Brest Control Closing Time, possible discrepancy

[zacklaws]

To take my mind of things, I was doing a bit of planning tonight rather than later if I do decide to ride last minute and noticed a discrepancy with the Brest Control closing time.

I'm in Group J with an 18:15 start, based on the control closing at 09:49 on the 22nd Aug for the 17:30 starters, it makes my closing time 10:34.

But in 2015, when I set off with the same start time of 18:15 I arrived at Brest at 09:48 and in 20:19 at 09:43, there is no way that I would have had a sleep at Carhaix and cut the time so fine.

When I look at the documentation for 2019, the closing time for the 18:15 start time at Brest was 12:21 which is what I would have planned on that year and had a couple of hours in hand..

It seems somehow this year, if it is right, Brest control is closing two hours earlier than normal and their is only a 2 kilometre difference in distance which would not affect it by that much.

Perhaps their is an error somewhere in my calculations as I'm still suffering from covid brain fog, or ACP has an error with the timings. But, if it is correct, then that means all my plans based on the last two times will have to be amended.

Even CARHAIX-PLOUGUER seems to be closing early westbound this year (18:15 group) at 04:33 instead of 06:00 as in 2019.

But.....I am now beginning to think I read something somewhere that it is a "Faster out" more than normal and a lot "Slower back"  somewhere by someone else querying it, maybe on facebook.

[grams]

Interesting.

I’ve done some spreadsheet and the numbers given in the 2023 document do indeed indicate a minimum speed of 15 km/h all the way to Brest, and then 12-13 km/h back.

Comparing to 2019, the minimum speed was 15 km/h only for the first 217 km, then 14 km/h to Carhaix (return) then 12-13 km/h the rest of the way.

Oddly you get the same 48 hours and 4 minutes to get back to Carhaix both years.

[LateStarter]

That's quite a big change, for 2023 90h Brest closing +40h19 rather than +42h06 in 2019, it is of course now more like the normal 600km brevet closing time but I know a lot of slower riders who have relied on the extra to Brest as they say the controls can take extra time to get through even without queuing for bike parking, control, food, toilets and losing your bike in the dark among the 1000s that have arrived since you did etc. Only option is to sleep less outbound, a lot of sleepy riders will be arriving at Brest and if the closing time is enforced a lot of riders are not going to go on. A few people here would have been out of time at Brest in 2019 but finished with a few hours spare.

[grams]

A chart. The vertical axis is how far ahead of a strictly linear schedule closing times are - i.e compulsory “time in hand”.


Looks like we get about 30 minutes extra from Loudeac on the way back, though it means the final leg from Dreux is no longer so generous.

[iroiromono]

This timing aligns with the ACP rules on timing for BRM events. It seems for BRM AUK administers a linear max and min of 15kmph for events up to 600 and then 13.3kmph for BRM1000s
However proper BRM rules are different.
i.e. for a control on any control up to 600km on any distance BRM event the timing should be based on 15kmph, this includes for a BRM1000. The exceoption to this is if the control is in the first 60km where the min is 20kmph plus 1hr.

See article 10:

Additionally, riders must arrive at each checkpoint between the opening and closing time for the checkpoint and calculated as follows:
Opening: 34 km / h (km 1 to 200); 32 km / h (km 201 to 400); 30 km / h (km 401 to 600); 28 km / h (km 601 to 1000); commercial rounded by the minute.
Closing: 1 hour + 20 km / h (km 1 to 60); 15 km / h (km 61 to 600); 11.428 km / h (km 601 to 1000); commercial rounded by the minute.

[zacklaws]

Thanks for confirming it, before I post anything these days I have to double check everything over and over again to make sure it is not me making an error.

Basically, I now need to replan my schedules from the past to reduce the amount of "Fannying About" at controls Westward bound to save me 2 hours so that I can get my 2 hours sleep and still have 2 hours in hand at Brest. Or pedal faster.....and I doubt that will happen.

Its roughly 40 hours Westbound, 50 hours Eastbound.

Its odd they have never applied the proper BRM rules, 2015 and 2019

[vorsprung]

I am not Mr Fast but in 2011 I did Brest in 33h.  I had 15m sleep in the afternoon day two at the roadside.  Mind you they have a point.  If we can do BRM 600 in 40 hours - with sleep - then surely we can get to Brest in under 42h

In 2019 I was (I didn't know it at the time) carrying a summer cold and was pretty slow, stopping often

Not riding this time

[LittleWheelsandBig]

The prevailing wind at PBP is from the west. There aren't many 600 BRMs with a constant headwind.

[grams]

Not many 600s with an evening start, heaving controls and no Co-ops.

[Flâneur]

This timing aligns with the ACP rules on timing for BRM events. It seems for BRM AUK administers a linear max and min of 15kmph for events up to 600 and then 13.3kmph for BRM1000s
However proper BRM rules are different.
i.e. for a control on any control up to 600km on any distance BRM event the timing should be based on 15kmph, this includes for a BRM1000. The exceoption to this is if the control is in the first 60km where the min is 20kmph plus 1hr.

See article 10:

Additionally, riders must arrive at each checkpoint between the opening and closing time for the checkpoint and calculated as follows:
Opening: 34 km / h (km 1 to 200); 32 km / h (km 201 to 400); 30 km / h (km 401 to 600); 28 km / h (km 601 to 1000); commercial rounded by the minute.
Closing: 1 hour + 20 km / h (km 1 to 60); 15 km / h (km 61 to 600); 11.428 km / h (km 601 to 1000); commercial rounded by the minute.

Brest control is at km 604 on ACP's own figures so should fall under 11.428km/h on this basis. Then again, it's ACP's ball (as technically not under BRM due to distance and explicitly excluded from LRM auspices) so they can probably kick it whatever way they want.

