Author Topic: Tandem Braking  (Read 14455 times)

ed_o_brain

Tandem Braking
« on: 09 March, 2010, 11:52:25 pm »
As Summer is on the way, I've had one or two thoughts about getting the tandem sorted out for a couple of summer rides with the littl'un in tow.

What compliment of brakes works well in hilly terrain?

Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #1 on: 10 March, 2010, 08:00:17 am »
What fitments has the bike got?

My 26 inch wheeler works perfectly well with v's front and rear, no drag or other third brake.   The 700c wheeler currently has a v up front and a canti on the rear.   Not quite as effective.   It does have an Arai drum drag brake but I still haven't got round to attaching it.   :o     

Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #2 on: 10 March, 2010, 08:09:33 am »
I've found that the Stoker shouting  screaming 'STOP!' seems to work ;D. It was downhill on gravel. I hate gravel >:(.
In conjunction with cantilevers and a drum brake. Having said that, we're getting a rear disc as a drag brake whilst we're having a respray and stuff done at Bob Jackson :D. And the control will be on the stoker bar :thumbsup:. That may make me feel more in control on the descents - I'm not a wimp on the solo :-[.
Quote from: Kim
^ This woman knows what she's talking about.

eck

  • Gonna ride my bike until I get home...
    • Angus Bike Chain CC
Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #3 on: 10 March, 2010, 08:19:34 am »
FWIW, we have a rather Heath-Robinson arrangement that seems to work, sort of.  :-\
Normal cantilever on the front, a very powerful ancient double pivot on the back, both operated from Tektro levers on drop bars. Also as an emergency "OMG we're never going to stop in time" brake, a pair of Suntour "Self Energising" cantis on the back, operated from Mrs eck's stoker bars. The emergency brake has been called in to service more than once.  :-[

We do have a rear wheel with a drum brake but I need to get a freewheel and a Round Tuit to fit it.

If tandem descents get too scary, Mrs eck just closes her eyes. So do I.  ;D
It's a bit weird, but actually quite wonderful.

Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #4 on: 10 March, 2010, 08:26:16 am »

If tandem descents get too scary, Mrs eck just closes her eyes. So do I.  ;D
This is also a tecnique that I employ :). It doesn't work on gravel.
Quote from: Kim
^ This woman knows what she's talking about.

eck

  • Gonna ride my bike until I get home...
    • Angus Bike Chain CC
Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #5 on: 10 March, 2010, 08:52:00 am »

If tandem descents get too scary, Mrs eck just closes her eyes. So do I.  ;D
This is also a tecnique that I employ :). It doesn't work on gravel.
Thank you, Butterfly, for that advice. We shall be careful to avoid gravel.  :thumbsup:
It's a bit weird, but actually quite wonderful.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #6 on: 10 March, 2010, 09:34:03 am »
...the control will be on the stoker bar :thumbsup:.

I am less & less convinced that this is a good idea ;)
Getting there...

Tim

Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #7 on: 10 March, 2010, 10:00:31 am »
Hilly terrain and tandems.... can't say that we've made that combination since the Hilly 50 on Saturday.

Suntour SE cantis controlled from STIs (note the front one is mounted on the rear of the fork) and an Arai drag brake which only got employed when I was trying to pace with Charlotte (on fixed) down Box Hill. All other descents were stopped at the bottom using rim brakes.

Mind you I did have to fettle the brakes prior to the ride - (the toll of winter) blocks halfway through and some distance from the rims and to persuade the spring arm on the drag brake as it wasn't always releasing.

And don't put brakes in the stoker's reach - they'll have you both off.

Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #8 on: 10 March, 2010, 10:04:39 am »
Brakes. like gears and steering is for the person in control of the machine, not the slave power unit.   :demon:

rdaviesb

Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #9 on: 10 March, 2010, 10:18:18 am »
Brakes. like gears and steering is for the person in control of the machine, not the slave power unit.   :demon:

Absolutely!

