What have people got against cyclists?

[Si_Co]

I'm not for massive infrastructure improvements aimed solely at cyclists.  We have a perfectly good cycling network in this country - our roads.

The roads are only a perfectly good cycling network for a very small part of the population, chiefly the fit, male, desperate or belligerent.  Everybody else doesn't see them as such, which is why they don't cycle.

You could say "it's not the roads, it's the drivers".  Sure, the roads would be much better if they weren't full of carelessly or aggressively driven motor vehicles, but they've got to go somewhere.  It's been repeatedly demonstrated that it's much simpler and more effective to create safe space for cycling by re-engineering the road environment than it is by attempting to manipulate driving habits through education or even law enforcement.


But I agree that infrastructure improvements shouldn't be solely for cyclists.  They should be for all non-motorised users - first and foremost pedestrians - including the young, the old and the disabled.  That means things like having priority when wanting to cross roads along the shortest path, as well as not being made to share the same physical space as cyclists.

my bold

I disagree, the reason most people don't cycle is that they are fundamentally lazy, its not a criticism really, its just human nature. Cheap motoring has just made laziness super easy.

[Kim]

That assumes that everyone has access to a motor vehicle, which they clearly don't.

[Fab Foodie]

But fundamentally, it sucks to be an out-group.  There's only two ways to win that, and one of them (altering your behaviour to achieve in-group status) is even worse.

I understand that sentiment.  But I actually like being in this out-group.  A rebel without a clue maybe, and a minor league rebel at that.  The difference with this out-group I can decide whether to be in it or not.  Other out-groups clearly don't have that choice.

[ian]

Laziness? That old trope. Really, so places were people don’t cycle, we accord that to them being ‘lazy’? That’s patronising and nonsensical. Are the Dutch somehow less lazy? Does some strange lethargy strike the people of Nottingham, while those of London buzz and fizz with unstoppable energy?

People will, of course, take the path of convenience. That’s not laziness. We’ve gradually let our environments mould themselves around the car, becomes products of a freely motorised lifestyle, to the point where we feel it may collapse if the car is removed. Pedestrians and cyclists have been deprioritised, public transport stripped back, distances extended as businesses flee to the concrete excrescences blistering the edge of our towns, we abandon local schools to decrepitude for the promise of a better education on the other side of town. Driving is cheap and convenient. Pavements have become places to park, roads have become infrastructure for cars, people are tolerated only as an inconvenience to traffic flow. Parking must be defended at all costs. The traffic warden becomes some kind of suburban ISIS, threatening our inalienable right to drive and park wherever and whenever it is convenient. Drivers have been convinced of their absolute entitlement. Who dares to tell them otherwise? They get to dress up as the victim. The war is against them. It’s never clear who’s on the other side of this war and quite what weapons they might be using. Somewhere around 1700 people will die on the roads this year. Tens of thousands more will be seriously injured. It’s not just the car that’s left wrecked and managed on the roadside, it’s lives. Somewhere around 30,000 people will have their death hastened by pollution, possibly hundreds of thousands other will have their activities curtailed and abbreviated. Millions of hours are lost in traffic jams, kids are locked away in their home away from traffic so they can instead get fat and sick, and people queue forlornly for the permission of the green man to cross. It's not about cycling, it's about the way we live.

Is it any wonder people don’t walk and cycle. Go look outside. The streets have become a hostile environment for anyone not in a car. We have a population who only drive. They have little empathy with those outside their own car, they've no need for it.

I’m sure it’s great for some cyclist to want to be an out-group. But seriously, that’s just selfish towards those from whom that choice has been stolen.

[Fab Foodie]

I’m sure it’s great for some cyclist to want to be an out-group. But seriously, that’s just selfish towards those from whom that choice has been stolen.

It's the out-group that generally brings about change .... Say it loud, I'm a cyclewanker and Proud .....

[ian]

I’m sure it’s great for some cyclist to want to be an out-group. But seriously, that’s just selfish towards those from whom that choice has been stolen.

It's the out-group that generally brings about change ....

Except it isn't.

[Peter]

I have always tried to be smiley to other road-users and to acknowledge considerate behaviour when I experience it.  But it's more to do with how I was brought up than out of a belief that I can change the minds of those who think I am a problem.  Not everyone smiles back.  I don't think considerate behaviour is going to change the minds of people who string lines across a path or throw tacks on the road.  Some of those people may think they are just putting over a point of view.  In fact they are dangerous criminals.  The sad thing is that in the current climate anyone prosecuted for such an offence is likely to have it dealt with as a problem of resentment, rather than the violent sociopathy that it is.

Peter

[nextSibling]

Thought experiment: Let's imagine an alternative universe which is identical to this one except that all cyclists are careful to always obey every traffic law. No cyclist ever rides on a footpath or jumps a red light, for example. Let's further imagine they all have some kind of registration, liability insurance and even pay some amount of a notional 'road tax'.