[Wycombewheeler]

In 2019 there were 42 hours allowed to get to Brest, which I always thought was generous, because everyone on the ride should be capable of riding 600km in 40 hours.

But reducing that time limit may result in more people needing to sleep at Brest which could cause a problem.

[Wycombewheeler]

That's quite a big change, for 2023 90h Brest closing +40h19 rather than +42h06 in 2019, it is of course now more like the normal 600km brevet closing time but I know a lot of slower riders who have relied on the extra to Brest as they say the controls can take extra time to get through even without queuing for bike parking, control, food, toilets and losing your bike in the dark among the 1000s that have arrived since you did etc. Only option is to sleep less outbound, a lot of sleepy riders will be arriving at Brest and if the closing time is enforced a lot of riders are not going to go on. A few people here would have been out of time at Brest in 2019 but finished with a few hours spare.

They weren't enforced last time, despite dire warnings about control times must be respected.

I am not Mr Fast but in 2011 I did Brest in 33h.  I had 15m sleep in the afternoon day two at the roadside.  Mind you they have a point.  If we can do BRM 600 in 40 hours - with sleep - then surely we can get to Brest in under 42h

In 2019 I was (I didn't know it at the time) carrying a summer cold and was pretty slow, stopping often

Not riding this time

that's pretty fast, although mainly due to no sleep. I did Carhaix in 26 hours, and Brest in 38.

The prevailing wind at PBP is from the west. There aren't many 600 BRMs with a constant headwind.

I don't think there is any other 600 I have ridden where I have spent as much time following a wheel in a large group. this more than compensates for the wind. If there is a headwind and you are leaving a control alone, might be worth considering waiting for a group. Just make sure everyone in the group isn't from a much later starting wave than your own.

[zacklaws]

Having looked at it a bit more last week using my flight computer to do a simple time, speed and distance calculation instead of using Excel a part of it that I find odd is, it's a constant 15kph minimum speed to Brest, but on the return, minimum speed varies from control to control ranging from about 11kph to 14 kph. Not much of a difference but over a long period of time and distance, it is a bit of a big variation.

Basically to keep it simple, I'll just plan on 15kph minimum out and back and wait ti see what the Brevet card states.

[grams]

The gradient between dots on my graph above shows minimum speed. You can see how uneven they are in the second half.

If you treat the minimum speed back as a hair over 12.5 km/h you’ll hit all of closing times, tightest being Villaines. It’ll give you 28 spare minutes to finish.

[Zed43]

In a different forum I came across https://pbpcalc.com/

[LateStarter]

This seems like as good a spot as any?

For those riding PBP with recent Garmin edge devices, Robert Sexton has updated his “Time in Hand” CIQ app/data field for the 2023 control closing times (version 3)

https://apps.garmin.com/en-US/apps/341a30bc-d557-4564-bf3f-cd5c8dae2f47

For those not familiar with this it calculates the difference between your elapsed time at any point along the brevet and the closing time at a control at your current location, thus your current time in hand, you would want to try it on a ride before pbp so you are familiar with it, it’s a guide only of course but might confirm or otherwise your own on going mental arithmetic.

[mattc]

Now that Im going to be DQed for helmet heresy, I can have 6h sleep on the 2nd night and not give a toss about missing the next 3 closing times.
Could be my nicest PB ever! 

[LateStarter]

The 80h groups and 90h down to group J are now out of time at Brest (if the “must be respected” earlier closing is enforced) , the rest of the 90h run out of time over the next 2 hours, looks like a few will be pushing it.

The good news is that Zacklaws’ concern for his time was unfounded and he made Brest with over 2 hours to spare.

Good luck all for the return.

[D.A.L.E.]

Is there an elapsed time control closing time list anyhwere? A few people I know are pushing it, but not sure how much time they're actually dealing with.

[L CC]

I used this: https://pbpcalc.com/ which implies the Barnetts were OOT.

I doubt that's right unless they have issues- they're a strong tandem team.

[JonBuoy]

You can calculate them from here: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=124874.msg2834129#msg2834129

[D.A.L.E.]

I used this: https://pbpcalc.com/ which implies the Barnetts were OOT.

I doubt that's right unless they have issues- they're a strong tandem team.

I might be using it wrong, but it doesn't show actual closing times does it? Just whatever values are put into it. Like, I put 15km/h, but that will change from Brest, right?

There's a couple of people who I would class as strong seemingly really struggling.

[JonBuoy]

I used this: https://pbpcalc.com/ which implies the Barnetts were OOT.

I doubt that's right unless they have issues- they're a strong tandem team.

It looks like the elapsed time to Brest for the 90 hour group is 40:19 in which case they are indeed OOT.  Hopefully they will be allowed to continue and can pull it back.

[D.A.L.E.]

I used this: https://pbpcalc.com/ which implies the Barnetts were OOT.

I doubt that's right unless they have issues- they're a strong tandem team.

It looks like the elapsed time to Brest for the 90 hour group is 40:19 in which case they are indeed OOT.  Hopefully they will be allowed to continue and can pull it back.

Eh?  How do you get that number?

[LateStarter]

I used this: https://pbpcalc.com/ which implies the Barnetts were OOT.

I doubt that's right unless they have issues- they're a strong tandem team.

I might be using it wrong, but it doesn't show actual closing times does it? Just whatever values are put into it. Like, I put 15km/h, but that will change from Brest, right?

There's a couple of people who I would class as strong seemingly really struggling.

For some reason all that stuff was available only to registered riders, the Brest closing (90h) is Start + 40h19m so only Group S, T & U are within that and all 90h will be out of time (Brest) in 45 minutes.