I am not a vegan...

[Ruth]

I have quite often cooked veggie when having friends round. Simply because some veggie food is just nicer, and that's what I fancied myself that day. Although I don't really do formal.

[Gandalf]

Ben, do you think that Muslims in a town that hasn't a mosque should just Christian-up and attend a church instead?  You seem to have missed the point that, for whatever reason, vegetarianism is a thought-out position.  Eating meat violates that.  Nothing violates a meat-eater's position, except possibly some of your arguments.  This is not to say that vegetarians are "right" and animal-eaters "wrong".  Plenty of the latter have thought about the options and either stayed or reverted to their position.  Nevertheless, it is, like many other attitudes, a default poaition in society at large and it needs challenging.

Yebbut we are only being 'fussy' apparently

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

The way Ben's going on, you'd think meat-eaters never ate cheese sandwiches, or beans on toast, or crudités and hummus, or wild mushroom risotto with truffle oil, or ice-cream, or ratatouille.

[Valiant]

^^ All of that is better with some shredded ham :p

[Valiant]

With places like Weatherspoons, the meat dishes tend to taste better than the veggie dishes. If the veggie dishes tasted as good I'd be all up in that mutha. If i ran a place it'd be veggie/vegan by default finished off with meat or cheese if preferred.

[Gandalf]

Interestingly,well for me anyway,is that despite the unassailable difficulties which beset the poor caterer, there are some that manage. 

In terms of dining out, I think it is fair to say that more often than not, we're talking ubiquitous chains, such as Wetherspoons, Harvester, Brewer's Fayre et al. Before I was vegan, the default venue for Aunty Maud's birthday would be the local Harvester, not a vast vegetarian choice but you could get something.  When I became vegan seven years ago, the Harvester was no longer viable, due to their sod all for vegans policy.  I realise that my family ditching them won't exactly cause the share price to collapse, but every little helps.

Nowadays if I find myself being frogmarched to some dire family gathering, we end up at the Toby Carvery.  Admittedly it's like walking onto the set of 'Silent Witness' with different species substituted for the human cadavers, but they do offer two vegan main courses. No starters or desserts yet but it's a start.

[Woofage]

Slightly related to this topic: Costa will make (hot) drinks with soya milk in place of cow's milk if you ask. Mrs W has a slight intolerance to dairy so that's where we usually go. Shame more establishments don't offer this option.

[Julian]

Most of the chain coffee shops do!  In London, anyway, not tried to get one anywhere else.  Pret, Starbucks, Nero, Eat and the tragic hipster coffee shops all offer soya milk hot drinks.  I tend to gravitate to Pret because they use organic cow juice which has some minimum welfare standards for the cows.

[Woofage]

Most of the chain coffee shops do!  In London, anyway, not tried to get one anywhere else.  Pret, Starbucks, Nero, Eat and the tragic hipster coffee shops all offer soya milk hot drinks.  I tend to gravitate to Pret because they use organic cow juice which has some minimum welfare standards for the cows.

Thanks for the info. We don't have a Pret nor an Eat here and I refuse to go into Starbucks. I think there's a Nero but, if it's the place I'm thinking of, I've never thought it looks that inviting.

[pcolbeck]

I would have thought soya milk was an unethical choice what with them cutting down the Amazon to grow it the US and Candian's using GM soya.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I would have thought soya milk was an unethical choice what with them cutting down the Amazon to grow it the US and Candian's using GM soya.

But those are your ethics! Woofage's are, presumably, different. I drink tea black myself, but that's a taste choice not an ethical one.

[red marley]

It will depend in part on the brand. One of the more common is Provamel (which is what I use), which claims to source its soya from "small farmers who farm organically, away from rainforest areas and without the use of chemical and artificial fertilisers". Of course, they wouldn't say otherwise, but soya for beef farming does not necessarily work its way into the soya milk supply chain. The net effect of reducing the dependency on cattle (both dairy and beef) is likely to be much more environmentally beneficial than costly.

[L CC]

It will depend in part on the brand. One of the more common is Provamel (which is what I use), which claims to source its soya from "small farmers who farm organically, away from rainforest areas and without the use of chemical and artificial fertilisers". Of course, they wouldn't say otherwise, but soya for beef farming does not necessarily work its way into the soya milk supply chain. The net effect of reducing the dependency on cattle (both dairy and beef) is likely to be much more environmentally beneficial than costly.

Cattle don't eat much soya, they don't need much vegetable protein, getting theirs from the action of bacteria in the rumen. The soya is for all the pigs, who being possessed of a different digestive tract, need more protein, and we, squeamishly (and sensibly, tbh) prefer them to get it from plant sources.
The expansion of soya markets is driven (at least in part) by a rise in affluence in China, where because they can afford it, they are eating much more meat, and much of that is pork.
The food miles are the killer. Local beef is fine. Argentinian, less so. Your Peruvian butternut squash isn't doing so well either, nor my lovely Kenyan green beans, but I get pretty tired of cabbage with my bacon.

[Woofage]

I would have thought soya milk was an unethical choice what with them cutting down the Amazon to grow it the US and Candian's using GM soya.

It's not an ethical choice but a dietary one.

I know two wrongs don't make a right but if a farmer does acquire land due to deforestation then growing vegetables can feed more people than keeping livestock.

[geraldc]

Re food miles, I thought for meat, it wasn't so bad, as the dead animals coming from overseas are in big freighters and that works out quite economical. It's the veg that's flown in by plane that's bad.