If that were all that true, does anyone really believe that drivers of motorised vehicles would consequently consider cyclists equals on the road, drive considerately about them, be careful to give them lots of space and time, consider them valuable collaborators in an integrated transport system? I don't. I think they'd just find some other excuse to behave as bullies.

[Fab Foodie]

I’m sure it’s great for some cyclist to want to be an out-group. But seriously, that’s just selfish towards those from whom that choice has been stolen.

It's the out-group that generally brings about change ....

Except it isn't.

It will ....

[TimC]

What will bring about change is the dawning governmental realisation that there simply isn't room to allow a continual increase in the number of vehicles trying to access the work, leisure and shopping honeypots via the ever-more-overloaded road system. The eureka moment when they accept that devoting less space to cars and more to pedestrian and cycling commuters means not only a better use of space, but a very much healthier environment. Cycling isn't just for lycra-clad roadies, or gnarled, be-sandalled barons of long-distance torture. It is - or should be - a valid transport choice for all those who don't wish (or can't afford) to use a car, irrelevant of their fitness levels or clothing choice. As the Netherlands and Denmark, in particular, have shown, the way to give people access to that choice is to provide the infrastructure to allow them not only to feel safe, but to feel that they belong. As Kim intimates, those of us who wish to continue sticking a metaphorical middle finger up to the motorist by riding our mean machines on the road will do so whatever, but it ain't about us.

[Canardly]

At last........

[P Walsh]

Maybe some of us ride worse roads than others, but my riding experience is generally a good one. I wouldn't do it if it wasn't. Most of my rides have no seriously close passes from motor vehicles, nobody pulling out in front of me, and no verbal abuse. Communication with other road users is mostly along the lines of a friendly wave (from them or me) to acknowledge one of us giving way. That is my normal experience on the road. Most road users are okay most of the time and we have to keep that in our minds or we will hate being out there.

[vorsprung]

Maybe some of us ride worse roads than others, but my riding experience is generally a good one. I wouldn't do it if it wasn't. Most of my rides have no seriously close passes from motor vehicles, nobody pulling out in front of me, and no verbal abuse. Communication with other road users is mostly along the lines of a friendly wave (from them or me) to acknowledge one of us giving way. That is my normal experience on the road. Most road users are okay most of the time and we have to keep that in our minds or we will hate being out there.

On a sunny day on the lanes on a Sunday yes that is true enough.  But commute on a wet Wednesday in heavy traffic, or go through a busy roundabout or near a supermarket or one of the other many many "no go zones" and you will be cut up, close fast passes will happen and occassionally worse

I wish I lived in the halcyon world of P Walsh but I feel this won't happen until cars are banned from town centres, drivers are actually sent to prison for injuring people with their cars and all commercial vehicle operation has safety as the top priority

[P Walsh]

Maybe some of us ride worse roads than others, but my riding experience is generally a good one. I wouldn't do it if it wasn't. Most of my rides have no seriously close passes from motor vehicles, nobody pulling out in front of me, and no verbal abuse. Communication with other road users is mostly along the lines of a friendly wave (from them or me) to acknowledge one of us giving way. That is my normal experience on the road. Most road users are okay most of the time and we have to keep that in our minds or we will hate being out there.

On a sunny day on the lanes on a Sunday yes that is true enough.  But commute on a wet Wednesday in heavy traffic, or go through a busy roundabout or near a supermarket or one of the other many many "no go zones" and you will be cut up, close fast passes will happen and occassionally worse

I wish I lived in the halcyon world of P Walsh but I feel this won't happen until cars are banned from town centres, drivers are actually sent to prison for injuring people with their cars and all commercial vehicle operation has safety as the top priority

Do you think the conflict is mainly a city thing?

[madcow]

To answer that you would need to separate out lazy, careless or dangerous driving caused by lack of knowledge or empathy and the downright Clarksoneque " Sod cyclists,I'll give him a fright " type of driving .
When you are on the receiving end of a close shave or cut in ,do you know the reason for it?

[ian]

As an inveterate cyclist, I go places by bike. Because it's convenient and it's means of locomotion I like. Every time I freewheel down a hill, there's that little jouissance of childhood, and that's something I've never felt in the driving seat of a car. Cramming myself onto a train a bus doesn't capture it either. That's just travel. A means to a literal end. I go by bike and I mostly enjoy it. Plus I'm uncoupled from travel delays, waiting for trains, even the traffic jams. I can get on and go and pretty much be where I want to be when I want to be. As a boon it keeps me skinny and healthy.

But I find the roads of London fairly hostile. It not news that cyclists like cycling. I stretch myself far enough to understand why people don't find the prospect attractive. I'd hazard even the most hardcore cyclist here won't be sending off their kids to do a couple of laps of E&C after school. Cycling, as it stands, is something that appeals to sporty males, confident and speedy, willing to fight it out with traffic. Often that's the game itself, you see them yelling at drivers, sprinting head down, arse up, trailing machismo.

