Author Topic: Touring Bikes?  (Read 14947 times)

BrianI

  • Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's Lepidopterist Man!
Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #150 on: 21 January, 2022, 05:15:32 pm »
Well, I'm loving my old 2008 Dawes Horizon Touring bike, now I got it switched over to flat bars, normal v-brakes, trigger shifters, and bar ends!  :thumbsup:

Was a bit of a cost involved in the conversion, and took a while to get the various components especially 9 speed flat bar trigger shifters.  I had ran it for a while using dura-ace bar end shifters converted to thumb shifters using conversion brackets, but I found them not particularly ergonomically comfortable. But I'm very pleased with the bike now. Nice and comfy position. :thumbsup:


bhoot

  • MemSec (ex-Mrs RRtY)
Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #151 on: 21 January, 2022, 05:21:31 pm »
You've obviously already got the STI hoods. Could you keep them for their comfortable shape but only connect the brake cables, then use DT shifters (or bar ends, whichever you prefer) for friction shifting?
We did just that on the tandem - have bar end shifters but the Ergos are still doing service as brake levers.

Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #152 on: 21 January, 2022, 05:47:19 pm »
The larger market for flat bar tourers, trekking bikes if you prefer, has always been well catered for, either borrowing from the MTB world, or with dedicated groupsets.
But still has problems of incompatibility between this-speed shifters and that-speed mechs.
Not really, there will always be some who need to get creative and mix and match to get exactly what they want, but that doesn't contradict what I said about the flat bar touring/Trekking market being well catered for.  The chances of most tourers finding what they want straight off the shelf are greater if they're using flat bars.
I wasn't making a recommendation, just pointing out there's a reason it can be hard to find the right kit, I mentioned it might be changing and quixoticgeek expanded on that, it's all good unless it offends your tribalism. Still I think it's a shame touring/trekking/bikepacking are being presented and developed as completely different things when the similarities ought to be obvious.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #153 on: 21 January, 2022, 06:29:02 pm »
I think those are two separate points, rather than a contradiction.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #154 on: 21 January, 2022, 09:15:28 pm »
Still I think it's a shame touring/trekking/bikepacking are being presented and developed as completely different things when the similarities ought to be obvious.

Yeabut if you pretend it's a completely new thing you can sell people exciting new toys.  Even if the older / unfashionably German ways are better.


In terms of transmissions suitable for touring, the recumbent manufacturers usually have this worked out one way or another.  Of course, it helps that only weirdos use drop bar controls on a recumbent...

Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #155 on: 22 January, 2022, 10:56:54 am »
But yes, it's mad and annoying that inter-operability is only available through electronic shifting.
We're wandering well off topic, but that is only the case with UK/US preference for drop bar tourers, which has always been too small a market for the big players to bother with, though this may be changing.  The larger market for flat bar tourers, trekking bikes if you prefer, has always been well catered for, either borrowing from the MTB world, or with dedicated groupsets.
That’s the other (main, even) reason I’ve got bar end shifters. I can run a mountain bike 26/38 x 11-34 and matching derailleurs, bb, hubs etc and all those bits are working together as intended. Other brake levers do me as well as STIs.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #156 on: 22 January, 2022, 11:03:37 am »
That’s the other (main, even) reason I’ve got bar end shifters. I can run a mountain bike 26/38 x 11-34 and matching derailleurs, bb, hubs etc and all those bits are working together as intended. Other brake levers do me as well as STIs.

I have that, but with Di2. Which has the added advantage of many ways to shift. And Hydraulic brakes...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #157 on: 23 January, 2022, 06:07:17 pm »
That’s the other (main, even) reason I’ve got bar end shifters. I can run a mountain bike 26/38 x 11-34 and matching derailleurs, bb, hubs etc and all those bits are working together as intended. Other brake levers do me as well as STIs.

I have that, but with Di2. Which has the added advantage of many ways to shift. And Hydraulic brakes...

