Author Topic: Grammar that makes you cringe  (Read 835139 times)

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #200 on: 25 June, 2009, 05:08:00 pm »
"You and I" when it should be "you and me".

Ooh! That one really winds me up. You could argue that the error rarely leads to ambiguity and is therefore excusable, but what irks me about it is that there seems to be a widespread but misguided notion that "You and me" is always wrong, so people deliberately and consciously use "You and I" even when it is incorrect, thereby demonstrating that they haven't got a fucking clue about the simple grammatical rule behind it.

Dangling participles are another of my pet hates, although they can be unintentionally amusing.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #201 on: 25 June, 2009, 05:31:32 pm »
The creation of 'correct grammar' may well be designed to exclude and control - that has indeed been my argument. But not grammar in general - that is simply an emergent property of language.

I think there's a difference between what you might call "formal grammar" and "natural grammar". The latter is inherent in language and the same for all languages - what you get when you reduce language to pure logic. Formal grammar is an artificial construction, an arbitrary social code, a kind of verbal etiquette. (To be honest, I'm paraphrasing what bits I vaguely remember from studying Wittgenstein many years ago, and I suspect his ideas are considered out of date now anyway.)

We have to all do it the same to a certain extent, otherwise we wouldn't be able to understand each other, but a few misplaced apostrophes here and there aren't really all that important.

(FM, I think what I'm saying, in a very roundabout way, is that I agree with your comments.)

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Flying_Monkey

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #202 on: 25 June, 2009, 06:51:13 pm »
"You and I" when it should be "you and me". Also see "He & I" in place of "him & me", etc.

Why does this actually matter? I mean, really? This is a perfect example of an obsession with 'correctness' over communication. There is no confusion of meaning here. 


eck

  • Gonna ride my bike until I get home...
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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #203 on: 25 June, 2009, 07:10:12 pm »
"You and I" when it should be "you and me". Also see "He & I" in place of "him & me", etc.

Why does this actually matter? I mean, really? This is a perfect example of an obsession with 'correctness' over communication. There is no confusion of meaning here. 

Well, it depends what you mean by actually matter, I suppose. It may not actually matter to say something like, "Bad grammar makes you and I cringe", but would you say "Bad grammar makes I cringe"?

While I'm in pedant mode, I remember a nice illustration of why punctuation really matters (sometimes):
Don't stop.
or
Don't, stop.

All the same to you?  ;)
It's a bit weird, but actually quite wonderful.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #204 on: 25 June, 2009, 07:26:00 pm »
"Bad grammar makes I cringe"?

That's Bristolian, that is.
It is simpler than it looks.

rower40

  • Not my boat. Now sold.
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #205 on: 25 June, 2009, 07:44:57 pm »
"Bad grammar makes you and I cringe"
.. is an example of the meaning being totally mangled by using "I" rather than "me".  It's a perfectly acceptable sentence, with two verbs, joined with the conjunction "and".
I.e.  "Bad grammar makes you, and I cringe"
But it doesn't mean what was intended.

I like searching for the unintended meaning in what people say/write.  :D
Be Naughty; save Santa a trip

eck

  • Gonna ride my bike until I get home...
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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #206 on: 25 June, 2009, 08:11:58 pm »
I.e.  "Bad grammar makes you, and I cringe"
But it doesn't mean what was intended.

While I'm in pedant mode, I remember a nice illustration of why punctuation really matters (sometimes):
Don't stop.
or
Don't, stop.

All the same to you?  ;)
;)   :thumbsup:
It's a bit weird, but actually quite wonderful.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #207 on: 25 June, 2009, 10:11:28 pm »
There's also an important difference between "fewer difficult problems" and "less difficult problems". In the first case, the number is reduced, and in the second, the difficulty.

Perhaps more commonly, though, good punctuation makes it easier to read, and assimilate, text quickly.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #208 on: 26 June, 2009, 12:31:27 am »
"You and I" when it should be "you and me". Also see "He & I" in place of "him & me", etc.

