e-scooter trial

[rogerzilla]

Two middle-aged knobends riding e-scooters on the pavement made an old lady jump last night when I was out for a walk.

"You should know better at your age!", she shouted.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarggggggggggh! Who let you in here so quickly? You obviously have extremely sensitive Ferengi-dar!

I aim to please!

J

On five occasions, that article refers to the scooterist as "the/a male". Someone keep Quixoticgeek away!

Clearly a police-ism in this context.  Presumably they're regurgitating a press release.

(Makes me wonder where that police-ism originated.  Possibly a deliberate avoidance of using 'man' or 'woman' to describe people who may be under 18?)

I think that's highly probable on both counts.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Just been for a run up on the Downs. There must have been 150 or more scooters on the corner of Ladies Mile and the main road across the Downs, opposite the cafe. Later I saw at least the same number again at the Redland Road corner of the Downs. What's going on then? It's Love Saves The Day. They must be the ideal transport for events. Pure e-power, so easy on the legs after dancing the night and day away. Slow enough not to be too hazardous while inebriated (actually saw very few obviously intoxicated people). Reliable, you know it's there and you won't have to wait, unlike the bus. Goes door to door, unlike the bus. Social, can be ridden in groups for sociability and safety.

[nuttycyclist]

Child aged four taken to hospital after a collision with a hire e-scooter taking part in the trials

https://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/19558409.child-taken-hospital-following-e-scooter-collision/

[ian]

Fortunately, I'm sure, absolutely no children were injured by or in cars yesterday.

[nuttycyclist]

I don't believe that any children were injured by cars in a pedestrianised area which would have been extremely crowded (based on my experience of that air show several years ago) and where (from memory) cycling is banned during the day to protect pedestrians.  That was one thing that cropped up when we were discussing the Southend seafront path, a long straight wide promenade which is an ideal cycle route, but during summer cyclists cannot use it during the day.

The linked article states

We are yet again urging people not to ride either Beryl or privately-owned e-scooters inside the festival site because of the sheer number of people in the area and to help keep people safe.

“Throughout this weekend our officers and council staff will be stopping people riding e-scooters inside the festival site area. If they are privately-owned, they will be seized and if they are part of the Beryl scheme, riders will be encouraged to dismount. Should they commit any offences they will be dealt with under the Road Traffic Act.”

I am neither for or against e-scooters; but I am against riders who behave in the same manner as irresponsible cyclists who break the rules, endanger others, and give responsible users a bad name.  If it wasn't for cyclists who do that then we'd have a much easier life when it comes to being allowed to ride anywhere, and we wouldn't have so much anti-cyclist hatred amongst the non-cycling population.

[Paul H]

we wouldn't have so much anti-cyclist hatred amongst the non-cycling population.

I've heard that often, but have yet to see any supporting evidence.
In those countries where cycling is much more commonplace and the hatred less, I haven't noticed any corresponding improvement in individual's behaviour.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Unfortunately, children and adults are frequently injured by cars in pedestrian areas, and occasionally even in their homes.

[Kim]

we wouldn't have so much anti-cyclist hatred amongst the non-cycling population.

I've heard that often, but have yet to see any supporting evidence.
In those countries where cycling is much more commonplace and the hatred less, I haven't noticed any corresponding improvement in individual's behaviour.

Meanwhile drivers behave badly all the time, and these are considered to be the acts of individuals.  In the Netherlands, where cycling is normal, everyone hates the motor scooter riders.

It's about out-groups, not means of transport.

[DuncanM]

I don't believe that any children were injured by cars in a pedestrianised area which would have been extremely crowded (based on my experience of that air show several years ago) and where (from memory) cycling is banned during the day to protect pedestrians.  That was one thing that cropped up when we were discussing the Southend seafront path, a long straight wide promenade which is an ideal cycle route, but during summer cyclists cannot use it during the day.

Roughly 40 people a year are killed by cars on pavements or pedestrian refuges:
https://www.roadpeace.org/2020/02/17/pedestrian-pavement-deaths/

I couldn't find any data on people injured on pavements by cars.

[Kim]

I suffered life-changing injuries when a car mounted a wide grass verge that I was walking on (there wasn't a pavement).

As such, I have an unusually realistic idea about the protective power of kerb stones.