We've got Magura HS33 on the front, 203mm Magura Louise Disk on the back, and Avid V brakes controlled by a thumbshifter as an extra element of drag / parking brake also on the rear. Once the disk was warn in it became as effective as throwing the anchors out; I've actually managed to lock the rear up on two occasions........

Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #10 on: 10 March, 2010, 10:22:19 am »
Our primary stopping system is much like Eck's - cantis on the front, dual pivot calliper on the rear.  We also have a drum on the rear, operated from a bar-end gear lever on the stoker's bar.  The drum is not a stopping brake - just something to moderate speed on long descents.  Allows me to concentrate on modulating the main brakes, and to avoid overheating the rims.

I accept the argument that control should rest with the captain, but marital harmony has a price, too ;D

rdaviesb

Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #11 on: 10 March, 2010, 10:24:01 am »
I accept the argument that control should rest with the captain, but marital harmony has a price, too ;D

...I've placated stoker with the toy that is the Garmin........

Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #12 on: 10 March, 2010, 10:34:44 am »
I read maps. Sometimes pinned to Clarion's back. This does NOT make up for being unable to reach the brake when descending ;). The drum brake on the 26" wheel tandem is operated by the stoker with no ill effects.  :P The problems of stoker operable brakes are mainly in the minds of the neurotic pilots :P :P :P. I have had a few interesting rides when I've piloted with a young stoker who put the drag brake on. No real problems though and it doesn't take long to notice ;D.
Quote from: Kim
^ This woman knows what she's talking about.

ed_o_brain

Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #13 on: 10 March, 2010, 12:05:31 pm »
I accept the argument that control should rest with the captain, but marital harmony has a price, too ;D

...I've placated stoker with the toy that is the Garmin........

Yeah my stoker gets to play with the Garmin and take care of navigation! A true copilot!


I really need to properly work out the gradients of some of the worst hills we are likely to go down and get back to you. The one outside the house is at least 15%, I had 25 mph going down there solo with generous applications of the brake every couple of wheel revolutions on the way down. When I make it down there without fear of ice, I will try freewheeling and see what speed I get up to.

The tandem is just a Dawes Discovery Twin with Shimano Vee brakes. It looks like it has IS mountings on the rear for a disc, although I need to measure the distance between the mounting lugs to confirm they are standard.

Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #14 on: 10 March, 2010, 02:18:21 pm »
The owners of this Santana seem to have gone to considerable trouble/expense to sort braking! Don't often see Santanas for sale I imagine:

Santana Arriva Tandem in Superb Condition, size L/M on eBay (end time  17-Mar-10 12:06:43 GMT)
Let right or wrong alone decide
God was never on your side.

Pancho

  • لَا أَعْبُدُ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ
Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #15 on: 10 March, 2010, 02:28:32 pm »
We have a Dawes Double Edge (IIRC) with just bog standard V's fore and aft.

We've done the Round the Island ride on it - a ride not renowned for its flatness - and not found this set up lacking in any way. That said, we are sedate cyclists and don't try and eek every last bit of speed from every downhill.

The Mrs P vocal speed moderating system helps.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #16 on: 10 March, 2010, 02:32:22 pm »
The owners of this Santana seem to have gone to considerable trouble/expense to sort braking! Don't often see Santanas for sale I imagine:

Santana Arriva Tandem in Superb Condition, size L/M on eBay (end time  17-Mar-10 12:06:43 GMT)

The pilot only controls the front brakes? :o :o :o
Getting there...

shortclaud

Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #17 on: 12 March, 2010, 05:08:08 am »
No doubt to those who have 'been there-done that' an unnecessary confirmation, but this topic of tandem descending slopes is worth consideration. Our tourer, having given thousands of miles over varied terrain and being stopped satisfactorily with a front and rear V brakes only, disgraced itself last year in Cornwall by blowing off the rear Schwalbe Marathon on a impressively steep decline. Highly not recommended. Am now dusting down that Aria drag brake for next time.


rdaviesb

Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #18 on: 12 March, 2010, 06:38:24 am »
Quote
The pilot only controls the front brakes? :o :o :o

Madness! When the stoker is reading the map they shouldn't be distracted by the minor problem of running into a wall!  :demon: :smug:

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #19 on: 12 March, 2010, 09:27:40 am »
I am not the largest pilot around, and I wouldn't want to have to rely on a stoker controlling the rear brakes based only on what she could see round me, and my instructions, which might be more garbled the more urgent they are.
Getting there...

thing1

  • aka Joth
    • TandemThings
Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #20 on: 14 March, 2010, 07:07:24 pm »
Quote
Decent stopping power just from this setup in normal situations – it’s very hard to get a tandem to track stand after all .

