I've never watched Star Wars.

[citoyen]

See Citoyen's post above to understand why

I really shouldn't encourage you, but as callbacks go, it was a good one.

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

Is this a YACF vendetta?  Not exactly 'The Godfather' is it..

[HTFB]

It gets worse. We also watched the Ralph Bakshi version of 'Lord Of The Rings'. As I recall, he had no interest in LoTR before then. Animation, particularly stop-motion animation, was his interest.

Apparently Bakshi was interested in Tolkien before producing his animated version, but you'd never have guessed. A truly agonising film, and I say that having watched it with members of the Taruithorn Smial of the Tolkien Society.

Jackson's LOTR, by contrast, is full of evidence that he consulted closely with the mainstream of hobbit-heads. Mrcharly couldn't be more wrong. The sets, costumes, and pointy ears are all perfectly in line with how Tolkien illustrators (it's a career) had been working¹. And the scale and focus of the storytelling was just how the fans would have wanted it. The films are far too long, but the real fans of course didn't mind.

And once the films came out the people who enjoyed them are now the real fans. There's a very little bit more room for snobbery among Tolkien nuts, about the books and the other books and the Silmarillion and the Christopher Tolkien editions of JRR Tolkien's papers and so on, than there is for snobbery about the original Star Wars trilogy, but it shouldn't be indulged.

The Hobbit films, though: I went to see the first one on Boxing Day, and came out of the cinema in about the second week of January...

1. Tolkien was a fairly competent illustrator, in a stylised way, but his own pictures aren't what the fans are used to, and so Jackson doesn't go that way.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I have no complaints about the sets or costumes.

I have plenty of complaints about the gratuitous massive extending of the story, adding in ridiculous story arcs (elf falls in love with dwarf, dwarf dies, elf pines). Etc, etc, etc. Rubbish, bollocks padding and distortion.

[Mr Larrington]

I read Andrew's quote to mean that Jackson had no interest in what Dr Davis is wont to call "Hobbity-nonse" until being dragged to the flicks at a tender age.

My chum Esquire once opined that the LOTR films would have been better if the book had never been written.

[Exit Stage Left]

It often surprises me that we have to scratch around for fiction, when the actual history is so interesting. An example would be Thorkell the Tall, a member of an elite warrior band, who changes sides between the Saxons and Danes a couple of times, and whose daughter 'Edith the Fair' becomes the 'wife' of Harold Godwinson and perhaps founds the shrine at Walsingham.
Arguing about the film treatment of fiction strikes me as odd.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorkell_the_Tall
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2015/06/26/was-walsingham-founded-by-the-last-queen-of-anglo-saxon-england/

[Mr Larrington]

I am disappointed that she was Edith rather than Matilda.

[clarion]

I liked the Rotoscoping of Bakshi's version.  I was very surprised, though, when we were left high and dry in the middle of the story.

The artwork didn't bother me. Since Tolkien plagiarised almost everything from William Morris, who was consciously writing in the manner of saga and romance anyway, staying faithful to old lightfingers' vision is of low importance for me.

And, yes, that does make me one step more snooty than the most obsessive Tolkien snob, but I really don't care. At least Morris was happy to dwell in the imagined realms of Norse mythology, and not try to bend everything to an Inklings-eye view of Christianity.  There.  I said it.

[Andrew]

I read Andrew's quote to mean that Jackson had no interest in what Dr Davis is wont to call "Hobbity-nonse" until being dragged to the flicks at a tender age.

Yes, that's what I meant though I do acknowledge the ambiguity.

Jackson was, at that point, interested in the work Ray Harryhausen, Willis O'Brien et al. So for hobbity-nonse, you could read 'Sinbad-ness' or 'cyclops-obsurdity'. Outside of stop motion animation, James Bond films were of interest. Literature wise, I recall he read Forest J Ackerman and various film and fantasy type mags.

[citoyen]

I liked the Rotoscoping of Bakshi's version.  I was very surprised, though, when we were left high and dry in the middle of the story.

