High Entry Fees

[y lee g]

Just seen this - Etape Caledonia

£54 FFS!!      

Granted, unlike on an audax you can (safely?) ride on teh wrong side of the closed roads if you wish but on the same date you can get a proper 200k bike ride from Forfar for a fraction of the cost.   

[slowfen]

As most participents proabably have only a little idea of the (including me) of how much time, energy and money is involved in organising an audax, the only ones who should be allowed to complain are the organisers.

And the non-organisers who complain shold be made to organise to a set standard (?El Supremo? ) for what they think is the acceptable fee!

[phil d]

Interesting that El Supremo's name should come up on this thread.  I recall a scathing letter in Arrivee a few years back from one D Hudson, berating those organisers who had the temerity to charge £5 or more for audax events.

I was interested to note that the Autumn Dungeewow (the first El Supremo event I'd ever entered) was priced at £10.  With a car park start, sports centre cafe finish (so no hall costs).  We didn't even get decent weather

Now I'm not complaining at all - Dave fed us from his van at one control, and we got enough "free" grease to sink a battleship at WoW (and that was just the beans on toast!).  And despite the appalling weather I actually quite enjoyed the event.  But I don't think Dave is quite the outstanding value I understand he used to be.

[phil d]

Just seen this - Etape Caledonia

£54 FFS!!      

Granted, unlike on an audax you can (safely?) ride on teh wrong side of the closed roads if you wish but on the same date you can get a proper 200k bike ride from Forfar for a fraction of the cost.   

I think that it is perhaps a bit unfair to compare audax and sportives in this way.  I've only ever done one sportive (Wicklow 200 about three years ago), and it was in many ways very different from an audax.  With the number of entrants, it needed a seriously large starting and finishing venue with lots of people.  We all had timing chips strapped to our bikes.  The route was signed all the way round (only paint on the road, but someone had to do it.  I've seen other sportive routes with proper signing).  There were several mechanics patrolling the route in vans, and a broomwagon or two.  There was masses of food (fruit, cake, sandwiches, drink) and quite a few marshalls at each of the controls and key junctions.  And a barbeque at the end.

While I didn't need the mechanics or the broomwagon, nor was I particularly interested in knowing my finish time to 2 places of decimals, they were there, and cost money to provide.  I had no complaints about the price, which I think was about Euro50.  They probably made a good profit, but I would guess that the risk of loss is high.

I'm not sure it compares unfavourably with (for instance) the Upper Thames, where the hall cost £70 for the day, I provide very little at the start, and nothing at all at the first two controls.  Hot drink and some cake at the third (unless you get there before the cafe closes), and some more substantial home-made food at the end.  No mechanics.  No broomwagon.  No marshalls (well, not quite true as there were some helpers at the third control).  No signs.  No electronic timing.  £5.

[Noodley]

Just seen this - Etape Caledonia

£54 FFS!!      

Granted, unlike on an audax you can (safely?) ride on teh wrong side of the closed roads if you wish but on the same date you can get a proper 200k bike ride from Forfar for a fraction of the cost.   

Yep, I go to spin class in Forfar and there are a few there doing the Etape Caledonia. 

They asked if I was doing it and I replied no, firstly cos of the price and secondly due to doing the Deeside Loop.  Since they found out what the Deeside Loop was I have not heard much more from them about their "BIG ENDURANCE EVENT" which they seemed to think they were riding 

[frere yacker]

Looked at through the eyes of an organiser, the question is more whether events are financially viable.  Particularly events of 300km or more, where it is not unusual to see fields struggle to get into double figures.  Looking at the number of brevets validated on the AUK website highlights why it is sensible to run a 100km ride alongside longer distances.

[BlackSheep]

The answer is:

Basic entry fee:  £1
With hall: add £3 for each hall hired
With sleeping facilities: add £2
Add £1 per 100km
Add £2 for each (free) catered control

Hope that helps.  FY.

An interesting concept, and I'm not knocking it - this gives potential "new organisers" some form of a  target to aim for.

I think the problem lies with the niche events.
Using FR's formula, I would look at charging £29 for the Bryan Chapman rides.
This would probably reduce the field to a couple of dozen. So I would have about
£700 to play with. Not enough to hire the halls and YHA - all of which I have to pay "up-front".

