Author Topic: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?  (Read 197824 times)

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #825 on: 10 May, 2018, 08:08:09 pm »
Quote
I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.

Thats what I'm sold on. Basically, everything we've been told about nutrition over the last forty years or so has been wrong, driven by commercial interests (and that includes the weightloss industry).

One of the attractions of the Keto diet for me is that there is no commercial edge. In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.

In fact it's a bit like riding fixed, which similarly offers an immediate release from the spiraling costs associated with modern fashions in bikes. My current steed dates from circa 1990...

Erm, if you've been to a shop recently you might have noticed that keto/low carb etc. is a hugely commercial proposition. Not to mention the books, blogs, and numerous other cash-ins. It's big money.

Advertising and availability have convinced people to eat too much crap food, that's true. Dietetic and nutritional advice has been consistent: eat a balanced diet, eat your greens, avoid processed food, watch your portion size, and do plenty of exercise. Sadly there's no money or commercial edge in that. No diet or fad that can be packaged up. No dubious and cherry-picked science. No zingy advertising. It's dull, sensible, works, and is probably the easiest 'diet' to adhere to.

Indeed, people love being told their bad habits are actually good for them.

Just when the feck did steak and eggs become a healthy breakfast? Since the beef is grass fed and the eggs are organic. ::-)

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #826 on: 10 May, 2018, 08:13:33 pm »
Quote
I'm saying that our supermarket habits have led us down an easy path to carb-overload, type-2 diabetes and obesity.

Thats what I'm sold on. Basically, everything we've been told about nutrition over the last forty years or so has been wrong, driven by commercial interests (and that includes the weightloss industry).

One of the attractions of the Keto diet is that there is no real commercial edge. In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.

In fact it's a bit like riding fixed. It's an immediate release from the spiraling costs associated with modern fashions in bikes. My current steed dates from circa 1990...

Intermittent Fasting scares thew shit out of the food industry.  Apart from a million books on the subject there's no money in people not eating food.

 :facepalm: I'll bet, the medical profession love it though.

More than the current obesity / diabetes / you-name-it epidemics which have been the outcome of populations eating high-carb diets? Seems unlikely...

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #827 on: 10 May, 2018, 08:17:56 pm »
In fact a very large part of the message is dump the junk and eat real and readily available food stuffs.

A lot of folk on plant-based diets would very much concur with that sentiment too of course [at least the ones on Leftpondian You Tube I've been listening too this week :-)] but they just choose to eat different 'real and readily available food stuffs'.

I'm very much on the terraces with this one, but a fascinating game it most definitely is Brian.

Carbs are the path to the dark side. Potatoes leads to chips, chips leads to a packet of crisps, a packet of crisps leads to another packet of crisps...

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #828 on: 10 May, 2018, 08:31:55 pm »
Quote
Reserch has shown that insulin spikes more from white mash with a tuna steak then the white mash on it's own -which is due to saturated fat which increases insulin resistence hence more insulin is induced which can lead to diabetes.

But wasn't it the white mash which caused the insulin spike in the first place? No white mash, no insulin spike.

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #829 on: 10 May, 2018, 10:33:56 pm »
Quote
Reserch has shown that insulin spikes more from white mash with a tuna steak then the white mash on it's own -which is due to saturated fat which increases insulin resistence hence more insulin is induced which can lead to diabetes.

But wasn't it the white mash which caused the insulin spike in the first place? No white mash, no insulin spike.

The tuna steak resulted in a higher spike, which lasted longer. A diet high in saturated fat is imo more unhealthy than one which is high carb.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #830 on: 10 May, 2018, 10:44:52 pm »
The tuna steak, which is recommended on diabetic diet websites because it is low carb, caused the insulin spike?

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #831 on: 10 May, 2018, 11:04:08 pm »
Protein, without fat is absorbed fairly rapidly and much is deaminated and converted to sugar...

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #832 on: 10 May, 2018, 11:50:36 pm »
Possibly true but LMT is saying the saturated fat in tuna causes the insulin spike..????  And if there is fat then the protein would not be processed quickly ??? Is it just me or does nine if this make sense?

simonp

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #833 on: 11 May, 2018, 07:01:09 am »
Possibly true but LMT is saying the saturated fat in tuna causes the insulin spike..????  And if there is fat then the protein would not be processed quickly ??? Is it just me or does nine if this make sense?

