FTP

[Andy W]

With the advent of direct drive trainers one would assume greater consistency and reliability with regard to FTP tests. If one uses the same protocol ,ie 20 minutes test or ramp test it should be the case after a few months to establish whether there is an increase or decrease or perhaps a stable FTP level of power output from the person being tested.
 If this is the case,  do any riders and especially distance riders ie, Audax participants have a notable performance outcome relative to their improved or decrease in FTP?
I ask  the question as I'm interested to know whether one hour or so threshold sessions improve average power and thus speed over longer distances, say 100km or more.

[toontra]

If this is the case,  do any riders and especially distance riders ie, Audax participants have a notable performance outcome relative to their improved or decrease in FTP?
I ask  the question as I'm interested to know whether one hour or so threshold sessions improve average power and thus speed over longer distances, say 100km or more.

Good question.  According to TrainerRoad you will see improvements accross all disciplines if you follow the programme tailored specifically to your needs.

I'm in my first full year of TrainerRoad 4 days a week (plus the other 3 days in the gym doing weights).  My FTP is gradually rising.  I'll be able to tell you if it makes any difference to audax-length rides by the summer 

Mind you, at my age it's also about retaining ability as much as improvement.

[Notfromrugby]

Mind you, at my age it's also about retaining ability as much as improvement.

What age, if I am allowed to ask?

[toontra]

Mind you, at my age it's also about retaining ability as much as improvement.

What age, if I am allowed to ask?

By all means - 66.  A youngster in audax terms 

[Lightning Phil]

With the advent of direct drive trainers one would assume greater consistency and reliability with regard to FTP tests. If one uses the same protocol ,ie 20 minutes test or ramp test it should be the case after a few months to establish whether there is an increase or decrease or perhaps a stable FTP level of power output from the person being tested.
 If this is the case,  do any riders and especially distance riders ie, Audax participants have a notable performance outcome relative to their improved or decrease in FTP?
I ask  the question as I'm interested to know whether one hour or so threshold sessions improve average power and thus speed over longer distances, say 100km or more.

You’ve got to also be aware of the power to speed relationships. The amount of power required rises in proportion to the cube of the speed.

The following are from an online calculator  based on a drop bar road bike config

For instance maintain 100 watts on flat and you’ll get approx 24 km/h
Add another 50 watts to 150 watts you get approx 28 km/h
Add another 50 watts to 200 watts you get approx 31 km/h
Add another 50 watts to 250 watts you get approx 34 km/h

So whilst you may see ftp increases that in itself may not translate out on the road unless the increases are substantial.  You also need to wary of ftp tests being very short, which means you may get a non trivial anaerobic contribution , inflating the figure.

Interestingly there’s a paper out there that says there’s a significant correlation between fat oxidation levels and iron man performance. The best athletes their fat oxidation at 250 watts as at  least 90% of the value at 100 watts. The others are purely glycosis by 250 watts. This is independent of Vo2 max.  High intensity won’t develop your fat oxidation capability.  For that you’ll need to add the long duration low intensity rides as well. Plus diet on top if you want.

[morbihan]

If this is the case,  do any riders and especially distance riders ie, Audax participants have a notable performance outcome relative to their improved or decrease in FTP?
I ask  the question as I'm interested to know whether one hour or so threshold sessions improve average power and thus speed over longer distances, say 100km or more.

Good question.  According to TrainerRoad you will see improvements accross all disciplines if you follow the programme tailored specifically to your needs.

I'm in my first full year of TrainerRoad 4 days a week (plus the other 3 days in the gym doing weights).  My FTP is gradually rising.  I'll be able to tell you if it makes any difference to audax-length rides by the summer 

Mind you, at my age it's also about retaining ability as much as improvement.

An improved FTP for me is focused primarily on upping the average speed on multi day endurance events. I appreciate its only a small part of the jigsaw and there are plenty of other skills to hone that will help efficiencies and save time. The idea that you can ride 1km fatser  over the day for the same effort and be 15km further up the road is a serious carrot. In addition its good time management for training rather than simply bashing out massive miles every week.
I do some road racing here too in season, and also enjoy the Zwift racing events so its not totally geared to the ultra training.
I "think" my SOG will improve with the training...but then my new bike set up is slower.....but more comfortable, which opens up a whole other can of worms.

I'm mid fifties so somewhat down the road of toontra where a victory is simply keeping the ftp from slipping.

[L CC]

The following are from an online calculator  based on a drop bar road bike config

For instance maintain 100 watts on flat and you’ll get approx 24 km/h
Add another 50 watts to 150 watts you get approx 28 km/h
Add another 50 watts to 200 watts you get approx 31 km/h
Add another 50 watts to 250 watts you get approx 34 km/h

I don't know what world those measurements come from but it's not the UK.

[Notfromrugby]

The following are from an online calculator  based on a drop bar road bike config

For instance maintain 100 watts on flat and you’ll get approx 24 km/h
Add another 50 watts to 150 watts you get approx 28 km/h
Add another 50 watts to 200 watts you get approx 31 km/h
Add another 50 watts to 250 watts you get approx 34 km/h

I don't know what world those measurements come from but it's not the UK.

They are not a million miles off. I can do a bit better, 40 km/h with 250W in a TT and that is with a road bike and no aero bits and bobs.

[Notfromrugby]

FTP has increased a lot lately... only thing I changed is that I am doing Veganuary and maybe pushing a bit harder on the turbo, courtesy of virtual racing.
Latest figure is 4.2 W/kg... it was abut 3.8-3.9 back in the autumn 

[Frank9755]

If this is the case,  do any riders and especially distance riders ie, Audax participants have a notable performance outcome relative to their improved or decrease in FTP?
I ask  the question as I'm interested to know whether one hour or so threshold sessions improve average power and thus speed over longer distances, say 100km or more.

