What have people got against cyclists?

[L CC]

I think we're forgetting that it's not just cyclists they hate. They also hate caravans (hell, Clarkson blows them up regularly), they hate tractors and they hate old ladies driving at an appropriate speed (the speed that they can stop safely at). They hate lorries (elephant racing, and ?40 ?50mph on b-roads). They hate each other. Get in that box and every other fucker is just out to ruin your day.

[Jaded]

The 'cyclists are Mamils' meme needs to be changed too.

Trouble is, the Mamils is where the money is. Not the flat cap and boiler suit off to work, or the flowers and basket down to the shops.

[marcusjb]

I think we're forgetting that it's not just cyclists they hate. They also hate caravans (hell, Clarkson blows them up regularly), they hate tractors and they hate old ladies driving at an appropriate speed (the speed that they can stop safely at). They hate lorries (elephant racing, and ?40 ?50mph on b-roads). They hate each other. Get in that box and every other fucker is just out to ruin your day.

True that.

They are the same people who will push my wife out of the way whilst walking to the train station, despite there still being 5 minutes before the train comes.

They is we.  We are all in too much of a hurry.  No one has the right to hold us up for even a fraction of a second.  How dare they?  I need to get to that red light now. 

I am just pleased that so many people are so enjoying their job that they need to get there quicker.

As ever, the likelihood of significant injury to others is somewhat amplified when the person in a hurry is in two tonnes of wankpanzer.

[MikeFromLFE]

I suspect that marcusjb & fobs do have one major part of the issue that many of us experience as the problem*
Since I stopped commuting, and stopped driving at 70+ I find travelling much more bearable in that I don't have the time pressures that want me to 'push your wife out of the way' or to get in front of the next car ahead. We are as a society in to much of a rush.

*I rarely experience anything other than generalised consideration when cycling - but I accept others have a very different experience, but I don't know why. Most of my cycling these days is leisure riding in rural Leicestershire. Sure, I get occasional close passes (usually from East European lorries on one particular stretch of the A47 when they are heading for the Caterpillar factory) but they I feel them as unpleasant rather than dangerous.

[ian]

So the original question was "What have people got against cyclists?".  The answers seems to be that drivers resent having to share the roads with cyclists.

Certainly better infrastructure, like that in the Netherlands and Denmark, would solve the problem as drivers and cyclists would mostly be on separate bits of infrastructure. Undoubtedly introducing such infrastructure to the UK would increase the number of everyday cyclists using as a bike as transport.

But, here's the thing, for a whole variety of reasons I can't see the UK ever having cyclist infrastrure like the Dutch and Danes enjoy. So, if we can accept this uncomfortable truth what do we do?  We improve infrastructure where we can,  we enforce traffic laws both for cyclists and drivers, maybe we change the law so drivers are assumed to be in the wrong if a cyclist gets hit (can't think of the term), we make cycle training part of the driving test, Bikeability training gets introduced into the National Cirriculum, VAT on bikes and bike gear is removed, advertising of cars as aspirational objects is banned, we have campaigns to encourage road users to be nicer to each other etc.

Slowly as cycling is positively promoted as an everyday activity not a hobby, as non-cyclists get new skills which build their confidence the resentment between road users will fade. But it will probably take a couple of generations at least.

See, we're back with an improbable range of things having to happen in accord. Our built environments are continually renewed and maintained. We can certainly build, amend, and improve. The current road system didn't just arrive overnight. All that really needs to change is the focus on motorised vehicles. That's one simple thing.

[TimC]

[snip]But, here's the thing, for a whole variety of reasons I can't see the UK ever having cyclist infrastrure like the Dutch and Danes enjoy. So, if we can accept this uncomfortable truth what do we do? [/snip]

No, I don't accept that at all. We build infrastructure all the time, and spend a great deal of money on it. As yet, it's not intended to reduce vehicle use and increase cycle and pedestrian travel, but the pressure is building and it will come. In the meantime we can demand that greater efforts are made by the authorities to deter and penalise unsafe drivers, and attempt to encourage a greater sense of sharing, but that essentially is an attempt to change human nature, and is a damn sight more difficult than building infrastructure!

[sg37409]

I think we're forgetting that it's not just cyclists they hate. They also hate caravans (hell, Clarkson blows them up regularly), they hate tractors and they hate old ladies driving at an appropriate speed (the speed that they can stop safely at). They hate lorries (elephant racing, and ?40 ?50mph on b-roads). They hate each other. Get in that box and every other fucker is just out to ruin your day.

Disagree.
The difference is that lorries and tractors and old ladies is that they're not out playing.  Theyre working.  Cyclists are usally just men out playing on their bikes.  This makes it inconvient but understandable when your held up by tractors but how dare the cyclists.  I'd say around half of the cyclo-commuters I see are in cycle-specific clothing (lycra) singling them out as sporty/enthusiast/cyclists (or the 'us' as Ian dislikes so much)

[Jaded]

Cannot see the UK building cycle tracks everywhere. There isn't the space or the political will power or the money.

[Kim]

I think that depends where and when you encounter them.  I'd suggest that the overwhelming majority of people cycling on-road in a city are doing so for transport.  At commute o'clock, the majoirty of the city off-road cyclists probably are too.  Out in the lanes it's mostly going to be sport and leisure, with a handful of committed longer-distance commuters.

But I don't think that makes all that much difference to how you're treated (other than looking like you might be fast might get you a bit more respect on the road).  I find that utility cycling causes me to "get in the way" of far more motorists than leisure cycling does, and the whole "get a fucking car" argument hinges on the journey being for transport rather than exercise.