Many high protein foods have a higher insulin response per calorie consumed than high carb foods.

For instant beef and fish both have a higher insulin response than porridge.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_index

Note also that porridge also has a higher satiety score than beef.

The point about standard dietary advice would carry a bit more weight if the average western diet bore any resemblance to the recommended diet.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #834 on: 11 May, 2018, 07:15:34 am »
Fat in food reduces the rate of stomach emptying and food absorption, so that spreading a slice of bread with butter will give a lower sugar and insulin spike than eating it dry.

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #835 on: 11 May, 2018, 10:32:14 am »
The tuna steak, which is recommended on diabetic diet websites because it is low carb, caused the insulin spike?

With the greatest of respect you are being naïve if you don't think the meat and dairy industry don't lobby various government and non government agencies.

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #836 on: 11 May, 2018, 10:38:15 am »
Possibly true but LMT is saying the saturated fat in tuna causes the insulin spike..????  And if there is fat then the protein would not be processed quickly ??? Is it just me or does nine if this make sense?

One of the jobs of insulin is to act as a gatekeeper for cells to absorb sugar, sugar being any form of mono or disaccharide. Saturated fat can hinder this process ( a bit like chewing gum being stuck in the lock) so the absoprtion rate goes down and therefore more insulin is released. Not to mention that animal protein ain't a good thing for the body to metabolise.

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #837 on: 11 May, 2018, 10:41:42 am »
Possibly true but LMT is saying the saturated fat in tuna causes the insulin spike..????  And if there is fat then the protein would not be processed quickly ??? Is it just me or does nine if this make sense?

Many high protein foods have a higher insulin response per calorie consumed than high carb foods.

For instant beef and fish both have a higher insulin response than porridge.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_index

Note also that porridge also has a higher satiety score than beef.

The point about standard dietary advice would carry a bit more weight if the average western diet bore any resemblance to the recommended diet.

Indeed, it's been shown that whey protein has the same insulin response as pure glucose. People are messing with their long term health eating this shite.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #838 on: 11 May, 2018, 10:47:22 am »
Possibly true but LMT is saying the saturated fat in tuna causes the insulin spike..????  And if there is fat then the protein would not be processed quickly ??? Is it just me or does nine if this make sense?

One of the jobs of insulin is to act as a gatekeeper for cells to absorb sugar, sugar being any form of mono or disaccharide. Saturated fat can hinder this process ( a bit like chewing gum being stuck in the lock) so the absoprtion rate goes down and therefore more insulin is released. Not to mention that animal protein ain't a good thing for the body to metabolise.

???

I thought delayed absorption reduced insulin secretion.

David's diabetic dad found that modest quantities of ice cream did not raise his blood sugar much.

(Sainsbury's Soft Scoop spreads its sugar petty thin...)

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #839 on: 11 May, 2018, 05:02:27 pm »
LMT appears to speak from a vegetarian/vegan position rather than a neutral fact based position - the use of 'in my opinion' reflects the position exactly.

Lee seeking justification from antelope eating ancestors has ignored the likelihood that a hunter gatherer also gathers and may well subsist on berries, fruit vegetables and honey, with antelope being a rare treat. Plus antelope, in my experience, is usually pretty low in fat (as is tuna!)


Obviously, in the developed west we are able to easily eat far too much of everything and do far too little. Plus we are drawn to do this by ever more tempting treats and a self indulgent culture, encouraged, if not propagated, by the advertising industry. It may even be necessary for our economic model...

I am still waiting for a really solid, well peer reviewed and conclusive set of studies on optimal diet for what ever purpose. I can quite believe that it won't reflect what our ancestors ate, any more than it might entirely plant based. I am pretty confident that it won't include a lot of sugar or alcohol;)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #840 on: 11 May, 2018, 05:11:37 pm »
I am still waiting for a really solid, well peer reviewed and conclusive set of studies on optimal diet for what ever purpose. I can quite believe that it won't reflect what our ancestors ate, any more than it might entirely plant based. I am pretty confident that it won't include a lot of sugar or alcohol;)
In my opinion you will never see such a study (nor set of studies!); the reason being the range of our omnivourism (is that a real word?). Humans, their ancestors, and their various sub-tribes have lived in very varied environments. The eskimo-types living mostly on polar-bears and whale blubber being one example (that I'm sure has been talked about somewhere in these 34 pages!)

