Author Topic: LBGT+ In books  (Read 2860 times)

Beardy

  • Shedist
LBGT+ In books
« on: 21 April, 2022, 02:02:41 pm »
In the last four novels I’ve read1 the main protagonist has been a gay man. The first three times this was, I think, a complete coincidence2, the forth being as sequel to the third. As a bloody leftie liberal, this hasn’t bothered me particular;y, but as a heterosexual man the romantic side story has been marginally uncomfortable reading. Thankfully, there has been no explicit descriptions of sex scenes (which, on the occasion they pop up in other novels between hetero couples, I also find a bit unnecessary).

I’m pleased to report that the sexuality of the main protagonist has had little impact on my book choice; I didn’t get the follow on novel from the first of these books because I didn’t particularly like the story, but as reported above, I did get the follow on from the third. I’ll probably get the next in the series from the second book, but as this series focuses on different main characters in each novel, it’s not really relevant to the discussion.

This has given me pause though. People of LGBT+ leanings will have to deal with this in nearly everything, and I wondered if they have a similar disquiet when reading hetero romantic interludes. To that extent the experience3 has edumacated my world view just that little bit more.

Reading is a good thing to do.

1. I say read, I mostly listen to novels these days for a myriad of reasons, including not disturbing Dr Beardy in bed and also the masking of my tinnitus when I’m working on manual tasks.
2. I do wonder though, if I might have now tripped a flag somewhere and future offerings will mostly be the adventures of gay men. I might get bored of that quite fast…
3. I can’t imaging that I’ve not read of gay men in novels before, but getting three in a row kind of made me more aware of it.
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #1 on: 21 April, 2022, 02:26:36 pm »
The only novels that spring to mind with gay men in leading roles that I've read recently-ish are Pat Barker's WW1 series (The Eye in the Door, etc). I think strictly speaking he was bisexual rather than gay. There probably have been others but I can't think of them now.

However, I was wondering just yesterday whether anything can be made of the fact that Breakfast at Tiffany's, one of the most celebrated love stories between a man and a woman of the whole 20th century, was written by a gay man. Same I suppose can be wondered of a (straight? I don't know*) woman writing of a gay man.

*Ed: Wikipedia says she is, or was for many decades till 2009, married to a man. Regeneration Trilogy is the name I was thinking of. And I can't think of any gay characters, male or female, in anything I've read by Truman Capote, but then the time and place might have made that rather difficult. Plus he probably wouldn't want to be typecast as "a gay writer".
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #2 on: 21 April, 2022, 04:56:40 pm »
This has given me pause though. People of LGBT+ leanings will have to deal with this in nearly everything, and I wondered if they have a similar disquiet when reading hetero romantic interludes. To that extent the experience3 has edumacated my world view just that little bit more.

Sort of.  As a card-carrying[1] bisexual, I'm rather un-fussed about the specifics of who does what with what (as long as it's not badly written).  And het relationships are rammed down our throats as aspirational from an early age, so there isn't a weird factor.

What squicks me is relationships with poor boundaries/consent, abusive behaviour, etc.  Obviously that sort of thing can happen in any situation, but in general it tends to be more tolerated - if not actively encouraged - in straight culture, because of gender roles and the power imbalance in mixed-sex relationships.  Straight writers are more likely to portray some types of unhealthy relationships uncritically[2], and tend to have cringeworthy ideas about kink.

Good, nuanced, representation of queer relationships by LGBT+ writers is refreshing due to it's rarity.  Especially in visual media.


[1] Formerly card-carrying, as I seem to have lost my Bisexual Identification Card™.  Must ask Jen for a new one.
[2] "The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there." often applies.

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #3 on: 21 April, 2022, 06:58:29 pm »
I’ve been re-reading a few older books and had to give up as the world has changed. For example, the first Julia Quinn Bridgerton book has one character saying they would like to strangle the other. Er, no.

Same with films - I gave up with “In the line of fire” when Clint Eastwood was sexually assaulting Rene Russo… which was seen as normal back then in the Benny Hill days.
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #4 on: 21 April, 2022, 11:34:39 pm »
Wot, I thought that when they said no it was just them being coy - have years of rom coms lied to me?*

As to het or not relationships in books, I find that mostly when they get to writing about sex, they do it poorly/crudely, which is equally poor irrespective of sexuality.