J
I’ve nothing against Di2, other than it’s effect on my bank balance.

Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #158 on: 23 January, 2022, 10:04:55 pm »

I think the guidance about running 8 speed cos it'll be easier to find when on the road, etc... is probably a bit out dated. 10 speed tiagra, or 11 speed is likely to be easier to find, just cos it's more common now.

But I think this also ignores to an extent the fact that these days you can get a bike part shipped to almost anywhere in the world in a day or 3. If you can bodge enough to get you to a place that can receive post, you can get the parts you need, tho it may not be cheap. Tho if I was going that far off the beaten track, carrying a spare freehub body, and even the axle kit for a hub isn't gonna slow you down that much.

I know when working in a bike shop in the European capital of cycling, that anything other than the current line of what ever shimano are making, can be pretty hard to get. We certainly didn't have a box of 8 speed cassette just waiting for someone with an old bike came in.

I do like the idea upthread about carrying a friction shifter as a backup, has excellent bodge me to a bike shop potential. But cos I'm on Di2, I can just remap the buttons about to get the shifting I need. I also carry a enough spare wire to recable most of the bike in the event of damage. They weigh very little, so are easy to carry.

J

Maybe it's not a bikeshop (but they do sell something like 90% of new bikes in France - or did until the virus panic when their supplies dried up just like everyone else's) but in most, if not all, you should find chains, screw-on freewheels 6 and 7sp, cassettes 7,8 and usually 9sp, some gear controls and mechs, all for low end stuff it's true. Where? Decathlon, "A fond la forme". Chains I can also find in my local hyper, along with rather horrible gear cables and lighting sets for emergency use when all else fails. I don't know what my LBS carries, he's pretty good but stuff is so varied these days he seems to order most of it. I don't suppose he carries spares for Di2, that would be an order job. At the other end of the scale, if you ride a 40yr old bicyclette we do have someone with a shop repairing that sort of thing but only by recycling 40yr old bits, which is not a good arguement for using that sort of thing as a bulletproof touring option.
Of course getting the bits is one thing, having access to a workshop with the tools to fit them can be something else. At least with a screw-on freewheel the tool is relatively small and light and any passing garage will usually loan you the use of a vice. A cassette needs a chainwhip (or other tool which I don't know but probably evey one else does) as well as the remover (although the vice will handle blocking the tool).

Given the difficulty I have with a GPS or even a smartphone, I can't think of anything more likely to stop me dead in my touring tracks than reprogramming the buttons on an electronic shifting system. I would be more likely to shorten the chain and run a single cog - which is more easily done with an outdated 7 or 8sp  chain and sprockets!

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #159 on: 23 January, 2022, 10:17:39 pm »
Maybe it's not a bikeshop (but they do sell something like 90% of new bikes in France - or did until the virus panic when their supplies dried up just like everyone else's) but in most, if not all, you should find chains, screw-on freewheels 6 and 7sp, cassettes 7,8 and usually 9sp, some gear controls and mechs, all for low end stuff it's true. Where? Decathlon, "A fond la forme". Chains I can also find in my local hyper, along with rather horrible gear cables and lighting sets for emergency use when all else fails. I don't know what my LBS carries, he's pretty good but stuff is so varied these days he seems to order most of it. I don't suppose he carries spares for Di2, that would be an order job. At the other end of the scale, if you ride a 40yr old bicyclette we do have someone with a shop repairing that sort of thing but only by recycling 40yr old bits, which is not a good arguement for using that sort of thing as a bulletproof touring option.
Of course getting the bits is one thing, having access to a workshop with the tools to fit them can be something else. At least with a screw-on freewheel the tool is relatively small and light and any passing garage will usually loan you the use of a vice. A cassette needs a chainwhip (or other tool which I don't know but probably evey one else does) as well as the remover (although the vice will handle blocking the tool).