On the other side of the coin, the tariff for a 200k event - arguably the most popular "long distance" event with 3 non commercial controls would attract an entry fee of (typically) £12.

And a typical BP event would attract an entry fee of £11.

Personally I think more than £5 for a 200km BR or £3.50 for a BP is a bit OTT.

Some of the best 200s I've ridden have only cost £3.50. It's down to the skill of the organiser.

I think the moral (if there is one) is "do it for the cyclists", or a la Field of Dreams "Build it, and they will come".


Now I will retreat to a safe patch on the farmstead - little wonder I'm a blacksheep.

[John M]

Hi interesting comments...
Can you advise the number of riders you get at your events.
thanks
John M

[BlackSheep]

Hi interesting comments...
Can you advise the number of riders you get at your events.
thanks
John M

According to te AUK website, there were 74 finishers on this year's BC600s.

As for the events I'm running next year? - who knows.

[Martin]

Interesting that El Supremo's name should come up on this thread.  I recall a scathing letter in Arrivee a few years back from one D Hudson, berating those organisers who had the temerity to charge £5 or more for audax events.

I was interested to note that the Autumn Dungeewow (the first El Supremo event I'd ever entered) was priced at £10.  With a car park start, sports centre cafe finish (so no hall costs).  We didn't even get decent weather

Now I'm not complaining at all -

TBF the food you get at the WoW is usually worth the £10 on its own; I think this is where most of the entry goes on these events; his normal entry fee is much less; remember his Tea Bag events of 2006 at £1 a pop where you still got free tea and biscuits?. He only ever charged me £1 a head when he did the catering for my event; economies of scale I suppose.

I need 23 entries to make my event pay for the hall hire; anything above that increases the food provided per rider; any extras for my helpers come from either a large field or a lot of DNS's. Anyone who charges £5 or more and pays for neither food or hall hire would make me wonder a bit.... but I'd still enter.

[Mr Larrington]

TBF the food you get at the WoW is usually worth the £10 on its own;

Though if one is one of the Slow Children, by the time one gets to the average El S control, hungry-guts speed merchants have scoffed all the best bits, especially the corned beef sarnies chiz.

[frere yacker]

Don't forget the £10 entry for Dave's 200s usually include a meal at WoW in addition to the nosh from the back of his van.

El S did one of the "best value" rides I've ever done.  His Tea Bag events - £1 to enter.  His stated intention was originally to provide tea and biscuits, but in reality el S put on a mini feast around the route relying on donations from riders on the day to fund this.  When he realised that riders had donated generously, he then put on an extra "free" feed.  I think I managed to get around the 300km event spending around £3 in total 

[DanialW]

I'm quite lucky, in that my DIY routes generate a lot of cash. I ringfence this, so I don't really have to worry about financial constraints on my events. My Midlander events cost about £500 to put on last year, yet generated a mere £150 in entry fees. The DIYs made up the difference, though it took until October (and a profitable Autumn in the Pea) to bring my cycling account back into the black.

My Cambrian events in April will use only one hall, so I'll probably do what I've done before, and use the spare cash to subsidise teas and coffees (and maybe even cakes) at the commercial controls.

[frere yacker]

My Midlander events cost about £500 to put on last year, yet generated a mere £150 in entry fees.

I did wonder about that.  I was sad enough to browse through the number of validations for rides in 2007/8 (to get a feel for how much 100s are likely to subsidise longer events) and noticed you had a smallish entry field.  Excellent that the DIYs are subsidising these longer calendar events (or more particularly, that organisers like you are thoughtful enough to do this  )

[frankly frankie]

My Midlander events cost about £500 to put on last year, yet generated a mere £150 in entry fees. The DIYs made up the difference, though it took until October (and a profitable Autumn in the Pea) to bring my cycling account back into the black.

Blimey.  It's a good thing nobody runs the country like that. ;- )

[Mr Larrington]

ISTR Manotea saying he'd actually gained weight during an El Supremo 400

[Manotea]

ISTR Manotea saying he'd actually gained weight during an El Supremo 400

I definately recall leaving an El Supremo control stuffed silly and berating myself for gluttony... and later on regretting not eating even more!

[hellymedic]

TBF the food you get at the WoW is usually worth the £10 on its own;

Though if one is one of the Slow Children, by the time one gets to the average El S control, hungry-guts speed merchants have scoffed all the best bits, especially the corned beef sarnies chiz.