*: a common rom com trope, which is made worse as this is what is fed to young women/girls and what young men/boys see as what women want (as if they didn’t, why did they drag me to this shite movie when we could be watching 12 monkeys or the like).
simplicity, truth, equality, peace

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #5 on: 21 April, 2022, 11:49:02 pm »
I’ve been re-reading a few older books and had to give up as the world has changed.

Can I add song lyrics, particularly those from the days when popular music had one of more of: intelligible lyrics, dynamic range, actual instruments; a recognisable tune.

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #6 on: 22 April, 2022, 12:52:21 am »
I’ve been re-reading a few older books and had to give up as the world has changed.

Can I add song lyrics, particularly those from the days when popular music had one of more of: intelligible lyrics, dynamic range, actual instruments; a recognisable tune.

…and Auto-Tune hadn’t been invented.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #7 on: 22 April, 2022, 08:30:44 am »
The only novels that spring to mind with gay men in leading roles that I've read recently-ish are Pat Barker's WW1 series (The Eye in the Door, etc). I think strictly speaking he was bisexual rather than gay. There probably have been others but I can't think of them now.

However, I was wondering just yesterday whether anything can be made of the fact that Breakfast at Tiffany's, one of the most celebrated love stories between a man and a woman of the whole 20th century, was written by a gay man. Same I suppose can be wondered of a (straight? I don't know*) woman writing of a gay man.

*Ed: Wikipedia says she is, or was for many decades till 2009, married to a man. Regeneration Trilogy is the name I was thinking of. And I can't think of any gay characters, male or female, in anything I've read by Truman Capote, but then the time and place might have made that rather difficult. Plus he probably wouldn't want to be typecast as "a gay writer".

You have to consider the possibility that Capote was being allegorical, just as EM Forster was in A Room With A View, and Noel Coward was in Still Life (Brief Encounter) - and many other similar examples I could mention.

I vaguely remember being lots of graphic gay sex in Alan Hollinghurst’s The Line Of Beauty but don’t remember being troubled by it. But he’s just a very good writer, so probably did it very artfully. (As others have said, the real problem with sex of all flavours in fiction is that it’s so often very badly written.)
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #8 on: 22 April, 2022, 08:32:08 am »
See also: Andre Gide
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
LBGT+ In books
« Reply #9 on: 22 April, 2022, 08:39:07 am »
Another one I just remembered - Peter Ackroyd’s The Great Fire Of London, his first novel (1982) which he has subsequently disowned, though I remember rather liking it. He has generally shied away from overt depictions of sex in his later works, but there’s plenty of it in this one - I vaguely recall it’s about a young man discovering that he likes boys, and embracing the fact - probably quite autobiographical.

(Reading a synopsis, it seems the book is really about a young film maker directing an adaptation of Little Dorrit, but that’s not what I remember about it most!)
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #10 on: 22 April, 2022, 10:10:34 am »
The only novels that spring to mind with gay men in leading roles that I've read recently-ish are Pat Barker's WW1 series (The Eye in the Door, etc). I think strictly speaking he was bisexual rather than gay. There probably have been others but I can't think of them now.

However, I was wondering just yesterday whether anything can be made of the fact that Breakfast at Tiffany's, one of the most celebrated love stories between a man and a woman of the whole 20th century, was written by a gay man. Same I suppose can be wondered of a (straight? I don't know*) woman writing of a gay man.

*Ed: Wikipedia says she is, or was for many decades till 2009, married to a man. Regeneration Trilogy is the name I was thinking of. And I can't think of any gay characters, male or female, in anything I've read by Truman Capote, but then the time and place might have made that rather difficult. Plus he probably wouldn't want to be typecast as "a gay writer".

You have to consider the possibility that Capote was being allegorical, just as EM Forster was in A Room With A View, and Noel Coward was in Still Life (Brief Encounter) - and many other similar examples I could mention.
Certainly.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

ian

Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #11 on: 22 April, 2022, 10:37:02 am »
Sex in books is, as said, generally terrible (and often even worse in the sweaty palms of good writers, who rob the event of even any erotic sensibilities). Frankly, any sex scene in a book should be judged by a teenage boy, they know what makes it tick.

It's usually plenty good enough to allude to the event as necessitated by the plot without the graphic detail, after all they don't generally feel the need to provide a detailed description of eating lunch or getting dressed or taking a crap.

In episode #6764 of Modern Life is Rubbish, people do really struggle with fiction that portrays characters that don't fit their utterly modern sensibilities, and that characters, well, can be awful shits. Therein lies the brilliance of books like Lolita, of course, a book which I very much doubt could be written today.