When I'm riding for fun, I do make a habit of pulling over and letting vehicles that are clearly on the job (tractors, HGVs, etc) past as soon as possible.  I'm less accommodating when lugging the shopping about in town.

[Kim]

Cannot see the UK building cycle tracks everywhere. There isn't the space or the political will power or the money.

There is the space, when you re-allocate it from motor vehicles.  It will pay for itself in reduced maintenance alone if the modal share changes accordingly.

It's the political will that's the sticking point.

[TheLurker]

What have people got against cyclists?  Easy!  They know we're right and what's more they know we own the moral, ethical and environmental high ground (and we're probably all kind to dumb animals as well) and it really gets on their tits. 

Seriously? I don't know, don't care and I am just going to ignore them and get on with enjoying my cycling.

[red marley]

They is we.  We are all in too much of a hurry.  No one has the right to hold us up for even a fraction of a second.  How dare they?  I need to get to that red light now. 

I am just pleased that so many people are so enjoying their job that they need to get there quicker.

As ever, the likelihood of significant injury to others is somewhat amplified when the person in a hurry is in two tonnes of wankpanzer.

I'm not sure it's "in a hurry" that motivates this behaviour. It doesn't explain why you get that overtake 20 metres before the back end of a stationary queue of traffic. Or why people drive in situations when it is clear other modes of transport (including walking and cycling) would be quicker. There's something else going on to do with power plays and the illusion of control and independence.

[jsabine]

They is we.  We are all in too much of a hurry.  No one has the right to hold us up for even a fraction of a second.  How dare they?  I need to get to that red light now. 

I am just pleased that so many people are so enjoying their job that they need to get there quicker.

As ever, the likelihood of significant injury to others is somewhat amplified when the person in a hurry is in two tonnes of wankpanzer.

I'm not sure it's "in a hurry" that motivates this behaviour. It doesn't explain why you get that overtake 20 metres before the back end of a stationary queue of traffic. Or why people drive in situations when it is clear other modes of transport (including walking and cycling) would be quicker. There's something else going on to do with power plays and the illusion of control and independence.

I think it does explain the overtake just before a queue or a red light - it's "in a hurry" modified by (literal) myopia, as the driver focuses on the immediate delay caused by that oh-so-slow cyclist to the absolute exclusion of anything further up the road, feeling that the sooner they are in the queue, the sooner they will be out of it.

As for where other modes would be quicker, first you're assuming that people will have calculated this rationally (because walking and cycling and buses are slo, as any fule kno, and therefore driving *must* be faster), and second, how on earth is a driver supposed to avoid getting sweaty or to carry their briefcase¦handbag¦shopping if they can't put it in the boot?

I think you're right about illusions of control and independence (hell, having seen those illusions for what they are, my reasons for utility cycling are largely about control and independence) - not so sure about power games, at least for the majority.

[caerau]

In their perception it's quicker.  Although of course it isn't in fact. 90% of the time.


I had a right ding-dong argument with a woman in a car a few weeks back after she accelerated hard past me with about an inch to spare between the car and my leg - with a traffic jam being visible all the way to the horizon.  Her mistake was that I finally lost it with this shit momentarily and that she had her window open when she stopped.
My first enquiry was to where she thought she was going to go.
After she told me her destination ( ) I re-explaine, gesturing at the massive stationary jam that she wasn't moving anywhere in a hurry.


I then could see the cogs in the brain turn as she looked ahead and mentally thought - 'oh yeah'


Some of these people are  - *whispers* - not very intelligent.

Keeps them out of the rain and they can listen to those traffic reports telling them about the jam they're already in on the radio too.

[Oscar's dad]

Cannot see the UK building cycle tracks everywhere. There isn't the space or the political will power or the money.

This was my point.

[Kim]

I'm not sure it's "in a hurry" that motivates this behaviour.

I reckon it's perceived social pressure not to hold up the vehicle behind.

[Zipperhead]

Some of these people are  - *whispers* - not very intelligent.

There's an awful lot of villages missing their idiots.

[jsabine]

Some of these people are  - *whispers* - not very intelligent.

There's an awful lot of villages missing their idiots.

Are you saying that some people in this fine nation of ours are _below average?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Around half of them, perhaps?

[Dibdib]

Kim, you get treated like that in a bigger car if you stick to the Highway Code.

Lawbreaking is endemic and unpunished.

Yes, but a small car increases the amount of failures to yield, though not as much as a bike, and they're still looking for you.

I discovered this the first time I drove a big car.  Everyone was suddenly weirdly nice.... turned out they were just expecting me to drive like a bully.

As the owner of The Only Beemer With Indicators () I have to agree. I suspect I get a little more "competitive" aggro from other Rep Car Wankers, typically Audis, but ignoring them is easy and on the whole I get a lot more space than in a little runabout.

[De Sisti]

As the owner of The Only Beemer With Indicators ( )

Mine came with them too, and I use also use them.

[Canardly]

Isn't the reality that drivers, as well as being financially fleeced by just about everyone, now find that driving itself is just becoming a royal PITA. Cyclists are handily placed to target the resulting venom. There are no traffic jams in car sales advertising land.

[Oaky]

Cannot see the UK building cycle tracks everywhere. There isn't the space or the political will power or the money.

This was my point.

Whilst population density isn't the only factor in the amount of space available, it is one of the important ones.

The Netherlands has a far higher population density than the UK.

[Kim]

Isn't the reality that drivers, as well as being financially fleeced by just about everyone

That'll be "financially fleeced" in the 'heavily subsidised' sense?

[Canardly]

  Perceptions and reality.