Good question.  According to TrainerRoad you will see improvements accross all disciplines if you follow the programme tailored specifically to your needs.

I'm in my first full year of TrainerRoad 4 days a week (plus the other 3 days in the gym doing weights).  My FTP is gradually rising.  I'll be able to tell you if it makes any difference to audax-length rides by the summer 

Mind you, at my age it's also about retaining ability as much as improvement.

An improved FTP for me is focused primarily on upping the average speed on multi day endurance events. I appreciate its only a small part of the jigsaw and there are plenty of other skills to hone that will help efficiencies and save time. The idea that you can ride 1km fatser  over the day for the same effort and be 15km further up the road is a serious carrot. In addition its good time management for training rather than simply bashing out massive miles every week.
I do some road racing here too in season, and also enjoy the Zwift racing events so its not totally geared to the ultra training.
I "think" my SOG will improve with the training...but then my new bike set up is slower.....but more comfortable, which opens up a whole other can of worms.

I'm mid fifties so somewhat down the road of toontra where a victory is simply keeping the ftp from slipping.

One thing that I have learned in an ultra-racing context is that increasing your FTP is one of the harder ways to increase your speed, and you have to bump it up quite a lot to offset other things which have a negative impact.  For example, a typical ultraracer who uses a dynamo should expect to get similar benefit from switching to batteries vs a 10% increase in FTP.  One is a lot easier to achieve than the other!

[toontra]

One thing that I have learned in an ultra-racing context is that increasing your FTP is one of the harder ways to increase your speed, and you have to bump it up quite a lot to offset other things which have a negative impact.  For example, a typical ultraracer who uses a dynamo should expect to get similar benefit from switching to batteries vs a 10% increase in FTP.  One is a lot easier to achieve than the other!

Indeed.  It would be pretty silly to focus on FTP improvement without sorting out all the other performance-enhancing elements (equipment, aerodynamics, clothing, etc.) first.  That's a lot easier and quicker (if not cheaper!).

For ultra-racing, even FTP probably plays a back seat to endurance-specific training and psychology.

[Frank9755]

Definitely still worth doing though (and I am doing it). 

There is a risk if you only focus on the non-cycling stuff and doing the long slow rides that you do need to do, that you end up riding long distances increasingly slowly.  Morbihan's road and Zwift racing are useful speed work, but I do worry that he has negated all his hard work by going for a slower bike! I hope we get to discuss it in person one day!

[Notfromrugby]

FTP is threshold. I have increased it a lot and certainly can do a 25 TT a lot faster than I used to. Hasn’t made a great deal of difference to how fast or how far I can go in a day.
You still get tired, you still have aches, you still need to sleep and eat… the average speed over a day goes up only very marginally…

If I was to consider multi day events (which I no longer am), I would aim at sleep efficiency. It takes me ages to fall asleep and that’s a massive disadvantage over someone who can drop down like a stone in minutes.

[morbihan]

Definitely still worth doing though (and I am doing it). 

There is a risk if you only focus on the non-cycling stuff and doing the long slow rides that you do need to do, that you end up riding long distances increasingly slowly.  Morbihan's road and Zwift racing are useful speed work, but I do worry that he has negated all his hard work by going for a slower bike! I hope we get to discuss it in person one day!

I hope so too Frank
It remains to be seen if the more comfortable but slower set up is the right call. I should have a definitive answer on (hopefully) 9th of August.

[morbihan]

Ive continued to do a couple of races a week on Zwift this year and relished (I don't know if you can call it enjoyed!) the challenge of hanging in with the peloton whenever possible.
I'm not really sure why the virtual riding has clicked and stuck this time around after I initially drifted away from it a year or so ago, but it has.
Maybe a better indoor set up, maybe sub conscious bias due to the pandemic and being locked down, or likely boredom of living on a small training ground outside with sketchy traffic. Probably a combination of all of the above.
Ive mixed it up with a good few virtual climbs as practice for the focus on endurance racing too.
One issue I have with the Zwift racing format, though, is my ftp has crept up on Zwift power putting me perilously close to a required A cat race.
In actuality I'm hanging off in the B cat much of the time. For the races you have no choice, you are dumped in the cat that fits your power profile.
I think this is a bit of flaw in how they work out your best suited category.
To that end I jumped into a group ride yesterday instead of a race. Perhaps that's the way to go.
I'm still of the thinking that a higher ftp will result in a better average speed over an ultra race so long as all the other moving parts click too.
Recent recovery rides outside have definitely seen an increase in average speed at the same BPM.

[toontra]

Maybe a better indoor set up

That's helped me a lot.  I'm lucky to have a spare room in the house (well, half a spare room anyway) and I've made it as pleasant as possible with an array of voice-controlled fans, pretty lights, music, screens and mobile tables (so things are close to hand).  It makes the notion of going for a workout less daunting.

[Frank9755]

I'm still of the thinking that a higher ftp will result in a better average speed over an ultra race so long as all the other moving parts click too.
Recent recovery rides outside have definitely seen an increase in average speed at the same BPM.

Agree - sounds encouraging!

[mrcharly-YHT]

I tried the 20min  FTP test in the EXR app (for rowing).

Caveats; I was feeling ill, so expected a low reading, plus I didn't hammer myself (feeling ill).

Although I sustained 2:07 for 20min, the EXR app calculated my ftp was 2:29 (106W). Something odd there.

2:07 pace is 170W, according to a pace/watt calculator. That would give an FTP of 160W, which is similar to 190W for cycling. Sounds about right, given my current state of fitness.

There is also a ramp test, which I'll try when I feel better.