Steph

  • Fast. Fast and bulbous. But fluffy.
Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #12 on: 23 April, 2022, 04:01:45 pm »
Almost all of my own books include LGBT relationships, the exception being one of my current novels-in-progress, 'Western Ways'. I normally avoid writing sex scenes like the plague, as I feel that:
They are embarrassing to write, never mind read.
I am not an adequate writer to create something which would not be cringeworthy.
I am far more interested in the relationships between people than what they do with their sweaty bits.

Accordingly, with two exceptions, I write about intimacy up to, as one comment put it, "the bedroom door". I have characters fall in love; they express that in physical ways; the details are not necessary. I have written about gay male couples, lesbians, trans women both straight and gay, trans men and cishet couples. I haven't explicitly covered bi or pan people, or non-binary folk, because I don't know enough about them.

In one horror story, I wrote an explicit sex scene because it was fundamental to the plot. In two other books, where there are particular aspects to the behaviour of a serial paedophile rapist, I included some details. I could see no way round those. In all other aspects, I write about people in love and all that is needed in terms of information is that they can smile at each other.

As an example of other writers and sex scenes, I would offer R.A. Heinlein. While I find his style very, very readable, his obsession with (and even more so, depiction of) sexual activity are risibly awful. I could add some books I have never read and never intend to, but this link will do:

http://www.fiftyshadesgenerator.com/?!
Mae angen arnaf i byw, a fe fydda'i

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #13 on: 23 April, 2022, 09:43:45 pm »

I got fed up of reading about men, and usually straight men. I also realised that most of what I was reading was written by men too. Even a novel about lesbians, that was nominated for awards for lesbian fiction, was written by a man. It really became noticeable when the book hit the (unnecessary) sex scenes...

There are very very very very few times where a sex scene adds to the story line, the only one off hand of the books I've read that added to the story was in a Stieg Larson book, and in that case it's a rape scene.

I wanna read more books about people who I can relate to. I want to see more QUILTBAG characters where the story line isn't about coming out, or dealing with homophobia, just awesome people doing awesome things.

If anyone is looking for books to read, I have enjoyed:

Memory of water - Emmi Itaranta - http://amzn.to/2gPwhGj
City of Woven Streets - Emmi Itaranta - http://amzn.to/2hJgRWt
Book of the unnamed midwife - Meg Ellison - http://amzn.to/2m3giqQ
Book of Etta - Meg Ellison - http://amzn.to/2mRqkQw
Long way to a small angry planet - Becky Chambers - https://amzn.to/2ShNM5G

All of which include QUILTBAG characters, without making them about being QUILTBAG specifically.

If anyone has any other suggestions, I'm a big fan of Fantasy, and Sci-fi, but open to other stuff too.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

ian

Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #14 on: 23 April, 2022, 10:00:34 pm »
Jess, the undead vampire librarian is probably gay. She's not sure, but honestly her problem is less that her love interest is female, more that her love interest is incorporeal on account she's a ghost. The angelic (mostly ex-)assassins, on the other hand, are definitely gay. No purpose in any of this, characters are born the way they are.

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #15 on: 24 April, 2022, 01:28:54 am »
There are very very very very few times where a sex scene adds to the story line, the only one off hand of the books I've read that added to the story was in a Stieg Larson book, and in that case it's a rape scene.

When we saw that in the cinema the bloke sat next to us got up and walked out at that point :-\
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #16 on: 24 April, 2022, 10:38:24 am »
If anyone has any other suggestions, I'm a big fan of Fantasy, and Sci-fi, but open to other stuff too.


How to be Both (Ali Smith) blew my mind and is a frequent recommendation. I'm attached to the Francesco first variant. Fantasy elements, but travelling through art history rather than space.

An Unkindness of Ghosts (Rivers Solomon) is brutal structural racism in deep space, with gender and neuro variant main characters.

Deep Wheel Orcadia (Harry Josephine Giles) looks good. Haven't read it yet.


Beardy

  • Shedist
Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #17 on: 24 April, 2022, 10:56:01 am »
If anyone has any other suggestions, I'm a big fan of Fantasy, and Sci-fi, but open to other stuff too.

The tree I started this thread with all have male protagonists who just happen to be gay. There are no detailed descriptions of sex scenes that I remember. They’re all in the fantasy and SF genres though I don’t believe any of them are going to win any literature awards.

