I've been pinged by the Covid App

[joy of essex]

Turned on my phone this morning, having first been out to get some milk, and the NHS Covid App message appeared. I have been in close contact with someone who has tested positive and so am advised to self-isolate for 7 days.  I go on holiday on Saturday.

As I was in Westfield ( Stratford ) yesterday evening then I assume that's when my phone pinged with someone else's phone. It wasn't that busy or crowded. The irony is that I am an infrequent carrier of my phone and it just so happened that I was carrying it that evening.

One lateral flow test later and I didn't have a positive result. I will do more and will isolate. My wife hasn't had a message yet.
My risk assessment, and I may be biased here, suggests that I am low risk.

Rather annoyed by all this and I now see why there are concerns about this app and the consequences of being pinged. The app guidance is contradictory as one page advises me to isolate for  7 days and the other for 10 days.

Anyone else received the message.  How are they managing it,  strict adherence or a risk-based approach ?

[Ashaman42]

My other half got pinged the other day and it just said to isolate for three days. We think, working back to when she must have been pinged, that it took seven days for whoever was the cause to report/identify that they had covid.

[joy of essex]

I should have added that I am double vaxed.

My concern is the sensitivity of the app. If the contact happened yesterday evening then I would imagine that many of the people who were at Westfield last night will have got the message.

Unless, of course, it's not at Westfield where the contact happened. So could have been  bus trip yesterday or the trip to the bike shop.

Or if the contact was further back any where over the last few days.  Though, as my wife hasn't yet had the ping, then I assume it's probably a contact from yesterday.

[grams]

As the post above says you can backtrack by subtracting 10 from the number of days it says to isolate. That will give you the date of your supposed exposure.

The app is utter shite in terms of sensitivity. If you were hanging out indoors with strangers on that date you should take it seriously. If you weren’t doing anything risky then I see no problem ignoring it.

It’s unlikely the ping relates to activity the evening before.

[Regulator]

"My concern is the sensitivity of the app. If the contact happened yesterday evening then I would imagine that many of the people who were at Westfield last night will have got the message."

You have to be within a certain distance (2m) for a minimum of 15 minutes or more.  That's not particularly likely in many retail settings - it's more likely in restaurants/bars etc.

Requirements to self-isolate are still in force. 

With regards to the accuracy of LFTs, they are more accurate in the earlier stages of infection, when the viral load is higher.  However under the rules, unless you are Tory Cabinet minister or a Tory Party donor and have privileged access to the 'trial' scheme to replace isolation with daily LFT testing, a negative LFT doesn't count and you are required to self-isolate.

You're being advised to self-isolate for 7 days as the relevant contact will have been four days ago.

[Sergeant Pluck]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jul/20/uk-covid-live-latest-updates-ping-nhs-app-self-isolate-boris-johnson-dominic-cummings?page=with:block-60f67cf28f0814e7a316cde9#block-60f67cf28f0814e7a316cde9

But this morning Paul Scully, the business minister, offered an alternative solution; you can always ignore a ping from the NHS Covid app, he pointed out.

Scully was able to say this because, while an instruction to isolate from NHS test and trace is a legal requirement, a ping from the app is just advisory. This was not a distinction that was widely advertised when the app was launched, but ministers now seem keen to highlight it.

 

[joy of essex]

Four days ago takes me back to  Friday.

So the significant contact, ie being within 2m for 15 mins or more, I had  on Friday was being at an outside barbecue/bar that evening. Trying  to remember what else I was doing on Friday but that sounds like it might have been the occasion.

As mentioned, it's advisory.

[Polar Bear]

I really don't see the point of having the app if you don't intend to abide by the ping.  That's not being critical, just an observation.

The government has made the rules and exceptions so "flexible" over the duration that I have little or no faith in the real effectiveness of the app and the tracing process.   I'm just trying to use good old common sense but of course for each of us that is entirely subjective.  I do expect that another huge spike is imminent. 

[Regulator]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jul/20/uk-covid-live-latest-updates-ping-nhs-app-self-isolate-boris-johnson-dominic-cummings?page=with:block-60f67cf28f0814e7a316cde9#block-60f67cf28f0814e7a316cde9

But this morning Paul Scully, the business minister, offered an alternative solution; you can always ignore a ping from the NHS Covid app, he pointed out.

Scully was able to say this because, while an instruction to isolate from NHS test and trace is a legal requirement, a ping from the app is just advisory. This was not a distinction that was widely advertised when the app was launched, but ministers now seem keen to highlight it.

 

It's an interesting interpretation*, given that the NHS Covid-19 app is ostensibly operated by Test & Trace.  Therefore, an instruction from the app is arguably an instruction from Test & Trace.  People seem to be choreographing angels in order to argue the opposite - as the legislation doesn't indicate how the contact from Test & Trace needs to be made.