A wise man once said to me (or was it Tim of this parish?  ;)) : "no, it will front wheel skid instead, which is really no better". I can now testify this is correct, in both respects!

I would not be at all happy piloting without control of both front and rear brakes. You simply cannot modulate the ratio between the wheels if different people are controlling each.

Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #21 on: 14 March, 2010, 07:58:43 pm »
On my old racing tandem I controlled the brakes from the front, and the stoker was in charge of gears. On the tourer we ended up with two cantilevers from two lever on the front, and a drum brake operated by a friction gear lever, also on the front. The gears were bar-end levers...also on the front.

Chris S

Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #22 on: 23 November, 2012, 09:14:43 am »
* bump *

The virtues of three separate braking systems was explained to us by the good folk at Longstaffs, who have tales of failed brakes on descents that have ended up in deaths  :-\.

They in no way pressured us to have more - and we took delivery of the new bike with customary front/back brake only combo (Cantis at the front, Disc at the back), these both controlled by me at the front.

The bike has mounts at the back for a twin set of V/Canti brakes. When the bike goes in for its 2000km service later in December, we'll get them to populate these and connect them up to Rx-5.0s on the stoker bars. This will give us back-up braking should something fail.

The understanding in a tandem team is that the stoker won't deploy the brakes uncommanded. I think this might be a source of angst for my stoker as there has been a couple of occasions when I've braked later than she was comfortable with; and the temptation must be there to step in and "help".

I do like the idea of a third braking system though. The thought of a runaway tandem on a steep twisty/turny descent just doesn't bear thinking about. It doesn't have to be dramatic - a snapped cable is enough to lose you all rear braking - and I don't think I could arresto-momentum with just the front cantis.

Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #23 on: 23 November, 2012, 09:33:20 am »


The understanding in a tandem team is that the stoker won't deploy the brakes uncommanded.


Hahahaahahahaha. Lolz.  The way I always understood it was that the stoker won't deploy the brake unless cacking themselves at a speed way above what they would descend on solo.  When we moved from the Dawes to the Santana Andy took away the stoker brake and had all 3 controls at the front*  :'(

*3 hands not required - one was on a gear shift type which could be left on (parking brake type).  He frequently forgot to take it off when setting off - Devil's Staircase with parking brake on =  >:( >:( >:(

marcusjb

  • Full of bon courage.
Re: Tandem Braking
« Reply #24 on: 23 November, 2012, 09:37:14 am »
Having been on stupidly long, stupidly fast descents on the continent this year, I am thankful we have a third brake (V-brake which is stoker operated).  We got pretty good at scrubbing speed where required using the third brake (I think the whole 'don't put the brake on unless I say' thing is very important - Cass did it a couple of times when I didn't ask for it and it's pretty un-nerving.  I'd rather just be told to slow it down a bit than to suddenly find the bike is doing things I wasn't expecting (at 70+kph)).

We'd use the third brake to scrub speed off if things were getting a little rapid and then I would use the 2 main brakes as per normal as we approached a hairpin to bring the speed down quickly.  We don't use any of the brakes as drag-brakes and are quite comfortable with letting the speed build up and then scrubbing some of it off with a quick squeeze of the third brake before letting it build up again.  So we're only ever applying the brakes for short, hard periods - whether this is the best way I don't know, but it works for us!

As Chris says, a snapped cable with only 2 brakes could be very life-shortening on a tandem - so there's certainly security there with 3.

Right! What's next?

Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!