Nevertheless, their presence makes most pedestrians/cyclists feel safer, which means they're more inclined to walk and cycle, which makes it safer.

[ian]

we wouldn't have so much anti-cyclist hatred amongst the non-cycling population.

I've heard that often, but have yet to see any supporting evidence.
In those countries where cycling is much more commonplace and the hatred less, I haven't noticed any corresponding improvement in individual's behaviour.

There is no supporting evidence, that's why. It's not any other person's fault if a driver behaves aggressively and dangerously. It's like blaming a domestic abuse victim for making their partner angry. We need to stop thinking like this. It's lazy and wrong and I shouldn't have to explain it to be people who cycle and are, as a consequence and for no other reason, frequently on the receiving end of random harassment and abuse, and often actual physical danger.

Nor am I somehow responsible for the behaviour of other cyclists (or other drivers, or other pedestrian's for that matter).

As a random aside, the staff at Frankfurt airport tend to zip around on bikes. No one seems to be terrorized by this. But then airport staff the world over drive large electric vehicles through crowded spaces.

[Kim]

But then airport staff the world over drive large electric vehicles through crowded spaces.

Ever noticed how when members of the crowd finally twig that the beeping and flashing warns of the approach of such a vehicle, they quietly and without a fuss either move to the side, or stay put as their sense of self-importance dictates.  But if they look over their shoulder and instead discover a bicycle being wheeled, they leap aside with an enthusiasm only usually seen on Sustrans paths.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Apparently we do now have some Voi docks and painted parking bays in Bristol. Just not round here.
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/pavement-parking-racks-installed-for-hire-e-scooters-voi-bristol/
And a ray of hope:

One future solution could be to install e-scooter parking zones in place of car parking spaces on roads.

[andrewc]

https://lbndaily.co.uk/liverpool-extends-e-scooter-trial-six-months


Students get 50% discount.  That’s why they are so popular then. Not exactly cheap otherwise.

[Cudzoziemiec]

In June a new set of measures were introduced to reduce the risk of accidents. They include:

New painted parking bays added across Liverpool, with a plans for more than 400 over the coming months – and £25 fines will continue to be issued for illegal or dangerous parking.
At weekends use of the e-scooters will be more controlled, with certain additional areas designated as ‘no riding zones’ and a full stop of the service after 9pm on Friday, Saturday and Sunday.
Stronger enforcement of Voi’s strike policy – users breaking rules of the road will be issued temporary (one week, one month) or permanent bans.
A shift from the free-floating model, where users can park wherever they choose within reason, to one where they will be required to park in specific parking zones in most areas.

I think the parking restrictions are a good idea and wish they'd get around to introducing similar in Bristol. Docks are probably slightly more effective than bays (referring to parking in both cases, not the watery areas things like this otherwise end up in) but either would be an improvement.

But a full stop of service after 9pm at weekends is counteractive. In fact I'd say it's likely dangerous. One of the great things about the hire scooters is that students, teenagers and other party-minded people use them to go out to pubs, clubs, gigs and so on as a group. You see (here, not in Liverpool I guess) little flotillas of scooters heading into town on a Saturday night, the riders laughing and chatting together. And as a parent, I'd rather my pissed-up, drugged-up teenage offspring* were heading back after a hard night partying and substance abusing on their own vehicle which they're in control of in the company of friends than either waiting for bus, getting into a possibly unlicensed taxi, or chancing a lift with an equally unfit mate or not-quite mate. Making it impossible to return by the means you went out breaks the "out together, home together" principle.

*Mine is quite restrained but speaking hypothetically

[andrewc]

[size=78%] You see (here, not in Liverpool I guess) little flotillas of scooters heading into town on a Saturday night, [/size]

Nope. Convoys to & from the outlying student residential areas are a regular occurrence.  Almost deserving of their own group noun.... 

[Cudzoziemiec]

So what does the "full stop of the service after 9pm of Friday, Saturday and Sunday" refer to?

[andrewc]

Damn. Sorry, I skimmed that bit & thought you were talking about a scheme in Bristol.    That's the first I've heard of that change & agree it's silly. 

[Cudzoziemiec]

Today I saw someone riding an e-scooter and a skateboard at the same time.

