Author Topic: Grammar that makes you cringe  (Read 665994 times)

Mr Larrington

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6350 on: 31 December, 2021, 12:15:10 pm »
Whereas in That Yorkshire it'd be “that wants eatin'”.
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Salvatore

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6351 on: 31 December, 2021, 03:20:21 pm »
I cringe when a website asks for the expiration date of my credit/debit card, not its expiry date.

I don't cringe, but I was somewhat alarmed to see that my AUK life membership has an Expiration date. Do they know something I don't?
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et avec John, excellent lecteur de road-book, on s'en est sortis sans erreur

T42

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6352 on: 31 December, 2021, 03:38:10 pm »
I cringe when a website asks for the expiration date of my credit/debit card, not its expiry date.

Expiry is a nice word, but somewhat irregular, whereas expiration is both valid and boringly regular.  It'd be nice to think, though, that we could replace that cumbersome -ation with -y everywhere: nation would become ny and ration would atrophy to ry, which is OK with enough butter. Station would become sty, a fair description of the Underground. Lots of other cases may be found, collect the full set.

I think my blood sugar is too high again.
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Kim

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6353 on: 31 December, 2021, 06:50:24 pm »
It'd be nice to think, though, that we could replace that cumbersome -ation with -y everywhere: nation would become ny and ration would atrophy to ry, which is OK with enough butter. Station would become sty, a fair description of the Underground. Lots of other cases may be found, collect the full set.

I vaguely recall that Grade 2 Braille actually does this.  But possibly only at the end of words.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6354 on: 31 December, 2021, 07:04:45 pm »
It's not only tricky for grammar - lack of expiration can, perversely, lead to ...... expiration.  I'n't Inglish grate?! (nods to Fast Show).

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6355 on: 01 January, 2022, 10:37:13 am »
Have we done the use of "must..." to mean "I really, really want..."? Seems to be becoming ever-more prevalent, but just exemplified in this from Cycling UK:
"Govt must promote Highway Code changes..."

Now that's a really good idea, but nothing in the message explains why the Government "must" do it - only why they really should and CUK really, really hopes that they will (as indeed do I). Not getting at CUK for this, as everyone is doing it, but it's logically impossible for any Government to do everything that they now "must" do, and the word is losing its force as a result.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6356 on: 01 January, 2022, 10:40:26 am »
I cringe when a website asks for the expiration date of my credit/debit card, not its expiry date.

Expiry is a nice word, but somewhat irregular, whereas expiration is both valid and boringly regular.  It'd be nice to think, though, that we could replace that cumbersome -ation with -y everywhere: nation would become ny and ration would atrophy to ry, which is OK with enough butter. Station would become sty, a fair description of the Underground. Lots of other cases may be found, collect the full set.

I think my blood sugar is too high again.
We hereby heartily congratulate and recommend T42 as the reincarnation of Noah Webst.
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mattc

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6357 on: 01 January, 2022, 10:55:15 am »
Have we done the use of "must..." to mean "I really, really want..."? Seems to be becoming ever-more prevalent, but just exemplified in this from Cycling UK:
"Govt must promote Highway Code changes..."

Now that's a really good idea, but nothing in the message explains why the Government "must" do it - only why they really should and CUK really, really hopes that they will (as indeed do I). Not getting at CUK for this, as everyone is doing it, but it's logically impossible for any Government to do everything that they now "must" do, and the word is losing its force as a result.
That one's an arms race. It's been common usage for years when stating policy opinions.

If you say anything less strong about government, you'll look uncommitted and feeble compared to all those shouting
"This government MUST change their policy on ... blah blah ..."
Has never ridden RAAM
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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6358 on: 01 January, 2022, 11:25:15 am »
Which goes back to that useful book on why language changes. Speakers and writers look constantly for ways to emphasise their points, and so choose words that are not strictly appropriate, such as "must" when they mean, "in my opinion, should". So, the perceived meaning of must is in fact weakened over time, until no-one remembers it ever meaning anything more than a mere statement of opinion, and one opinion clamouring among many at that.

At that point, having collectively wrecked that word, the same speakers and writers (or rather, their successors) abandon it and move on to vandalise the next :demon:

Of course, in this sense, we are all speakers and writers.

mattc

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6359 on: 01 January, 2022, 11:43:11 am »
Which goes back to that useful book on why language changes. Speakers and writers look constantly for ways to emphasise their points, and so choose words that are not strictly appropriate, such as "must" when they mean, "in my opinion, should". So, the perceived meaning of must is in fact weakened over time, until no-one remembers it ever meaning anything more than a mere statement of opinion, and one opinion clamouring among many at that.

At that point, having collectively wrecked that word, the same speakers and writers (or rather, their successors) abandon it and move on to vandalise the next :demon:

Of course, in this sense, we are all speakers and writers.
I agree 110%
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Mr Larrington

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6360 on: 01 January, 2022, 11:55:51 am »
Which goes back to that useful book on why language changes. Speakers and writers look constantly for ways to emphasise their points, and so choose words that are not strictly appropriate, such as "must" when they mean, "in my opinion, should". So, the perceived meaning of must is in fact weakened over time, until no-one remembers it ever meaning anything more than a mere statement of opinion, and one opinion clamouring among many at that.