White Trash Warlock - David R Slayton. I didn’t feel like reading the next in the series.
Timekeeper - Tara Sim (I’ve also read the second in the trilogy Chainbreaker)
Chapel of Ease - Alex Bledsoe. This is part of a series of novels all based in the same community but each taking a different lead character. I believe you could read it independently of the others, you’d just be missing some of the background colour of some of the other characters. It’s the only one of the series I’ve read so far where there is a gay character, but the romantic aspects are just part of the character and relationship development and not overly (if at all)  relevant to the main plot.
For every complex problem in the world, there is a simple and easily understood solution that’s wrong.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #18 on: 25 April, 2022, 12:56:17 pm »
Beardy's post, or actually, thinking about his "raising a flag" in the library system, suddenly reminded me that I have definitely read at least one novel in which the main character was a lesbian. There were no sex scenes. But I can't find the title cos the library system won't let me browse my loans back before 2016.

The Quilt did have a sex scene and has now gone back to the bookchazzer. Lawrence Durrell's Alexandria quartet features a gay man but he's not exactly positively depicted. Allusions in Waugh but nothing more.

Jeanette Winterson must have something. Maybe Charles Bukowski too.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #19 on: 25 April, 2022, 01:25:45 pm »
I've previously mentioned Mary Robinette Kowal's Lady Astronaut series.  (It's an alternate history where the space race is kicked into overdrive back in the 1950s because reasons, at a time when if you wanted to put a computer in space it meant that you had to put a woman in space...)  Mostly for its meticulous background research, but also its portrayal of mental health problems and healthy straight relationships.

What's notable is that before she wrote the books, Kowal made a spreadsheet of all the major characters, listing their race, nationality, disability, education, and LGBT status.  And proceeded not to reveal any of the LGBT stuff until the end of the second book and then concentrating on different characters for the third.  So unless you've read the author's notes (or seen the spreadsheet, which did get published on the internet at some point before the second book came out) you read the characters as cis-het by default, in accordance with the 1950s setting.  I have high hopes for the fourth book.

Certainly better than certain authors retrospectively declaring that a character is gay...

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #20 on: 25 April, 2022, 02:06:06 pm »
Certainly better than certain authors retrospectively declaring that a character is gay...

It does seem to be a bit of a box-ticking exercise when they do that*. I'm happy that the sexuality of most characters in most books I read remains entirely irrelevant.


(*Especially if said authors turn out to be rampant transphobes, but let's not go there in this thread)
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #21 on: 26 April, 2022, 08:18:00 am »
It's old (published in 1953) but Mary Renault's The Charioteer has a gay man as its protagonist and is very affecting - well, I found it so. Here's what Wikipedia says:

"The Charioteer is a war novel by Mary Renault first published in London in 1953. Renault's US publisher (Morrow) refused to publish it until 1959 due to its generally positive portrayal of homosexuality. The Charioteer is significant because it features a prominent - and positive - gay theme at an early date and quickly became a bestseller - particularly within the gay community."

Some of her other books, particularly about Alexander the Great, have a gay theme. Renault herself was gay and moved with her partner to South Africa in 1948 so that she could write freely about openly gay characters.

Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #22 on: 28 April, 2022, 04:05:20 pm »
People of LGBT+ leanings will have to deal with this in nearly everything, and I wondered if they have a similar disquiet when reading hetero romantic interludes.

Disquiet is not the word that I'd use, because we're surrounded by heteronormativity from birth so a level of comfort with flagrant heterosexuality ;) is likely ingrained. But representation is very important, and lack of it is tiresome for all minority groups. Too many published authors start from a default position of straight white person. It's why I now actively seek out writers of colour (the Jhalak Prize is a great place to start), and LGBT+ voices (Polari and Lambda prizes).

One of the reasons I so enjoy Ben Aaronovitch's Rivers of London series is the diversity of the characters - in background, ethnicity, religion, sexuality. I don't need a main character to be LGBT+ but I want LGBT+ characters who, as Quixoticgeek says, are "awesome people doing awesome things".

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #23 on: 04 June, 2022, 06:12:29 pm »
Not really the right thread, cos it's straight sex, but I'm not sure what thread if any would be the right one, but as writing about sex has been mentioned, I read this the other day:
Quote
Copulating with William was not unpleasant, she thinks, but neither was it memorable. It was like sleeping with a large and fairly active slab of Philadelphia cream cheese. Emulsified.
Tells us what we need to know about the event and the participants without any extraneous detail of action.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: LBGT+ In books
« Reply #24 on: 06 June, 2022, 07:06:32 am »
No-one's mentioned Kirk/Spock or Harry/Draco yet.  What's interesting about that stuff is that it's almost all written by straight women.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.