He had the (non-electric) skateboard placed sideways over the scooter deck, with his feet on the skateboard, actually outside the body of the scooter so not needing the usual fore and aft foot positioning. And he could be a cool skater while at the same time being a Voi nerd.

[Kim]

Is this the modern equivalent of the People's Republic sk8er d00ds catching the bus to the top of the hill and skateboarding back down?

[Cudzoziemiec]

Mayor of WoE says enforcement and legislation needed.

“People say they love whizzing across Bristol on e-scooters up and down our steep hills,” said the Metro Mayor. “But there are also concerns from other road users and pedestrians. I believe effective enforcement is key to ensure safety and my guess is that new carefully thought through legislation will be needed from the government,” he added.

The Government will decide on one of three broad options: either end the hire trials and continue the ban on e-scooters of any kind; allow e-scooters, but only if hired in schemes like the Voi one, or allow both hired and privately-owned e-scooters to be ridden on roads.

If that third option is pursued, then there will be decisions to be made on the level of regulation - whether, for instance, e-scooters will be treated in the same way as mopeds, with requirements for MoTs, number plates, crash helmets, driving licences and insurance, for example, or whether they are treated like electric bicycles, with much less regulation

[drossall]

I'm not sure it's sensible to think about one kind of transport in isolation. First, a lot of users of e-scooters will have driving licences (and therefore training), and some will have done cycle training. Second, it would be hard to make a case for compulsory training, licences or whatever for e-scooters and not for e-bikes. Legally (in the UK), those latter are just bikes, so therefore also for bikes.

I assume that one aim of the trials is to see how many problems e-scooters really cause, as opposed to doing everything according to prejudice and perception. Since ordinary bikes are assumed by many to be far more dangerous than they are, I wouldn't want other modes handled by perception either. As things stand, licensing, insurance and the rest are applied to our motor vehicles because of the proven, substantial level of extra danger that those bring. Let's make sure that we don't muddy the waters.

I've never ridden either an e-bike or an e-scooter, by the way.

[Kim]

I'm not sure it's sensible to think about one kind of transport in isolation.

Agreed.  I think the pragmatic solution is to have several categories of personal electric vehicles, and I think it should be design-agnostic (so encompassing scooters, electric assist cycles, segways, unicycles, skateboards, wheelchairs, mobility scooters, whatever):

• Limited to walking speed, but allowed on pavements, footpaths, etc.  No licencing, insurance or PPE requirements.  (Roughly the UK Class 2 Invalid Carriage, but I'd include things like ride-on toys for small children or powered trolleys for delivering stuff)
• Limited to reasonable cycling speed (the EU standard 25kph/250W seems eminently sensible) and treated as legally equivalent to bicycles - so no requirements for licencing, insurance or PPE, but age restricted and some construction and use rules pertaining to roadworthiness (brakes, lights, etc).
• Possibly some sort of ~30mph moped class (like the Speed Pedelecs they have in some European countries), with number-plate, licencing and insurance requirements, but more bicycle-style construction and use, and minimal barriers to ownership compared to true motorcycles.
• Everything else is a motor vehicle.

In particular I'd do away with the Class 3 Invalid Carriage (mobility scooters and wheelchairs with lights and indicators that are allowed to do 8mph when on the road) and bring them up to 15mph e-bike spec.  And allow them to use cycle facilities, because it's bloody stupid that they currently can't.

Ideally, it should be more-or-less obvious from the type of vehicle what sort of speed it's likely to be going.  So bicycle-like things go at bicycle-like speeds, regardless of power source.  (I'd do away with silly requirements for having to pedal - it adds nothing to safety and serves mainly as a barrier to e-bike use by disabled people.)

It may well be impossible to build an electric skateboard/unicycle/hovercraft/etc with braking appropriate for 15mph.  I'd suggest that these should either conform to the walking-speed class, or remain illegal to operate on the public highway.

[drossall]

Maybe, if you want to keep it generic, there should be a braking requirement as well? Bikes at present are, IIRC, supposed to have efficient brakes, without that being defined particularly closely. So it shouldn't be impossible to have some basic braking requirement to keep a vehicle in the "bike" class. Might have to take account of mass, or more specifically of kinetic energy, as electric vehicles can be quite heavy, but even they probably don't weigh that much by comparison with the rider.