At that point, having collectively wrecked that word, the same speakers and writers (or rather, their successors) abandon it and move on to vandalise the next :demon:

Of course, in this sense, we are all speakers and writers.
I agree literally 110%

FTFY :demon:
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Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6361 on: 02 January, 2022, 01:11:42 pm »
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The Guardian says it’s fine to split infinitives because “stubbornly to resist so can sound pompous and awkward”.

But "stubbornly to so resist" can also sound pompous and awkward. I've nothing against splitting infinitives, nor in favour of it, but the problem with that sentence is the "so" not the unsplit infinitive IMO.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/01/different-from-is-correct-and-iconic-is-meaningless-what-i-know-after-two-decades-as-a-subeditor
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6362 on: 02 January, 2022, 04:59:09 pm »
And "stubbornly so to resist" can sound pompous and natural, if you are naturally pompous ...

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6363 on: 03 January, 2022, 04:32:17 am »
See also “bring” for “take”, and “brought” for “taken”.

Several decades ago I heard a fellow USAnian, born and raised in the northeastern part of the land, but by then a resident of the southeast for many years, state that he had "carried my pickup truck over to my brother-in-law".  "Carry" in this context meaning "take".

The Appalachian region of USAnia was originally settled by persons of Scots and Irish descent, and it is said that some of their peculiarities of dialect are remnants of the language of the 1700s. 

meddyg

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6364 on: 03 January, 2022, 08:34:40 am »
'Early doors' when people mean 'early.'

Romesh Ranganathan on telly the other night-
well he has to be down with the kids !

Paul

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6365 on: 03 January, 2022, 08:52:08 am »
Have we had “Back in [date]” yet?

I can’t put my finger on why it bothers me so much, but it has an irk-level approaching the unnecessary use of “So” at the start of sentences.

I think it’s its ubiquity that’s the problem. It almost seems that radio presenters (particularly) can’t refer to any period before the current month without adding “back”. I wonder if it is intended to signify great change? I suspect so. And perhaps because of some significant changes, its use has become more common but, like swearing, it loses its impact when overused.
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Salvatore

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6366 on: 03 January, 2022, 09:16:57 am »
'Early doors' when people mean 'early.'

Romesh Ranganathan on telly the other night-
well he has to be down with the kids !

Presumably you object to early 20th century theatre posters?


If you wanted to watch from a part of the theatre where seat reservation wasn't possible, you could pay extra to get in early. Known as 'early doors'.

Edit: Some references from that time suggest that there were separate entrances if you paid extra. Presumably signed 'Early Door'.

Whole poster from 1912 can be seen here.
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et avec John, excellent lecteur de road-book, on s'en est sortis sans erreur

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6367 on: 03 January, 2022, 09:21:08 am »
I like 'early doors'. From its sketchy etymology to its leaching from 90s football circles into more common usage. I'd be surprised if Romesh Ranganathan used it to curry favour with the kids: it doesn't sound like a phrase they'd use.

T42

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6368 on: 03 January, 2022, 10:30:51 am »
In the commentary in a YT video on the Art Nouveau illustrations of Alphonse Mucha, "these were created as goulash paintings" instead of gouache.

Of course, maybe there is a technique using beef stew as a medium.  My mum once told me that when I was a baby I used to throw spoonfuls of mashed potato at the window.
I've dusted off all those old bottles and set them up straight

Mr Larrington

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6369 on: 03 January, 2022, 11:02:57 am »
I'm sure some Turner Prize hopeful has used spicy cow-based foodstuff as a medium.  It's a metaphor, or something.
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6370 on: 03 January, 2022, 11:33:39 am »
In the commentary in a YT video on the Art Nouveau illustrations of Alphonse Mucha, "these were created as goulash paintings" instead of gouache.

Of course, maybe there is a technique using beef stew as a medium.  My mum once told me that when I was a baby I used to throw spoonfuls of mashed potato at the window.
Load of old pollocks!
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

meddyg

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6371 on: 03 January, 2022, 12:22:40 pm »
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Presumably you object to early 20th century theatre posters?

Of course not, Salvatore - and it's interesting to find where it arose - but it doesn't seem to have persisted in common usage since 1912.
When it pops up in the media - e.g Guardian columnist
"Jeremy Vine, hosting Radio 2's music industry debate last night, got a dig in early doors about his hallowed predecessor on the station." it's not adding anything over 'early.'

likewise footballer-speak

"We’ve got to make sure we don’t concede, especially early doors, but I think it’s definitely game on if we score first.

Sporting Life, 3 Jan. 2010."

One definition  says 'it's Cockney rhyming slang!'

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6372 on: 03 January, 2022, 12:30:10 pm »
It doesn't add any meaning but it does add style or "attitude" just as "got a dig in" takes four words to add no meaning to "criticised". Whether you like that style is another question.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

meddyg

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6373 on: 03 January, 2022, 12:33:17 pm »
Early doors again....
One definition  says 'it's Cockney rhyming slang!'*


*"women's drawers" apparently...

If however you're saying 'better get to the pub early doors, 'cos the rugby boys pile in at 6pm'
it makes (perfect) sense.

But I don't have to include it in my own vocabulary

hellymedic

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #6374 on: 03 January, 2022, 04:02:50 pm »
Twitter today.
Doctor discussing Nigella's Clementine cake:
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This is a brilliant and easy cake I have made for years
My one tip:
Don’t forget to keep an eye on the simmering clementines …I ruined a (wedding present) Le Creuset pan
Thankfully my (late) wife was understanding and I found a replacement on eBay

I trust he didn't find a replacement for his late wife on ebay...