I arrive at a meeting by bike and there's three responses to my mode of transport:

1. The Cool. They've done the same, or wish they had.

2. The Comments-Below-the-Line. They'll start on about 'those cyclists'. I'll be rude.

3. The Incredulous. 'Oh you must be so brave!' they'll utter, like you've just rode a hungry tiger up Everest. 'In London! I'd never...' and so on.

You can guess the biggest group. It may be convenient to call them lazy, but these are people I know. They go to gym, they climb mountains, they'll happily cycle back in the Netherlands or Germany. A couple have even tried it, and won't go back. My wife won't cycle on a road. She thinks I'm mad. Possibly I am, but really I want to see more ordinary people cycling. It should be an option for everyone. And the more people that cycle, the more that empathy grows. It stops being us and them and just becomes us.

[jsabine]

Maybe some of us ride worse roads than others, but my riding experience is generally a good one. I wouldn't do it if it wasn't. Most of my rides have no seriously close passes from motor vehicles, nobody pulling out in front of me, and no verbal abuse. Communication with other road users is mostly along the lines of a friendly wave (from them or me) to acknowledge one of us giving way. That is my normal experience on the road. Most road users are okay most of the time and we have to keep that in our minds or we will hate being out there.

This, exactly this.

Yes, even in London.

[Kim]

Thought experiment: Let's imagine an alternative universe which is identical to this one except that all cyclists are careful to always obey every traffic law. No cyclist ever rides on a footpath or jumps a red light, for example. Let's further imagine they all have some kind of registration, liability insurance and even pay some amount of a notional 'road tax'.

If that were all that true, does anyone really believe that drivers of motorised vehicles would consequently consider cyclists equals on the road, drive considerately about them, be careful to give them lots of space and time, consider them valuable collaborators in an integrated transport system? I don't. I think they'd just find some other excuse to behave as bullies.

Practical experiment:  Get a small, underpowered car.  The sort of thing generally used by primary school teachers and those too young to afford to insure anything better.  Drive politely and in strict accordance with the highway code.  See how you're treated by other drivers.

QED.

People do what they think they can get away with, which includes bullying those of lower perceived vehicular status than themselves.

[Jaded]

Kim, you get treated like that in a bigger car if you stick to the Highway Code.

Lawbreaking is endemic and unpunished.

[Kim]

Kim, you get treated like that in a bigger car if you stick to the Highway Code.

Lawbreaking is endemic and unpunished.

Yes, but a small car increases the amount of failures to yield, though not as much as a bike, and they're still looking for you.

I discovered this the first time I drove a big car.  Everyone was suddenly weirdly nice.... turned out they were just expecting me to drive like a bully.

[jsabine]

I have to say I don't really notice much difference in drivers' behaviour towards me, no matter what vehicle I'm operating (bicycle, small car, big car, 4x4-alike, white van).

It is of course quite possible that I drive (or ride) like a bully no matter what.

[Kim]

Maybe it's a London thing?  Dunno.  It's been a while.  I don't do much driving these days.

[Basil]

I actually find that I'm treated worse when I'm driving than when I'm cycling. 
Of course the worse treatment I receive is less life threatening.

Mrs. B has often commented that I drive like I'm riding my bike. (Usually in urban conflict situations) I'm not quite sure what she means, but I take it as a compliment rather than the criticism which she probably means.

[jsabine]

Maybe it's a London thing?  Dunno.  It's been a while.  I don't do much driving these days.

Quite probable.

I am used to a traffic dynamic that means if you move to take advantage of the merest hint of a gap, it opens up for you, but if you wait for more than a hint, you'll be waiting a long time. (My version of courtesy to other road users is that I'll give a big hint if I'm in a position to let them out - but they still need to take it.)

I realise that in a non-London environment, my driving may be seen as unnecessarily assertive - I do try to adapt to different ways when I'm acting as chauffeur to my MiL in Ireland ...

[Oscar's dad]

So the original question was "What have people got against cyclists?".  The answers seems to be that drivers resent having to share the roads with cyclists.

Certainly better infrastructure, like that in the Netherlands and Denmark, would solve the problem as drivers and cyclists would mostly be on separate bits of infrastructure. Undoubtedly introducing such infrastructure to the UK would increase the number of everyday cyclists using as a bike as transport.

But, here's the thing, for a whole variety of reasons I can't see the UK ever having cyclist infrastrure like the Dutch and Danes enjoy. So, if we can accept this uncomfortable truth what do we do?  We improve infrastructure where we can,  we enforce traffic laws both for cyclists and drivers, maybe we change the law so drivers are assumed to be in the wrong if a cyclist gets hit (can't think of the term), we make cycle training part of the driving test, Bikeability training gets introduced into the National Cirriculum, VAT on bikes and bike gear is removed, advertising of cars as aspirational objects is banned, we have campaigns to encourage road users to be nicer to each other etc.

Slowly as cycling is positively promoted as an everyday activity not a hobby, as non-cyclists get new skills which build their confidence the resentment between road users will fade. But it will probably take a couple of generations at least.