[Charlotte]

Now come on Julian you're spoiling a perfectly good argument by actually knowing what you're talking about.  That's simply not fair!

It's a tactic she employs on me on an almost daily basis, Tewders... 

Slightly related to this topic: Costa will make (hot) drinks with soya milk in place of cow's milk if you ask. Mrs W has a slight intolerance to dairy so that's where we usually go. Shame more establishments don't offer this option.

Despite being a vegetarian rather than a vegan - and mainly because high-street coffee chains only serve their lattes in bucket-multiples rather than the usual cup sizes I prefer, I will usually opt for a soy milk latte.

If you're going to drink upwards of 350ml of latte (and if I'm served with it, I usually finish it) then for some reason, soy milk is much more palatable to me in those quantities.

Given enough of this shameful behaviour, eventually I'm going to finish off the last carton of Provamel - thereby depriving some poor vegan of his morning coffee 

[ian]

^^ All of that is better with some shredded ham :p

A recent trip to the US reminded me that bacon is the universal seasoning. In the deep south they put bacon bits on their bacon. Then coat it with more bacon and deep fry in bacon fat and serve with a side of bacon. Every vegetable has to be served with bacon. Sometimes the bacon just pushes the veg off the plate when you're not paying attention. Surely there was a lonely spinach leaf on my plate? No sirree, says the bacon, just us little piggies.

I gave up with being a vegetarian because the selection was boring and everywhere I went I was the special needs food boy destined to have that single item on the menu. I'm happy to eat food without meat, it's just that the standard of veggie catering is dull. It's the land of an endless ankle-deep trudge through monochrome paddies of mushroom risotto. There's the deep-fried goats cheese and cranberry sauce. There's goats cheese everywhere. Vegetarians are used to dispose of goats cheese. Once they're full, they drop them in a deep sea trench or seal underground for the next couple of millennia until they're safe. It's a conspiracy I tell you. Pasta sauces that are a vague red sludge that might be some byproduct from a long-banned industrial process capable of wiping out entire aquatic ecosystems. Curries where the veg are so stewed that they may have started the cooking during the Raj. Certainly that was when the spices could have last passed for fresh.

Then there's cheese. Like any self-respecting man, my happiness is generally assured through the possession of a block of a cheddar the size of the car battery. But after a couple of years, even cheese starts to get a bit tired, and that's putting a major disrespect on the cheese. Every sandwich is cheese. If you're lucky, there's humus, and hell after fifteen thousand cheese sandwiches it sounds good. Until you realise you're chewing through a sandwich that appears to be filled with clay. And oh look, they put some cream cheese in it. That's not the end of it, two hours later you'll fart yourself into a low Earth orbit and leave behind the kind of smell that causes Mother Nature to unfriend you. Even gravity won't welcome you back.

[clarion]

Strange.  One of the reasons I liked going veggie was because of how boring meals are when they're. 'meat and something'.

[Martin]

^^ All of that is better with some shredded ham :p

A recent trip to the US reminded me that bacon is the universal seasoning

+1; I was astounded that simple vegetarian baked beans have to be positively sought out, in Michigan neither Costco nor WalMart stocked them; some little drug mart whose name escapes me was the only place;

I also stared long and hard at the menu of Taco Bell before giving up & going in search of Filet o Fish

[red marley]

I find the ease with which vegetarianism is catered for in the US hugely variable.

Dead easy: Sacramento, San Francisco, New York and Seattle (vegan food also pretty plentiful)
Surprisingly easy if you find the right bit of town: Salt Lake and Columbus (OH)
Unexpectedly hard: Providence (RI)
Downright impossible: Atlantic City

I also don't mind the novelty of crappy road trip fast food in small doses and Denny's and Taco Bell have kept me going for many miles.

[Tewdric]

Strange.  One of the reasons I liked going veggie was because of how boring meals are when they're. 'meat and something'.

Surely better than just the "something"? 

[clarion]

You misunderstand vegetarian cookery completely.  It's a common mistake for habitual meat eaters to make.

[Tewdric]

You misunderstand vegetarian cookery completely.  It's a common mistake for habitual meat eaters to make.

Give me a few examples of really accomplished vegetarian cookery that you suppose I haven't experienced then?

[CrinklyLion]

And maybe look at the smiley, and the fact that a lot of the discussion in the thread is about the fact that as a vegetarian you are undoubtedly familiar with the 'meat and something with the meat taken away' menu item? 

At least, that was the context I read it in Tewdric, hope that was how it was intended - made oi larf!

[teethgrinder]

I just don't get it. Do people really feel the need for meat so badly?

I do.

I think a lot of that is to do with that I have a very lazy attitude to cooking.
I do like good veggie food and am happy to go without meat. But after a while I will start to crave to eat some dead animal.

Interestingly, the British Army thought very hard about nutrition for their soldiers in Iraq and decided that pork was the best thing for them to eat. At the time I was doing a lot of miles and was getting cravings for pork, so was eating about 2 kilos a week.

The soldiers had to re-think their diet because they were doing peace keeping in a Muslim country...


I reckon if I was more interested in cooking then I could possibly become a veggie. But putting a bit of dead animal in my oven for a few hours takes not much more than zero effort and I can do other stuff instead.
Perhaps if decent veggie food was much more readily available in places like Wetherspoons, then I'd be more vegetarian than I am now.