BTDT NoTS.
A very long time ago, on a hot day, I reached an ES control atop a Big Hill. There was little remaining sustenance and being in the Middle of Nowhere, no commercial alternative. I was Not Happy and had to walk down Big(nor) Hill as it was too gravelly for me to trust the traction.

[mattc]

Though if one is one of the Slow Children, by the time one gets to the average El S control, hungry-guts speed merchants have scoffed all the best bits, especially the corned beef sarnies chiz.

BTDT NoTS.
A very long time ago, on a hot day, I reached an ES control atop a Big Hill. There was little remaining sustenance and being in the Middle of Nowhere, no commercial alternative. I was Not Happy ...

This is a common problem on many events I have ridden. It is also about the only 'beef' I have with some organisers. I wonder if the "Slow Children" should hatch a plan to control the appetites of the Speedy Gannets.

Perhaps setting off a few minutes late, so as to attach clamps to the cars of suspected Speedy Gannets? Release Fee dependent on:
- how much food left for the Lanterne Rouges
- how many beds/sofas left for LRs to use at Sleep Stop
- how much noise made when leaving Sleep Stop, seconds after the LRs nod off.


p.s. only ridden one El S event - shit weather, excellent nosh.

[Rob]

I was lucky when I organised that it was a CTC DA event and they would take up the slack if there were ever any problems.   That said, I never made a loss, although got close a couple of times.

It all worked around the hall hire which was a big standing cost.   Once I had enough riders to cover that, I could then start to throw in free food.   I didn't decide how much of the food was free until a few days before when I knew how much cash I had to play with.   Before I quit, riders were entering later and later making the budgeting and planning process more and more difficult.

The other issue was that riders expected so much value for their 5-6 quid, seeming to forget the goodwill of the voluntary, hard working helpers who had often given up a nights sleep.   A large number of these people were riding 2 grands worth of titanium and carbon.  

[teethgrinder]

I spent about £450 on entry fees last season. That was for almost 100 events including PBP.
If I rode the BMB in America, that would have cost more than half of that in one go.
I don't think that AUK rides are really expensive in the grand scheme of things.
I'm pretty sure, with all things considered El Supremo makes a substantial loss from running his events.
It's not just the brevet cards and validation. There's the food to buy, wear and tear on his van and trailer, petrol money, food preperation and storage and the chairs and other furniture he carries in his mobile control. Phone calls, letters and the like to round up his helpers. His mailing lists to advertise his rides to potential riders. Route planning (He often does many different routes) and checking. It must be like a full time job.
I wouldn't really care if El Supremo and the like were creaming a few quid off my entry to line their pockets. To be honest, I think they deserve it.


It won't stop me whinging when the entry fees go up though
Being a tight git is traditional for cyclists, especially us fixers.

[Andrij]

Being a tight git is traditional for cyclists, especially us fixers.

Don't worry.  I'm sure one of these days you'll be able to afford multiple gears. 

[teethgrinder]

Being a tight git is traditional for cyclists, especially us fixers.

Don't worry.  I'm sure one of these days you'll be able to afford multiple gears. 

I'll have you know that my titanium mountain bike has 9 speed XT gears.
I'm just too tight to ride it and wear out all those expensive cassettes, chains and chainrings

[Martin]

TBF the food you get at the WoW is usually worth the £10 on its own;

Though if one is one of the Slow Children, by the time one gets to the average El S control, hungry-guts speed merchants have scoffed all the best bits, especially the corned beef sarnies chiz.

I meant the WoW as in the cafe; the 25 sarnies/ danish pastries/Lidl flapjacks and after dinner mints at Supremo's Streetside Scoffery are extra.

My first Supremo moment was actually on Pam's 200; I felt quite guilty at having faced down 3 Apricot Danish in less time than it took my tyre to go down straight afterwards; I needn't have

[DanialW]

(or more particularly, that organisers like you are thoughtful enough to do this  )

It's very kind of you to say so, but thoughtful wouldn't be one of the adjectives I'd use to describe my planning for The Midlander.

Having said that though, I think I'm rightly proud of it as a pair of routes. They'll run for certain in 2009 and I'll see how it goes after that. Whilst there's nothing wrong with pampering riders, If I can put the DIY money to better use, i.e. to benefit a greater number of riders, then I'll do that.