But I agree with you - refined sugar and alcohol would probably be absent!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #841 on: 11 May, 2018, 05:57:44 pm »
I am still waiting for a really solid, well peer reviewed and conclusive set of studies on optimal diet for what ever purpose. I can quite believe that it won't reflect what our ancestors ate, any more than it might entirely plant based. I am pretty confident that it won't include a lot of sugar or alcohol;)
In my opinion you will never see such a study (nor set of studies!); the reason being the range of our omnivourism (is that a real word?). Humans, their ancestors, and their various sub-tribes have lived in very varied environments. The eskimo-types living mostly on polar-bears and whale blubber being one example (that I'm sure has been talked about somewhere in these 34 pages!)

But I agree with you - refined sugar and alcohol would probably be absent!

:) It's interesting that the ability to adapt and live on a radically different diet has often been the key to survival for different human groups and individuals through the ages.

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #842 on: 11 May, 2018, 06:26:47 pm »
LMT appears to speak from a vegetarian/vegan position rather than a neutral fact based position - the use of 'in my opinion' reflects the position exactly.

Lee seeking justification from antelope eating ancestors has ignored the likelihood that a hunter gatherer also gathers and may well subsist on berries, fruit vegetables and honey, with antelope being a rare treat. Plus antelope, in my experience, is usually pretty low in fat (as is tuna!)


Obviously, in the developed west we are able to easily eat far too much of everything and do far too little. Plus we are drawn to do this by ever more tempting treats and a self indulgent culture, encouraged, if not propagated, by the advertising industry. It may even be necessary for our economic model...

I am still waiting for a really solid, well peer reviewed and conclusive set of studies on optimal diet for what ever purpose. I can quite believe that it won't reflect what our ancestors ate, any more than it might entirely plant based. I am pretty confident that it won't include a lot of sugar or alcohol;)

You won't find such a study for the reason that it is potentially immoral. Forcing someone to adher to a particular diet over a long period of time for studying when that person as a result of such study could develop ill health is morally wrong. It's very much why you'll never find a study which conclusively states as a fact that if you smoke you'll get cancer, because forcing someone to smoke (even though they do anyway) in an effort to see if they develop cancer is again morally wrong.

What you can do is to look at the many, many, many peer reviewed studies and come to your own conclusions. Look at what has been studied, who has carried it out and more importantly who funded it. The studies I've seen regarding the benefits of the meat, dairy and eggs will more often than not be funded by these very industries. And the people behind them, have they got your best interests at heart (pun intended) or are they trying to sell you something? You only need to look at the various health conventions held in the USA on obseity, from what I've seen there's always a big drug company sponsoring them. I recall looking at the agenda of one of these conventions and one of the workshops was how to keep the patient coming back! Not how to heal them or stop them from being sick, how to have the coming back. Obesity and diabetes is big business in the USA, with the medical profession trying to cure rather than prevent. Rather cycnical for sure but it is what it is.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #843 on: 12 May, 2018, 08:20:56 pm »
You won't find such a study for the reason that it is potentially immoral.

No, it is not immoral, necessarily.  this is the difference between epidemiological studies and research.  Epidemiological studies look at groups of people either at a point in time or over a period of time and try to compare groups who are separated only by one factor.  However if there is a factor of which you are unaware then the groups will give misleading results.

Research takes 1 group of people and randomly allocates them to a number of groups, usually 2 but can be more.  One of the groups will always be worse but so long as at the start you are uncertain about which group then it is morally acceptable to randomise people.  The technical name is equipoise.

I see this routinely where a trial I am running has been assessed by funding groups, ethics committees and approved. Then one surgeon turns round and says that he or she will not enrol a patient because the alternate treatment is obviously inferior. AAAAARgh. You are an idiot who does not know the literature!!

