I've been pinged by the Covid App

[T42]

I got pinged on Wednesday, and have now finished self-isolation (it told me 6 days).

This came from two positive cases at work. How the contact occurred, I don't know, as they're a different department...

Bluetooth through walls/floors/windows?

[Lightning Phil]

It also doesn't help that people are conflating the NHS Covid-19 app (operated by Test and Trace) with the NHS App (operated by the NHS) - and this hasn't been helped by vaccination records and certification being done via the NHS app rather than the NHS Covid app.

To be fair the NHS App already does the rest of your vaccination record as well as your GP record and any prescriptions and health tests you’ve had.  The Covid 19 vaccination record being there is natural. The only extra they added recently was the 2D bar code functionality for events and travel, with ability to print paper copy if you wanted. You can also see the vaccination details in the existing part of app together with your other records. Lateral flow tests appear there as well if you report the results on the website.

The Test and trace Covid 19 app is anonymous as it was designed second time around. To retain the anominity there’s no way it could show your vaccination record.

[rafletcher]

I got pinged on Wednesday, and have now finished self-isolation (it told me 6 days).

This came from two positive cases at work. How the contact occurred, I don't know, as they're a different department...

Bluetooth through walls/floors/windows?

Yep, happened to one of our directors. Was in his office, which is one of several in a row, about 2.5m wide, and got pinged because a guy that was in the adjacent office for a meeting tested positive.

[Lightning Phil]

If you are going to use it, then I think it only fair to isolate if it pings you.  Personally I don’t use it, but that is because I do not have a compatible phone. If the government was prepared to buy me a new phone I probably would. But most of the time I’m not even wandering round with a basic mobile phone.


We use the lateral flow tests before going anywhere we are going to mix with others for a reasonable period.  For instance did them before visiting my mother end of June. Do them ahead of audax events etc.

Generally still not mixing all that much for now.

[Regulator]

It also doesn't help that people are conflating the NHS Covid-19 app (operated by Test and Trace) with the NHS App (operated by the NHS) - and this hasn't been helped by vaccination records and certification being done via the NHS app rather than the NHS Covid app.

To be fair the NHS App already does the rest of your vaccination record as well as your GP record and any prescriptions and health tests you’ve had.  The Covid 19 vaccination record being there is natural. The only extra they added recently was the 2D bar code functionality for events and travel, with ability to print paper copy if you wanted. You can also see the vaccination details in the existing part of app together with your other records. Lateral flow tests appear there as well if you report the results on the website.

The Test and trace Covid 19 app is anonymous as it was designed second time around. To retain the anominity there’s no way it could show your vaccination record.

The NHS App doesn't (at this time) provide a general vaccination record.  In default it contains the details included in the Summary Care Record (which does not include vaccination status) so basically:

• medications (current and discontinued)
• allergies and adverse incidents

It doesn't give access to the full GP record (which would include vaccination records - if they've been coded) unless you specifically request it from your GP practice - which is a pain in the arse to do if you have a practice like mine, which doesn't grant access to your full GP record via the NHS App but insist you :

(a) register to use a different system (systmonline)
(b) download and use a separate app (Airmid)

- neither of which actually link to the NHS App.

[Lightning Phil]

It also doesn't help that people are conflating the NHS Covid-19 app (operated by Test and Trace) with the NHS App (operated by the NHS) - and this hasn't been helped by vaccination records and certification being done via the NHS app rather than the NHS Covid app.

To be fair the NHS App already does the rest of your vaccination record as well as your GP record and any prescriptions and health tests you’ve had.  The Covid 19 vaccination record being there is natural. The only extra they added recently was the 2D bar code functionality for events and travel, with ability to print paper copy if you wanted. You can also see the vaccination details in the existing part of app together with your other records. Lateral flow tests appear there as well if you report the results on the website.

The Test and trace Covid 19 app is anonymous as it was designed second time around. To retain the anominity there’s no way it could show your vaccination record.

The NHS App doesn't (at this time) provide a general vaccination record.  In default it contains the details included in the Summary Care Record (which does not include vaccination status) so basically:

Yes it does if you’ve requested access through your GP.  I can see my full record and could before Covid came along.  The summary care record is basic but far from all it shows.  It does not show by default but if you ask for access it does together with all the other stuff.