I once worked on a book about the history of animation with a chapter on Ralph Bakshi, and it went into some depth about the story behind the making of LotR. I don't recall much of the detail now but I remember finding it fascinating. I think the reason it was cut short was essentially that he went massively over budget and the studio refused to give him any more money.

I remember quite liking the film as a kid, even though it was messy and confusing. Rotoscoping is still a pretty darn cool technique when done well, though CGI is no doubt cheaper and easier these days.

[Exit Stage Left]

Star Wars has been re-imagined as an Icelandic Saga, so you we can access the plot without straying into the second Millennium.
https://tattuinardoelasaga.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/tattuinardoela-saga-if-star-wars-were-an-icelandic-saga/

[HTFB]

VG. Of course, Tolkien would have known of that manuscript, and published the first English translation into metrical verse, too.

[Mr Larrington]

Star Wars has been re-imagined as an Icelandic Saga, so you we can access the plot without straying into the second Millennium.
https://tattuinardoelasaga.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/tattuinardoela-saga-if-star-wars-were-an-icelandic-saga/

Damn.  That's blown Dr Larrington's next book project out of the water

[Exit Stage Left]

I see Zoe Williams has succumbed to the Dark Side, and done a Star Wars piece in the Guardian.

Nonetheless, in the quiddity of the Jedi you can see a director who was alive to the change in the political culture and its profound but rarely discussed shifts. If only Lucas could have carried on for ever, we might have been able to carry on using this franchise to plot the changing century. I get the sense with JJ Abrams that he’s mainly interested in people jumping off vehicles that are still moving.

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/dec/17/why-star-wars-is-a-political-force-to-be-reckoned-with

[citoyen]

I see Zoe Williams has succumbed to the Dark Side, and done a Star Wars piece in the Guardian.

Bearing in mind that the piece deals with revisionism, it's funny that 'Star Wars' is consistently referred to throughout as 'A New Hope' - wonder if Zoe originally wrote it  that way or if it's a case of hypercorrection by the subs.

'A New Hope' is a terrible name for any film, never mind an action adventure in space. I can't imagine how excited the 7yo me would have been to see it if they'd called it that when it first came out.

At least it's not referred to in the piece as 'Star Wars Epidode IV: A New Hope', which for sheer syllable count alone is even worse.

[Exit Stage Left]

It's probably more the case that if you were ten when the first prequel came out, and the first film was renamed, you'll now be 25. 'Star Wars' to them means the franchise, while to me it's Reagan's Strategic Defence Initiative.

[Kim]

I remember as a kid wondering whether Regan was planning to build a Death Star.

[Exit Stage Left]

I remember as a kid wondering whether Regan was planning to build a Death Star.

it would certainly have brightened up the plot of 'The Sweeney'.

[citoyen]

It's probably more the case that if you were ten when the first prequel came out, and the first film was renamed, you'll now be 25. 'Star Wars' to them means the franchise, while to me it's Reagan's Strategic Defence Initiative.

Zoe Williams is only a few months younger than me (somewhat older than 25). I bet you any money she doesn't think of that film as 'A New Hope'.

[citoyen]

Edit: Glitch in the matrix

[Mr Larrington]

I remember as a kid wondering whether Regan was planning to build a Death Star.

it would certainly have brightened up the plot of 'The Sweeney'.

Darth Vader: Impressive. Most impressive. Obi-Wan has taught you well. You have controlled your fear. Now, release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me.
Jack Regan: Shut it, you slag!
George Carter: Don't, guv!  'e's not worth it!

[Exit Stage Left]

Death Star! On my salary, your 'aving a larf!

[Mr Larrington]

And the famously deleted Death Star canteen scene:

Vader: Crrrch!  Who are you?
Regan: We're the sweeney, son, and we haven't had any dinner yet!

[mattc]

 

(Kim: stay away from the search engine - you still won't find any of this funny!)

[Exit Stage Left]

The Washington Post has a short video of 'Star Wars' as it might have been made by Ken Burns. Think 'The World at War' meets BBC4.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act-four/wp/2015/12/18/star-wars-if-it-were-directed-by-ken-burns/