Why does this actually matter? I mean, really? This is a perfect example of an obsession with 'correctness' over communication. There is no confusion of meaning here. 
What smutchin said. The error is almost always a deliberate choice, rather than a simple mistake. What really winds me up about the misuse of "you & I" in place of "you & me" is that the people saying it think they're avoiding a lower-class error, but are substituting a different - and to my mind, worse - one. It's one of the many cases of effort put into doing something which would be better not done.

BTW, the remnants of cases preserved in pronouns are a relic of times when the difference really did matter, as case - and case only, not word order - indicated the subject & object of a sentence.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

LEE

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #209 on: 26 June, 2009, 01:31:16 am »
"You and I" when it should be "you and me".

Ooh! That one really winds me up. You could argue that the error rarely leads to ambiguity and is therefore excusable, but what irks me about it is that there seems to be a widespread but misguided notion that "You and me" is always wrong, so people deliberately and consciously use "You and I" even when it is incorrect, thereby demonstrating that they haven't got a fucking clue about the simple grammatical rule behind it.

Dangling participles are another of my pet hates, although they can be unintentionally amusing.

d.


I'm sorry Smutchin but you seriously need to loosen up about this.  Who gives a shit?  We all know what they mean and it's snobbish to pretend, or care, otherwise.

Edit.  I think there's a case for following the example of Theodore Roosvelt and making "English" easier to spell.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #210 on: 26 June, 2009, 08:01:49 am »
Would "Inglish" be easier? ;D

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #211 on: 26 June, 2009, 08:05:58 am »
I suppose he could have started with his name?
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #212 on: 26 June, 2009, 08:12:22 am »
 ;D ;D ;D

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #213 on: 26 June, 2009, 09:21:02 am »
I'm sorry Smutchin but you seriously need to loosen up about this.

Pfft. That might be true if I didn't have a sense of perspective about it.

Quote
Who gives a shit?  We all know what they mean and it's snobbish to pretend, or care, otherwise.

If I thought it mattered, I'd be more circumspect about discussing it in an internet forum.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #214 on: 26 June, 2009, 09:47:07 am »
What really winds me up about the misuse of "you & I" in place of "you & me" is that the people saying it think they're avoiding a lower-class error, but are substituting a different - and to my mind, worse - one.
I think you're being a bit harsh here. Two reasons:
- you shouldn't presume _why_ people do something (without good evidence).
- I suspect many people who make this mistake are just making a mistake. They 'remember' being taught this as the right way to do it. Is there any harm in _trying_ to do something the right way?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Thor

  • Super-sonnicus idioticus
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #215 on: 26 June, 2009, 09:51:37 am »
From this morning's Metro

Quote
One in ten people in Europe is drinking themselves to death

 ::-)
It was a day like any other in Ireland, only it wasn't raining

Flying_Monkey

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #216 on: 26 June, 2009, 09:55:46 am »
"You and I" when it should be "you and me". Also see "He & I" in place of "him & me", etc.

Why does this actually matter? I mean, really? This is a perfect example of an obsession with 'correctness' over communication. There is no confusion of meaning here.  

Well, it depends what you mean by actually matter, I suppose. It may not actually matter to say something like, "Bad grammar makes you and I cringe", but would you say "Bad grammar makes I cringe"?

While I'm in pedant mode, I remember a nice illustration of why punctuation really matters (sometimes):
Don't stop.
or
Don't, stop.

All the same to you?  ;)

You're not being a pedant, you're just confused! In fact you are confounding two completely different issues and trying to make them out to be the same.

If you read what I wrote, you will notice that I specifically mentioned that there was no confusion in meaning in the situation that annoyed Bledlow. And indeed there is not confusion of meaning to say 'bad grammar makes I cringe', in fact that is a not uncommon west country dialect usage (as Jaded noted). Just try and tell me that everyone who says that in the west country is 'wrong'...

You second example however is of a completely different situation - where punctuation can cause meaning to change leading to confusion. In that situation, as in the first, I am in favour only of avoiding such confusion.

Let's get this straight, most of what is seen as 'correct' English is simply an imposed and artificial set of rather arbitrary rules imposed by a very small, self-selecting group of C18th grammarians who were trying to 'fix' the language in place and get rid of class and regional variation. They utterly misunderstood the way languages evolve and change.