Sounds like you need to request access to your detailed record . Which is what I’d did yonks ago. If you’ve only started using since Covid 19 you probably don’t realise the additional capabilities. Like you don’t know it can show your full vacc record and the rest of your GP data.

[fd3]

j.o.e., good on you.  It's so very tempting not to isolate and to find reasons why not. 
It's another issue of the app (and doing regular LFTs), if you do it properly you will have to isolate more - often when you are not COVIDed.  Which means that there is very little motivation for people to do it.

[Regulator]

It also doesn't help that people are conflating the NHS Covid-19 app (operated by Test and Trace) with the NHS App (operated by the NHS) - and this hasn't been helped by vaccination records and certification being done via the NHS app rather than the NHS Covid app.

To be fair the NHS App already does the rest of your vaccination record as well as your GP record and any prescriptions and health tests you’ve had.  The Covid 19 vaccination record being there is natural. The only extra they added recently was the 2D bar code functionality for events and travel, with ability to print paper copy if you wanted. You can also see the vaccination details in the existing part of app together with your other records. Lateral flow tests appear there as well if you report the results on the website.

The Test and trace Covid 19 app is anonymous as it was designed second time around. To retain the anominity there’s no way it could show your vaccination record.

The NHS App doesn't (at this time) provide a general vaccination record.  In default it contains the details included in the Summary Care Record (which does not include vaccination status) so basically:

Yes it does if you’ve requested access through your GP.  I can see my full record and could before Covid came along.  The summary care record is basic but far from all it shows.  It does not show by default but if you ask for access it does together with all the other stuff.

Sounds like you need to request access to your detailed record . Which is what I’d did yonks ago. If you’ve only started using since Covid 19 you probably don’t realise the additional capabilities. Like you don’t know it can show your full vacc record and the rest of your GP data.

I know the NHS app very well (having been involved at a high level in its early development).  As I said - and you appear to accept - it does not give automatic access to full clinical records or vaccination records.  You have to ask your practice to give you access...   and many practices, such as my own, do not give access via the NHS App itself but via a third party app (in my practice's case Airmid).  This is one of the downsides not having a single GP record system across the NHS - and a failure to ensure that the various systems on the market actually meet the required accessibility and interoperability requirements, relying instead on self-certification.

[Lightning Phil]

It also doesn't help that people are conflating the NHS Covid-19 app (operated by Test and Trace) with the NHS App (operated by the NHS) - and this hasn't been helped by vaccination records and certification being done via the NHS app rather than the NHS Covid app.

To be fair the NHS App already does the rest of your vaccination record as well as your GP record and any prescriptions and health tests you’ve had.  The Covid 19 vaccination record being there is natural. The only extra they added recently was the 2D bar code functionality for events and travel, with ability to print paper copy if you wanted. You can also see the vaccination details in the existing part of app together with your other records. Lateral flow tests appear there as well if you report the results on the website.

The Test and trace Covid 19 app is anonymous as it was designed second time around. To retain the anominity there’s no way it could show your vaccination record.

The NHS App doesn't (at this time) provide a general vaccination record.  In default it contains the details included in the Summary Care Record (which does not include vaccination status) so basically:

Yes it does if you’ve requested access through your GP.  I can see my full record and could before Covid came along.  The summary care record is basic but far from all it shows.  It does not show by default but if you ask for access it does together with all the other stuff.

Sounds like you need to request access to your detailed record . Which is what I’d did yonks ago. If you’ve only started using since Covid 19 you probably don’t realise the additional capabilities. Like you don’t know it can show your full vacc record and the rest of your GP data.

I know the NHS app very well (having been involved at a high level in its early development).  As I said - and you appear to accept - it does not give automatic access to full clinical records or vaccination records.  You have to ask your practice to give you access...   and many practices, such as my own, do not give access via the NHS App itself but via a third party app (in my practice's case Airmid).  This is one of the downsides not having a single GP record system across the NHS - and a failure to ensure that the various systems on the market actually meet the required accessibility and interoperability requirements, relying instead on self-certification.

You clearly didn’t know the detail. Otherwise you would not have said it doesn’t give access when I can see it for my very own eyes.  Of course you need to be granted access. Just like any IT out there.

I was originally given access requesting via Airmid but the access carried over to the NHS App.  I can flip between the two and see my full vaccination record in both.