It also doesn't help that people are conflating the NHS Covid-19 app (operated by Test and Trace) with the NHS App (operated by the NHS) - and this hasn't been helped by vaccination records and certification being done via the NHS app rather than the NHS Covid app.

However, as the government are fudging it to cover their arses, the courts will likely go with the latest pronouncement from a corrupt minister...




*We had to get specific legal advice as a healthcare employer.  Our legal advisors are of the view is as not a clear cut as some might suggest.

[Kim]

You have to be within a certain distance (2m) for a minimum of 15 minutes or more.  That's not particularly likely in many retail settings - it's more likely in restaurants/bars etc.

Public transport...

[joy of essex]

As I understand it a "ping "  from the  app , ie you have been 2m from someone positive for more than 15 mins , then isolation is advisory.

If you have a positive PCR test from T &T  requires you  by law to isolate. 

How that's enforced is another matter.

Given that the Virus and it's variants must now  be endemic  I can see why the app is causing problems; the equivalent of too many false positives in a screening programme. 

[Sergeant Pluck]

It's an interesting interpretation*

Between that, Vallance's "60%" last night - seized upon by anti-vaxxers despite the explanation - and all the rest of it, the T&T system and the programme to get as many more as possible vaccinated is well and truly buggered.

[joy of essex]

Just to add, I am abiding by the Ping.

Many bikes will be settled over the  next few days

[Sergeant Pluck]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/20/isolate-if-pinged-by-nhs-covid-app-says-no-10-despite-ministers-claims

Number 10 said employers “should not be encouraging” workers to ignore isolation warnings, even though the app’s instructions are not legally enforceable

Yes, I'm sure businesses are going to do that now 

[Kim]

Given that the Virus and it's variants must now  be endemic  I can see why the app is causing problems; the equivalent of too many false positives in a screening programme.

The app is doing its job.  It's the virus that's causing problems.  We shouldn't fall for spin that frames it otherwise.

[Regulator]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/20/isolate-if-pinged-by-nhs-covid-app-says-no-10-despite-ministers-claims

Number 10 said employers “should not be encouraging” workers to ignore isolation warnings, even though the app’s instructions are not legally enforceable

Yes, I'm sure businesses are going to do that now 

We took legal advice, as the legislation is not clear - and we know that the government advice is contradictory.  The lack of clarity gives rise to all sorts of legal implications and potential liabilities for employers.  We were advised that in order to be safe that we should count a 'ping' as a requirement to self-isolate.  Hopefully the majority of responsible employers will take that approach.

[joy of essex]

Just pressed a few more buttons on the app . They want to collect a lot more information and there's an implication that I should expect a knock on the door, though I doubt if I will.
All quite intimidating.

[Regulator]

Given that the Virus and it's variants must now  be endemic  I can see why the app is causing problems; the equivalent of too many false positives in a screening programme.

The app is doing its job.  It's the virus that's causing problems.  We shouldn't fall for spin that frames it otherwise.

Yep.  The app isn't 'faulty' or 'too sensitive' - it's doing what it is supposed to do.  The fundamental problem is that we have the Delta variant running rampant in the community and a government who are too in hock to their donors to give a shit about the public.  Johnson's view will be that this will create a mess someone else will have to clear up in due course...

[Sergeant Pluck]

Hopefully the majority of responsible employers will take that approach.

Hopefully. We will probably see a situation soon where employers, agencies and individuals are being more responsible and ethical than our government.

[joy of essex]

Sure, the app is doing its job. As I have been doing mine.
The comparison I made was with  the problems Screening programmes face when they are too many false positives. This usually negates the value of the programme.

[rafletcher]

My employers approach is to say “get a PCR test, if it’s negative plan you return to work”.

[grams]

Yep.  The app isn't 'faulty' or 'too sensitive' - it's doing what it is supposed to do.

Bluetooth is an incredibly crude way to distinguish infectious encounters from harmless ones. It's both far too sensitive and to compensate the threshold for an encounter is set far too high. The app is working as badly as it always has.

The other problem is the app was designed into a world where encounters with infectious people were rare and we were trying to stop the spread. At this point (in England) you might as well text everyone who's left the house to say they might have been near an infectious person, because they probably have.

[joy of essex]

All the app has told me is that 4 days ago I was near someone whose now had  a positive test.
It's amazing how when one is directly affected by a problem then one's high horse suddenly becomes  a Shetland  pony.

[Kim]

The other problem is the app was designed into a world where encounters with infectious people were rare and we were trying to stop the spread. At this point (in England) you might as well text everyone who's left the house to say they might have been near an infectious person, because they probably have.

This is also true   

[Solocle]

I got pinged on Wednesday, and have now finished self-isolation (it told me 6 days).

This came from two positive cases at work. How the contact occurred, I don't know, as they're a different department...

I took a PCR on Sunday which was negative.