Except, there aren't an abundance of decathlon's out there, not if you're out touring in the more scenic parts of the UK, or world. So for most you'd be relying on them to ship stuff to you.

https://www.decathlon.co.uk/store-locator

Yes a Cassette needs a tool, but it's also the same tool as disk brake rotor lock rings, so I carry one, it's a very light weight version made by Wolf Tooth Components. I don't carry a chain whip, but I'm sure I could improvise something if I really needed to... You can get cassette tools that are designed to work in the drop outs. Spares for Di2, are going to be either cables (which I carry), jockey wheels (which could be any 11 speed jockey wheels), or derailure, and if that dies, I got bigger issues.

Quote
Given the difficulty I have with a GPS or even a smartphone, I can't think of anything more likely to stop me dead in my touring tracks than reprogramming the buttons on an electronic shifting system. I would be more likely to shorten the chain and run a single cog - which is more easily done with an outdated 7 or 8sp  chain and sprockets!

You would be really surprised how easy it is with the smartphone app, If of course you are in any way tech literate enough to use a smart phone. Perhaps it's a generational thing. Either way, it's easier than fettling cables.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #160 on: 23 January, 2022, 11:07:58 pm »
I've had experience replacing 8 speed components across nearly all parts of Europe, North America and Asia.  As of 2018-19, they were harder to get hold of in most places than 9, 10 or even 11 speed, and certainly weren't easier to get hold of anywhere at all.  I don't know about Africa or South America but anyone who says otherwise about the continents I mentioned is with the birds.  On my trip, I ended up replacing 8 speed stuff pre-emptively, and usually by UPS from the UK whenever I could stay with friends rather than when my kit wore out, so I didn't end up gaining anything. 

The argument that freewheels are more easily maintainable than freehubs is even odder.  Freehub axles are far stronger and less likely to get bent due to the bearings being further outboard, which is an important consideration for a loaded tourer!  You can change a cassette in the field without a vice, which is also a plus point for freehubs.  The spline tool is the same for either technology, the chain whip is easily improvised (you'll find one of these in every motor garage) and all you then need is a spanner! As QG points out, the spline tool will also change your disc brakes, and is a small thing to carry if you're on a tour long enough to require changing cassettes.

Plus of course, if you get the right rear hub, the freehub is pull-out, which is very useful if one of your bearings does suddenly shatter in the middle of the road in India - see below. 




Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #161 on: 24 January, 2022, 08:07:10 am »
Just pick the right gear and ride single speed fixed or free 😉.  With todays lightweight camping kit this should be quite possible. Okay  walking up some inclines would be nessercery but brake cables/pads and tyres/tubes are the spares you need. People have wridden around the world on single speed cycles  :demon: :)
the slower you go the more you see

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #162 on: 24 January, 2022, 03:37:46 pm »
Why not take all the angst of bicycle maintenance out of the equation and just walk?

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #163 on: 24 January, 2022, 04:03:53 pm »
Walking introduces the angst of shoe repair and replacement. Far more trouble-free to swim.  ;)
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #164 on: 24 January, 2022, 06:08:11 pm »
Walking introduces the angst of shoe repair and replacement. Far more trouble-free to swim.  ;)

Swimming brings potential for hypothermia and drowning.

Better to stay at home.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #165 on: 24 January, 2022, 06:28:03 pm »
Why not take all the angst of bicycle maintenance out of the equation and just walk?
Maybe I could train eagles to carry me, in a lord of the rings style? Though I suspect the average hostel might not welcome them in the kitchen.

While we’re obsessing over what might break, how do hub gears compare to derailleurs for reliability? (Probably not great for in the wild spares though, I know.)

Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #166 on: 24 January, 2022, 06:29:29 pm »
At least you don't need to walk down hill with a cycle  :)
the slower you go the more you see

Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #167 on: 24 January, 2022, 08:11:12 pm »
While we’re obsessing over what might break, how do hub gears compare to derailleurs for reliability? (Probably not great for in the wild spares though, I know.)