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #844 on: 12 May, 2018, 09:36:50 pm »
It's very much why you'll never find a study which conclusively states as a fact that if you smoke you'll get cancer, because forcing someone to smoke (even though they do anyway) in an effort to see if they develop cancer is again morally wrong.

No, the reason you won't find a study which states that as a fact is because it's not a fact.

Studying something doesn't have to involve creating the conditions you are studying (forcing people to do something) just like studying the motion of the planets doesn't require launching some planets into space.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

ian

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #845 on: 14 May, 2018, 11:50:56 am »
LMT appears to speak from a vegetarian/vegan position rather than a neutral fact based position - the use of 'in my opinion' reflects the position exactly.

Lee seeking justification from antelope eating ancestors has ignored the likelihood that a hunter gatherer also gathers and may well subsist on berries, fruit vegetables and honey, with antelope being a rare treat. Plus antelope, in my experience, is usually pretty low in fat (as is tuna!)


Obviously, in the developed west we are able to easily eat far too much of everything and do far too little. Plus we are drawn to do this by ever more tempting treats and a self indulgent culture, encouraged, if not propagated, by the advertising industry. It may even be necessary for our economic model...

I am still waiting for a really solid, well peer reviewed and conclusive set of studies on optimal diet for what ever purpose. I can quite believe that it won't reflect what our ancestors ate, any more than it might entirely plant based. I am pretty confident that it won't include a lot of sugar or alcohol;)

There are many studies and a near complete scientific consensus on a optimal diet. It's the 'eat-your-greens-and-do-some-exercise' one I mentioned earlier. Of course, there's no money or hype in common sense.

Humans never ate much meat, until the debut of the supermarket it was difficult to obtain (given its tendency to run away). As such, we are not especially good at handling large amounts of dietary protein, unlike obligate carnivores who not only can digest large amounts of animal protein, but have a lifestyle suited to the calorific requirements of chasing and catching that protein. We're wide-spectrum omnivores, and as such most humans since the dawn of time have likely received the majority of their calories from carbohydrates. Human civilisation is a corollary for our being able to farm and produce sufficient carbohydrate without the limits of our peripatetic gathering lifestyle.

Modern life, of course, brings with it (for those of us in the developed world at least) a surfeit of easily absorbed calories and often a sedentary existence. Dietary revisionism is non-sensical, we eat too much and do too little. Demonising food groups (fat, carbohydrate etc.) might be appealing, but again, it doesn't make a lot of scientific sense. It's an inviting reductionism.

Its also often said we've evolved to do this and that. We don't evolve to do anything. We didn't evolve to eat meat or carbohydrate. Evolution isn't active or directional. If anything, humans have been successful because of their dietary flexibility – we don't have to survive solely on meat, or bamboo. We can generally do a reasonable job in digesting whatever is available.

Fat adaption/Ketosis
« Reply #846 on: 22 November, 2018, 04:46:19 pm »
My riding really changed the day I found out about this, So when fully adapted I rode the Tour of flanders - 226km and did this fasted and can not emphasise just how good it is. Does anyone have their experiences of this ?

I can not recommend it highly enough as no need for crappy processed gels etc and no upset stomach I used to get !

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Fat adaption/Ketosis
« Reply #847 on: 22 November, 2018, 04:50:11 pm »
There are but 34 pages of posts... https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=67736.0

The Movers

  • We just work here
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #848 on: 22 November, 2018, 04:58:59 pm »
Topics merged to reduce tedium

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #849 on: 22 November, 2018, 05:17:27 pm »
ah sorry never saw this and can see the usual debates as well ....

On studies in general most you see regarding food are false, they are based on recall diaries and asking people what they eat over the past month, you try that ? and then you lie about the junk ... the only true food study would be a RCT with hundreds of people locked up on metabolic wards, fed tightly controlled food of different sorts and exercise measured.

As you can imagine that is almost impossible to do though the FASTER study did some but based on 6 weeks, for food that is not enough.

So I base it not on studies but the science and especially how we metabolise fat, carbs and proteins

and most studies are then biased it seems nowadays by the influence of big food and veganism