Cost of carbon frames/bikes?

[andyoxon]

My perception is that a new entry level carbon framed bike is in the order of £800-1200.  When will the main stream bike names be marketing new carbon bikes in the domains currently inhabited by the 'lower end' aluminium and steel bikes.  I know that there are inexpensive carbon frames are available from China etc, but how long before mainstream brings carbon to the masses.  I'm not in the market for anything carbon, just interested, and suspicious of very substantial mark-ups...

[Dibdib]

Go Outdoors are about to release a carbon-framed road bike with a Sora-based groupset for £799, or with 105 for £999.

Obviously there's carbon and there's carbon, same as anything else.

[andyoxon]

£499 would be more impressive...    Still think they're missing a trick/enjoying the mark-ups too much.

[Dibdib]

My hunch, and this is just instinct, is that with so much demand for high-end carbon bikes and (presumably) a finite* amount of manufacturing capacity for making them, it just doesn't make economic sense to tie up the factories making crappy frames.


* and also in competition with other carbon-wrangling customers like aerospace and motorsport, to probably a greater extent than the alu-wrangling industry

[andyoxon]

My hunch, and this is just instinct, is that with so much demand for high-end carbon bikes and (presumably) a finite* amount of manufacturing capacity for making them, it just doesn't make economic sense to tie up the factories making crappy frames.


* and also in competition with other carbon-wrangling customers like aerospace and motorsport, to probably a greater extent than the alu-wrangling industry

Would the Calibre fit into this category?  I wonder what the production cost of this frame is?  It's the aspirational 'carrot' hoodwink, arguably...

[giropaul]

There seems to be an assumption in some that carbon = performance. Just as steel comes in many types, from gas pipe to 753, so "carbon" has a myriad of types, depending upon the type and size of the fibre, and the  "resin" etc. The lay-up is equally important.

At the top end I don't think that there would be a big perceivable difference between a £2,500 frame and a £3,500 frame, but they would, I'm sure, be preferable to a frame in a few £00 bike.

There seems to be some agreement generally that a reasonably good alloy frame can be at least as good as a lower-end carbon frame.

The "best" carbon is expensive as a raw material, in fact there have recently been supply shortages due in part to greater demands from the aerospace and aero industries.

[Mr Larrington]

The "best" carbon is expensive as a raw material, in fact there have recently been supply shortages due in part to greater demands from the aerospace and aero industries.

In contrast there was an absolute glut of Ti immediately after the fall of the Soviet Union.

[andyoxon]

There seems to be an assumption in some that carbon = performance. Just as steel comes in many types, from gas pipe to 753, so "carbon" has a myriad of types, depending upon the type and size of the fibre, and the  "resin" etc. The lay-up is equally important.

At the top end I don't think that there would be a big perceivable difference between a £2,500 frame and a £3,500 frame, but they would, I'm sure, be preferable to a frame in a few £00 bike.

There seems to be some agreement generally that a reasonably good alloy frame can be at least as good as a lower-end carbon frame.

The "best" carbon is expensive as a raw material, in fact there have recently been supply shortages due in part to greater demands from the aerospace and aero industries.

Interesting  - yes, apparently commercial grade carbon fibre is ~ USD 30-35/kg, whereas aerospace grade is USD 80-90/kg.   I'm guessing there's some grading code for carbon - that isn't always advertised by frame manufacturers.  How does one know that one's bike frame isn't a soot n'PVA mix.     edit.  I see Dogma frame carbon fibre is summat called T11001K...

[mrcharly-YHT]

In my experience of kayaks, the resin used is far more important than the grade of fabric.
Followed by the quality of work done in laying up the fabric and ensuring it is saturated with resin, then by the effort put into following correct curing temperatures and times.

It's a bit like the quality of brazing being important with a steel bike, only applying to everything rather than just the joints.

[Karla]

The "best" carbon is expensive as a raw material

Well yes ...

[mattc]

I'm not in the market for anything carbon, just interested,

Yeah, right!

 

[The French Tandem]

Making high end carbon parts is a tedious and time-consuming business that involves manually wrapping many layers of carbon fabrics pre-impregnated with epoxy resin over an open mold, before closing the mold and cooking under pressure for several hours. Making cheap carbon parts consists of injecting a mix of short fibers and resin into a closed mold using a high pressure pump.  The amount of manual work required by the second process is close to nothing.

The difference in mechanical properties of the two resulting parts is probably greater than the difference between the best Reynolds tubes and gas pipes.

[T42]

^^^Read recently that there are a lot of counterfeit carbon frames on the market, probably made the quick way.  There were warnings out that they'd be liable to fail under even moderate stress, like the welds on £500 Russian Ti frames 10+ years ago.

[Mr Larrington]

Someone in the F1 business once likened the building of a carbon chassis to be more like bespoke tailoring - this was in the early days of carbon when the ally alternatives were produced by men wielding hammers in sheds.

The cheap-ass alternative referred to by The French Tandem sounds like the VARI process invented by Lotus for non-structural composite parts, such as entire motor-car bodies.

[paul851]

It would appear that you can give away carbon frames now as part of a sales promotion 

Paul

[Hot Flatus]

It would appear that you can give away carbon frames now as part of a sales promotion 

Paul

I think that might just tell you something about PX carbon frames (actually all their frames)

[spesh]

It would appear that you can give away carbon frames now as part of a sales promotion 

Paul

I think that might just tell you something about PX carbon frames (actually all their frames)

Not to mention their marketing practices - as far as I can tell, they are saying that if you drop £800 on a Codeine frame, you get a carbon frame set thrown in for free - but if you actually go the the frames section of the PX site, it would appear that the Codeine frame-set is available for £549.99.

http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/ZXCODEINE/on-one-codeine-frameset

Seems to me it's more a case of 'buy a frame and get another half-price (+/- £50)', going by what the "free" frames normally sell for. 

[phantasmagoriana]

Go Outdoors are about to release a carbon-framed road bike with a Sora-based groupset for £799, or with 105 for £999.

Obviously there's carbon and there's carbon, same as anything else.

Argos are doing a carbon-framed bike with Sora for £399!

[Jurek]

Go Outdoors are about to release a carbon-framed road bike with a Sora-based groupset for £799, or with 105 for £999.

Obviously there's carbon and there's carbon, same as anything else.

Argos are doing a carbon-framed bike with Sora for £399!

Just to be clear.
That is Argos, as in The Laminated Book of Dreams.
Not Argos Cycles of Bristol.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Go Outdoors are about to release a carbon-framed road bike with a Sora-based groupset for £799, or with 105 for £999.

Obviously there's carbon and there's carbon, same as anything else.

Argos are doing a carbon-framed bike with Sora for £399!

Not made using chopped mat, either

I can confirm that It is T300/T500 mix Pregpreg. Also with 3K weave.

Thank you for using Argos Q&A

made by Liyang

[Dibdib]

Blimey. I'm going to have to wash my mouth out with soap for saying this, but that doesn't look too shabby for the price. Toray frame, Shimano R500 wheels, Ritchey finishing kit... I think the only Sora bits are the shifters and the rear mech but still!

[rogerzilla]

My Boardman was £850 with Tiagra kit.  The frame uses the same mould as the more expensive carbon models but this is a slightly heavier fibre mix, apparently.  It is a known weave and the reviews reckon it's good stuff.

I'd take carbon over titanium any day, although I don't think anyone makes a carbon touring bike with the necessary mounting points for racks and stuff.  The pro racers barely used titanium at all and went straight to carbon.  There's enough money to be made from titanium so I assume they did it for performance rather than pure marketing reasons.