so other sectors may be different, I'm going of the guidance issued by the BRC

Goods which are imported from the EU to the UK and which do not undergo sufficient processing while in the UK, will not be eligible for the tariff preferences if they are re-exported to the EU. In that case, those goods will face EU MFN tariffs.

https://brc.org.uk/news/trade/rules-of-origin-guidance-on-the-uk-eu-tca-new-rules-of-origin/

I stand corrected. It does seem bizarre- so if you shipped something from Europe and then shipped it back again ?

[Davef]

My understanding is that it makes no difference whether you've imported from the EU or anywhere else, if you haven't done sufficient processing then tariffs will be due.

I don’t believe so. The tariffs are for “3rd countries”. It is as Duncan said above to stop imports that the eu like to tax sneaking into eu via Britain. If you add sufficient value or transformation then it is made in Britain. If it contains sufficient British components then it is also made in Britain. That can also be based bizarrely on weight. If it weren’t for other routes I could see lightweight carbon fibre frames being fitted with Carradice saddle bags.

My interest is in retail, so other sectors may be different, I'm going of the guidance issued by the BRC

Goods which are imported from the EU to the UK and which do not undergo sufficient processing while in the UK, will not be eligible for the tariff preferences if they are re-exported to the EU. In that case, those goods will face EU MFN tariffs.

https://brc.org.uk/news/trade/rules-of-origin-guidance-on-the-uk-eu-tca-new-rules-of-origin/

I stand corrected. It does seem bizarre- so if you shipped something from Europe and then shipped it back again ?

I am still trying to understand this BRC/marks and sparks issue. I think it is does not apply to things made in the eu.

So you import some Camembert and reexport - fine.
You import a partially assembled bike from Italy that originated in China and was not sufficiently worked in Italy- you are hit by duties on import from italy. You don’t work it and export to France. Wham duties again. Three lots of duty. Ouch, particularly as bikes of Chinese origin are 50% duty.

[Davef]

I am returning to my previous position unswayed by Marks and Spencer’s.

The Chapter also provides for full bilateral cumulation (cumulation of both materials and processing) between the UK and the EU, allowing EU inputs and processing to be counted as UK input in UK products exported to the EU and vice versa. The ambitious arrangements include facilitations on average pricing, accounting segregation for certain products, as well as all materials, and tolerance by value. The rules are also supported by predictable and low- cost administrative arrangements for proving origin.

[Paul H]

I am returning to my previous position unswayed by Marks and Spencer’s.

The Chapter also provides for full bilateral cumulation (cumulation of both materials and processing) between the UK and the EU, allowing EU inputs and processing to be counted as UK input in UK products exported to the EU and vice versa. The ambitious arrangements include facilitations on average pricing, accounting segregation for certain products, as well as all materials, and tolerance by value. The rules are also supported by predictable and low- cost administrative arrangements for proving origin.

OK, I read that chapter (Rather than just the government spin) and then the parts of the agreement it's based on, then the difference between product specific and general provision, and came to

if the only processing carried out on a product in the UK is insufficient, it will not meet the rules of origin even if the processing was carried out on EU-originating materials or if further processing (beyond insufficient) had previously been carried out in the EU.

[Davef]

I am returning to my previous position unswayed by Marks and Spencer’s.

The Chapter also provides for full bilateral cumulation (cumulation of both materials and processing) between the UK and the EU, allowing EU inputs and processing to be counted as UK input in UK products exported to the EU and vice versa. The ambitious arrangements include facilitations on average pricing, accounting segregation for certain products, as well as all materials, and tolerance by value. The rules are also supported by predictable and low- cost administrative arrangements for proving origin.

OK, I read that chapter (Rather than just the government spin) and then the parts of the agreement it's based on, then the difference between product specific and general provision, and came to

if the only processing carried out on a product in the UK is insufficient, it will not meet the rules of origin even if the processing was carried out on EU-originating materials or if further processing (beyond insufficient) had previously been carried out in the EU.

I am struggling to comprehend what that means. Do you have a fuller context. It seems to contradict what is says in the summary.

[ScumOfTheRoad]

Seen on Twitter. This might be helpful in this thread
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rules-of-origin-for-goods-moving-between-the-uk-and-eu

[Davef]

Seen on Twitter. This ight be helpful in this thread
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rules-of-origin-for-goods-moving-between-the-uk-and-eu

It was from page 1 of that I posted the bit about bilateral cumulation. I am struggling to get my head round the whole thing.

[Paul H]

Seen on Twitter. This ight be helpful in this thread
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rules-of-origin-for-goods-moving-between-the-uk-and-eu

It was from page 1 of that I posted the bit about bilateral cumulation. I am struggling to get my head round the whole thing.

From the link above go to - 3. General Provisions: Checking Your Goods Meet the Rules of Origin
That's the agreement, rather than the Government spin.  It's quite clear that the cumulation applies only if there's been sufficient processing, which is what the BRC link says.  What constitutes sufficient processing varies with product type, there's general and specific rules.