Very unlikely to break. Several orders of magnitude less likely to get spares for Sturmey Archer hubs outside of UK/NL*. I speak from experience.



*Possibly India too.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

JennyB

  • Old enough to know better
Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #168 on: 24 January, 2022, 08:26:43 pm »
Walking introduces the angst of shoe repair and replacement. Far more trouble-free to swim.  ;)

Swimming brings potential for hypothermia and drowning.

Better to stay at home.

J


This thread is starting to remind me of that Dorothy Parker poem about suicide:



Razors pain you;
Rivers are damp;
Acids stain you;
And drugs cause cramp.
Guns aren’t lawful;
Nooses give;
Gas smells awful;
You might as well live.

Jennifer - Walker of hills

Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #169 on: 24 January, 2022, 09:48:53 pm »
:D

Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #170 on: 24 January, 2022, 10:03:01 pm »
I've had experience replacing 8 speed components across nearly all parts of Europe, North America and Asia.  As of 2018-19, they were harder to get hold of in most places than 9, 10 or even 11 speed, and certainly weren't easier to get hold of anywhere at all.  I don't know about Africa or South America but anyone who says otherwise about the continents I mentioned is with the birds.  On my trip, I ended up replacing 8 speed stuff pre-emptively, and usually by UPS from the UK whenever I could stay with friends rather than when my kit wore out, so I didn't end up gaining anything. 

The argument that freewheels are more easily maintainable than freehubs is even odder.  Freehub axles are far stronger and less likely to get bent due to the bearings being further outboard, which is an important consideration for a loaded tourer!  You can change a cassette in the field without a vice, which is also a plus point for freehubs.  The spline tool is the same for either technology, the chain whip is easily improvised (you'll find one of these in every motor garage) and all you then need is a spanner! As QG points out, the spline tool will also change your disc brakes, and is a small thing to carry if you're on a tour long enough to require changing cassettes.

Plus of course, if you get the right rear hub, the freehub is pull-out, which is very useful if one of your bearings does suddenly shatter in the middle of the road in India - see below. 





That hub is cool  8) 8)
The idea of a hub/freewheel system that could be taken off or apart without tools was around for the 1937 Concours des Machines and I could never understand why the idea didn't catch on. In those days it was more usually for replacing spokes (which, at least for me, is also a good arguement for cassettes over freewheels)

I have never argued that a freewheel is easier to repair on the road than a freehub. Freewheel breaks scrap the bugger is how I tend to see things these days, although I did regularly rebuild them in my teens. I have never taken a freehub apart, never had to. I can't remember the last time either broke on me (well a freehub in 2009, might have been bearings - it was a cheap make and I scrapped the hub with no further investigation, no bits so no point in wasting time). A spare freehub would of course be very little trouble to carry.

If you have a means of bypassing the indexing (carrying a spare friction thumb shifter would be one option for bike without dt bosses) you can of course fit the first cassette that comes to hand if your freehub is 8-10 compatible, if you needed that sort of option. Not sure how you would do that with electronic shifting but there's probably a fix.

Many decades ago there was an article about a trio of british tourists riding in Colombia. Their emergency gear was a single speed 3/32" freewheel; they all had double-sided hubs and if one freewheel broke the s/s freewheel would be screwed onto the opposite side of the hub. Wheel reversed and triple chainset meant they could ride to the next bikeshop, the broken down bike having three gears. Once fixed, s/s freewheel removed for the next time!

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #171 on: 08 February, 2022, 03:53:43 pm »
That seems a good price in comparison to what they're charging now for Surly frames and similar. Looking forward to the photos.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #172 on: 08 February, 2022, 04:30:56 pm »
Brilliant !!   This all sounds like a lot of fun.
Rust never sleeps

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Touring Bikes?
« Reply #173 on: 21 February, 2022, 11:26:31 am »
Well that's good.  :thumbsup:

Sh3d pr0n alert too!
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.