Language does what language does. You can't make it stop or behave how you want. You can only speak and write how you wish and hope, if that is indeed your hope, that others might chose to do the same.

IMHO, y'all all jus chill now, d'ya hear?

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #217 on: 26 June, 2009, 10:04:07 am »
Meaning rather than grammar, but I really dislike use of cannot when speaker means will not. Politicians particular culprits. "Government can't [do X]" when X is somthing that they COULD do and which Governments have done in the past. What they mean is "WON'T".

Bit like "can I?" and "may I?" Soon learned the difference at school. "Can I open the window, sir?" "Yes." Get up and do so...."Write out 100 times...."
Let right or wrong alone decide
God was never on your side.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #218 on: 26 June, 2009, 10:11:16 am »
'Less' and 'fewer'... my personal bugbear.

Even the Beeb is failing on this these days.  Only Evan Davies seems to understand the difference.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #219 on: 26 June, 2009, 10:22:05 am »
Let's get this straight, most of what is seen as 'correct' English is simply an imposed and artificial set of rather arbitrary rules imposed by a very small, self-selecting group of C18th grammarians who were trying to 'fix' the language in place and get rid of class and regional variation.
So why do you choose to write 99% of your posts in this artificial and arbitrary fashion? Are you just showing off?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Flying_Monkey

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #220 on: 26 June, 2009, 10:23:37 am »
Even the Beeb is failing on this these days. 

The Beeb has also historically been one of the worst offenders in trying to eradicate regional and class variety. It has also, fortunately, failed. Listeners schooled on this ridiculous elitism were apparently still objecting to Scottish accents on the radio in the 1980s...

These days however, the Beeb is more realistic about language realities and language chance. So much the better.

Flying_Monkey

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #221 on: 26 June, 2009, 10:25:23 am »
Let's get this straight, most of what is seen as 'correct' English is simply an imposed and artificial set of rather arbitrary rules imposed by a very small, self-selecting group of C18th grammarians who were trying to 'fix' the language in place and get rid of class and regional variation.
So why do you choose to write 99% of your posts in this artificial and arbitrary fashion? Are you just showing off?

Is there any need to be so offensive?

The answer is obvious - I was brought up in the same tradition. But I am aware of it. And I am interested in the subject. And I do not try to impose my way of expressing myself on anyone else.

Thanks for your interest in me, now let's get back to the subject eh?

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #222 on: 26 June, 2009, 10:27:59 am »
So why do you choose to write 99% of your posts in this artificial and arbitrary fashion? Are you just showing off?

Is there any harm in trying to do something the right way? ;)

I suspect FM is taking an extreme position for the sake of making a point. Grammar does matter up to a point but it's silly to be pedantic about the details, because they are just arbitrary rules and it's the underlying meaning that matters. If your meaning is clear, a misplaced apostrophe or two really isn't important.

I totally agree with all that, but this thread is titled "Grammar that makes you cringe". I like a well-formed sentence for the same reason that I'd rather hear a piano played properly than listen to someone bash out Chopsticks with two fingers.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #223 on: 26 June, 2009, 10:29:54 am »
'Less' and 'fewer'... my personal bugbear.

Even the Beeb is failing on this these days.  Only Evan Davies seems to understand the difference.

But most of that is impromptu speech such as in live interviews. It's much more difficult to be grammatically correct when you're speaking on the hoof.

Flying_Monkey

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #224 on: 26 June, 2009, 10:39:07 am »
I suspect FM is taking an extreme position for the sake of making a point. Grammar does matter up to a point but it's silly to be pedantic about the details, because they are just arbitrary rules and it's the underlying meaning that matters. If your meaning is clear, a misplaced apostrophe or two really isn't important.

well, yes and no! Actually, I am pretty relaxed about the use of language so long as it communicates. I don't think this is an 'extreme' position, I think it's a recognition of reality. As I've said, the only concerns I have relate to miscommunication, and even then, if it isn't actually dangerous, these situations can be easily remedied by further discussion or just saying 'what did you mean?' (or perhaps that should be 'WTF' or  :-\ these days?  ;) )

The whole 'cringing' thing is interesting because it shows how much we are still under the thumb of those rigid and dried up old schoolmasters whether we like it or not!

Laters.