It’s somewhat frustrating when someone says it can’t access your full record when I can see it with my very own eyes.

[Croft]

We took legal advice, as the legislation is not clear - and we know that the government advice is contradictory.  The lack of clarity gives rise to all sorts of legal implications and potential liabilities for employers.  We were advised that in order to be safe that we should count a 'ping' as a requirement to self-isolate.  Hopefully the majority of responsible employers will take that approach.

I would have thought a significant legal complication is the fact that there is no (legal) obligation to own a phone capable of running it, or to install the app, or to carry a phone with it activated, or to keep the phone charged with enough battery juice for it to work, or to listen for a ping.

Much more important is a societal view as to whether there is a moral responsibility to do all of the above. Which is why Scully's pronouncement is potentially so damaging.

[jsabine]

... [Stuff] ...

It’s somewhat frustrating when someone says it can’t access your full record when I can see it with my very own eyes.

Aren't you two arguing in violent agreement with each other?

As far as I can see, each of you has said:
- By default the NHS app shows you your summary care record
- If you want to see more detail, you have to ask your GP practice to enable this.

Reg has added:
- Not all GP practices support this app, instead choosing to enable access through other platforms.

When you log into the app, it says:

Your record shows personal data, such as your details, allergies and medications.

Depending on what your GP surgery shares, you may also see:

- your medical history, including problems and consultation notes
- test results that you may not have discussed with your doctor

As for me, I see the same information, including a tetanus jab in 1984, through all of the NHS app, PatientAccess and MyGP. But our practice has a list of about 15 apps/services that it supports.

[De Sisti]

With the app on your phone, does one have to have bluetooth enabled in order to be pinged?

[Lightning Phil]

... [Stuff] ...

It’s somewhat frustrating when someone says it can’t access your full record when I can see it with my very own eyes.

Aren't you two arguing in violent agreement with each other?

As far as I can see, each of you has said:
- By default the NHS app shows you your summary care record
- If you want to see more detail, you have to ask your GP practice to enable this.

Reg has added:
- Not all GP practices support this app, instead choosing to enable access through other platforms.

When you log into the app, it says:

Your record shows personal data, such as your details, allergies and medications.

Depending on what your GP surgery shares, you may also see:

- your medical history, including problems and consultation notes
- test results that you may not have discussed with your doctor

As for me, I see the same information, including a tetanus jab in 1984, through all of the NHS app, PatientAccess and MyGP. But our practice has a list of about 15 apps/services that it supports.

The Airmid app allows you to submit home readings of blood pressure, resting HR etc. But that isn’t  shown in NHS app. The Airmid shows the additional health data you add together with trends,  My GP practice asked me to do that last year as I was due a BP check as part of their healthy over 50’s checks.  What with the surgery not being open for that purpose.

There another app systemtonline which they used initially and still works with less functionality

[nuttycyclist]

We took legal advice, as the legislation is not clear - and we know that the government advice is contradictory.  The lack of clarity gives rise to all sorts of legal implications and potential liabilities for employers.  We were advised that in order to be safe that we should count a 'ping' as a requirement to self-isolate.  Hopefully the majority of responsible employers will take that approach.

I would have thought a significant legal complication is the fact that there is no (legal) obligation to own a phone capable of running it, or to install the app, or to carry a phone with it activated, or to keep the phone charged with enough battery juice for it to work, or to listen for a ping.

Much more important is a societal view as to whether there is a moral responsibility to do all of the above. Which is why Scully's pronouncement is potentially so damaging.

I understand the comment re whether there is a moral responsibility to do all the above, but I don't agree.

I don't have a compatible phone as I have no need for one.  I don't go out much, am anti-social, and have always fought for personal space - so the restrictions have been heaven to me.  If I do then I have a basic phone work provide me for on-call purposes and to call our customers, so in an emergency and where a pay-phone isn't available I can call for assistance.

I am not happy to go and buy a brand new smartphone (££££) or subscribe to a £££ per month contract, just to be able to install the app and have the phone sat at home on charge and out of bluetooth range of anybody.    Even if I did take it out with me when I cycle to the supermarket, I'm not in there long enough to trigger the two metres for fifteen minutes that is what is supposed to trigger a ping.

[Polar Bear]

Perfectly reasonable Nutty.