[Davef]

Seen on Twitter. This ight be helpful in this thread
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rules-of-origin-for-goods-moving-between-the-uk-and-eu

It was from page 1 of that I posted the bit about bilateral cumulation. I am struggling to get my head round the whole thing.

From the link above go to - 3. General Provisions: Checking Your Goods Meet the Rules of Origin
That's the agreement, rather than the the Government spin.

I was digging my way through the actual trade agreement ! https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948119/EU-UK_Trade_and_Cooperation_Agreement_24.12.2020.pdf

[Davef]

Seen on Twitter. This ight be helpful in this thread
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rules-of-origin-for-goods-moving-between-the-uk-and-eu

It was from page 1 of that I posted the bit about bilateral cumulation. I am struggling to get my head round the whole thing.

From the link above go to - 3. General Provisions: Checking Your Goods Meet the Rules of Origin
That's the agreement, rather than the the Government spin.

I was digging my way through the actual trade agreement ! https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948119/EU-UK_Trade_and_Cooperation_Agreement_24.12.2020.pdf

Ok I get it now. I understood say importing Camembert and not doing anything to it, it would still be French and it would still be French if you sent it back to France. I assumed there would be no import duty going to France as I had read there would be no duties on items originating in eu or U.K.

I had misunderstood the word “or” in “eu or U.K.”. I thought it meant “either” but it means “the other party”

So the eu imposes duty on import of eu originating items! Well at least it will cut down on carbon emissions, getting rid of all this shipping back and forth of unchanged items.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I think "not doing anything to it" includes repackaging. I think this was a problem for Irish supermarkets, that items were being imported from EU to UK distribution centres, where they were put into Irish boxing and sent across the Irish Sea. This meant they were re-imports and subject to duty. If they just passed through the UK and never left the lorry, they would only be in transit, no duty. If they were substantially altered, they would be "cumulated", new product, no duty.

Not sure I haven't mixed something up there...

[DuncanM]

Does the Camenbert example also explain the difficulty Brooks had (due to them being shipped to Selle Italia before being re-shipped worldwide)?

[Davef]

I am still not 100% sure yet. The agreement prevents France for example charging duty on U.K. products.  It does not stop them charging duty on re-import of unaltered .french products, but I don’t know what rate this is at. It seems slightly odd. I don’t see who benefits from this.

[yoav]

AFAIK, the rules of origin apply even if the goods were originally made in the EU, exported to the UK and then re-imported into the EU - as already happened with Percy Pigs, which are made in Germany but are subject to tariffs when M&S exported them from the UK to Ireland.

[Davef]

AFAIK, the rules of origin apply even if the goods were originally made in the EU, exported to the UK and then re-imported into the EU - as already happened with Percy Pigs, which are made in Germany but are subject to tariffs when M&S exported them from the UK to Ireland.

As the CEO of M&S said “So, the best example is Percy Pig is actually manufactured in Germany, and if it comes to the UK and we then send it to Ireland, in theory, he would have some tax on it.”

What on earth does “in theory” mean ?

[DuncanM]

Much of EU->Eire goods transport is via the UK. If you put a sealed container on a lorry in Paris and unloaded it in Dublin, would it still carry duty if it drove through the UK en-route?

There's some interesting threads floating around about motorsport people who want to trailer their car to an event/race in the EU (and then return with the car) needing to buy a carnet (essentially a passport for the car) so as to prove that they aren't exporting it. As well as the fee for the carnet (a few hundred quid), you either have to lodge a deposit of 40% or the value of the car, or buy insurance that covers that deposit (varies according to value and duration of stay in the EU). Who knew about all these arcane regulations?

[Davef]

Much of EU->Eire goods transport is via the UK. If you put a sealed container on a lorry in Paris and unloaded it in Dublin, would it still carry duty if it drove through the UK en-route?

There's some interesting threads floating around about motorsport people who want to trailer their car to an event/race in the EU (and then return with the car) needing to buy a carnet (essentially a passport for the car) so as to prove that they aren't exporting it. As well as the fee for the carnet (a few hundred quid), you either have to lodge a deposit of 40% or the value of the car, or buy insurance that covers that deposit (varies according to value and duration of stay in the EU). Who knew about all these arcane regulations?

Freight in transit is fine. TIR and all that mullarky.

[Mr Larrington]

AFAIK, the rules of origin apply even if the goods were originally made in the EU, exported to the UK and then re-imported into the EU - as already happened with Percy Pigs, which are made in Germany but are subject to tariffs when M&S exported them from the UK to Ireland.

As the CEO of M&S said “So, the best example is Percy Pig is actually manufactured in Germany, and if it comes to the UK and we then send it to Ireland, in theory, he would have some tax on it.”

What on earth does “in theory” mean ?

It means “the CEO of M&S is as confused as the rest of us”?