I do possess a smartphone but like you I avoid crowded spaces and cluttered supermarkets.  I can tell people exactly when I was within 2 metres proximity of another person for ten minutes let alone 15* who is not part of my household and I already know barring unforeseen incident when the next occasion will be.

The problem with "freedom" via the app is that in fact it isn't freedom at all.  All the app really is as far as I can tell is a method to allow people to be more reckless and go to pubs, restaurants and clubs.   I suspect those enjoying being off work whilst the sun shines would be less likely to be ping-fenced if it was cold, wet and windy.

I'll continue to look out for myself, my loved ones, and all those who come into relatively close proximity of me.

* It was Tuesday, July 13th if you're really interested.

[Kim]

With the app on your phone, does one have to have bluetooth enabled in order to be pinged?

The app will ask you to enable Bluetooth when you turn on contact tracing.  Obviously it can't perform Bluetooth scans with Bluetooth disabled, but it could presumably still notify you if a previous contact (from when you did have it turned on) meant you should isolate.

[DuncanM]

Plus, if you turn off bluetooth for some reason (like pairing with the car has gone a bit wonky) then the app will nag you to turn it back on again.

[De Sisti]

With the app on your phone, does one have to have bluetooth enabled in order to be pinged?

The app will ask you to enable Bluetooth when you turn on contact tracing.  Obviously it can't perform Bluetooth scans with Bluetooth disabled, but it could presumably still notify you if a previous contact (from when you did have it turned on) meant you should isolate.

I have my bluetooth off to preserve battery life (and generally only turn it on when when I'm working out
on my Concept2 rower, or uploading photos from my phone to computers) so not much point in me having
the app on my phone.

[Hot Flatus]

I deleted the app weeks ago. I get fed up with the daily irony of spending all day crammed in a poorly ventilated room with a different 30 kids every hour, and yet still might get pinged because I walked past somebody in Aldi

[Regulator]

I deleted the app weeks ago. I get fed up with the daily irony of spending all day crammed in a poorly ventilated room with a different 30 kids every hour, and yet still might get pinged because I walked past somebody in Aldi

You have to be within two metres of the person for at least 15 minutes…. passing them in Aldi would not result in a ping.

[Polar Bear]

I have walked away rather than wait in extremely slow queues recently.  These are often caused by the ignorant who suddenly remember that they have forgotten something and shoot off whilst their half-scanned shopping remains on the conveyor.  I'll only be a minute" is an oft used and very inaccurate statement.

Just finished your shopping and go round again chum.

[Hot Flatus]

I deleted the app weeks ago. I get fed up with the daily irony of spending all day crammed in a poorly ventilated room with a different 30 kids every hour, and yet still might get pinged because I walked past somebody in Aldi

You have to be within two metres of the person for at least 15 minutes…. passing them in Aldi would not result in a ping.

OK, in a pub garden then,  when it's blowing a gale and everyone is wearing NBC respirators. 👌

[grams]

“2 metres for 15 minutes” seems to be hearsay (unless someone has a cite?) and is probably technically impossible to enforce that cleanly. Even if that is the intended threshold, at best it can be implemented as “two keys from the same user closely spaced in time both with a fairly strong signal” given how the system works.

[Kim]

I deleted the app weeks ago. I get fed up with the daily irony of spending all day crammed in a poorly ventilated room with a different 30 kids every hour, and yet still might get pinged because I walked past somebody in Aldi

What stops the app registering this as contact?  School phone ban?  Policy of suspending contact tracing before entering such an infectious environment?

Anyway, surely the point is that the app can warn the person that you walked past in Aldi that they've been in contact with you...

[Hot Flatus]

I deleted the app weeks ago. I get fed up with the daily irony of spending all day crammed in a poorly ventilated room with a different 30 kids every hour, and yet still might get pinged because I walked past somebody in Aldi

What stops the app registering this as contact?  School phone ban?  Policy of suspending contact tracing before entering such an infectious environment?

Phone ban

Anyway, surely the point is that the app can warn the person that you walked past in Aldi that they've been in contact with you...

Yes, this is true, but with 2-3 LFT tests a week (7 over the last 8 days) I'm not sure how much of an asymptomatic risk I pose to them, besides...the app won't alert them to me as a dodgy contact as infective kids dont have app switched on.