Author Topic: Grammar that makes you cringe  (Read 835067 times)

mattc

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #225 on: 26 June, 2009, 10:46:35 am »
'Less' and 'fewer'... my personal bugbear.

Even the Beeb is failing on this these days.  Only Evan Davies seems to understand the difference.

But most of that is impromptu speech such as in live interviews. It's much more difficult to be grammatically correct when you're speaking on the hoof.

People also seem to get upset by stuff written on bbc.co.uk, forgetting that most of it is dashed off more quickly than we type posts on here.
Has never ridden RAAM
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #226 on: 26 June, 2009, 10:52:29 am »


The whole 'cringing' thing is interesting because it shows how much we are still under the thumb of those rigid and dried up old schoolmasters whether we like it or not!


I'll bet there's at least one person on here who had the difference between "less" and "fewer" drummed into
them pretty hard from a rigid schoolmaster.
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POTD. (decade) :thumbsup:

mattc

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #227 on: 26 June, 2009, 11:06:03 am »
Is there any need to be so offensive?
Didn't mean to be ...
Quote
The answer is obvious - I was brought up in the same tradition. But I am aware of it. And I am interested in the subject. And I do not try to impose my way of expressing myself on anyone else.

Thanks for your interest in me, now let's get back to the subject eh?
... I thought part of the subject was Why Do We Speak/Write The Way We Do. You've made various statements on the choices made by others, so I thought this was a relevant question. Mkay?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Really Ancien

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #228 on: 26 June, 2009, 11:26:22 am »
I have grammar that makes me smile, that exalteth me in fact. There's a cadence in certain phrases that carries a whole series of meanings which derive from the way they're constructed. It's the source of much rhetoric and binds together much of the English speaking world. Probably the greatest exponent in recent times was Prince, 'I can see whomever I want; in 'Nothing compares 2 U' conveys a brittle feeling due to the too careful grammar. My favourite one of his songs reliant on the rhetoric of grammar is this one.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/TpOW4LLRRTA&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/TpOW4LLRRTA&rel=1</a>
Music is a grammar as well of course.

Damon.

Flying_Monkey

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #229 on: 26 June, 2009, 11:49:39 am »
... I thought part of the subject was Why Do We Speak/Write The Way We Do. You've made various statements on the choices made by others, so I thought this was a relevant question. Mkay?

Whatever...

Eccentrica Gallumbits

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #230 on: 26 June, 2009, 07:31:58 pm »
From this morning's Metro

Quote
One in ten people in Europe is drinking themselves to death

 ::-)

Is they reading this thread?
My feminist marxist dialectic brings all the boys to the yard.


Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #231 on: 26 June, 2009, 10:33:50 pm »
"....drummed into them pretty hard from a rigid schoolmaster."

Ah, ol' skool!
Let right or wrong alone decide
God was never on your side.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #232 on: 26 June, 2009, 11:23:26 pm »
...Let's get this straight, most of what is seen as 'correct' English is simply an imposed and artificial set of rather arbitrary rules imposed by a very small, self-selecting group of C18th grammarians who were trying to 'fix' the language in place and get rid of class and regional variation. They utterly misunderstood the way languages evolve and change....
Naah - it's a lot more complicated than that. While you're right that old (though not all 18th century: it started before that) grammarians are guilty of a great deal, it's not all down to them. Fer a start, lotsa wot they thought was proper we now think wrong, both in spelling (we're far, far more rigid than they were) & in usage, where we say & write things they would have thrown up their hands in horror at, while rejecting as incorrect usages they considered correct. The language has changed, & our perceptions with it.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Flying_Monkey

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #233 on: 27 June, 2009, 10:03:56 am »
Naah - it's a lot more complicated than that. While you're right that old (though not all 18th century: it started before that) grammarians are guilty of a great deal, it's not all down to them. Fer a start, lotsa wot they thought was proper we now think wrong, both in spelling (we're far, far more rigid than they were) & in usage, where we say & write things they would have thrown up their hands in horror at, while rejecting as incorrect usages they considered correct. The language has changed, & our perceptions with it.

Of course it's more complicated than my couple of sentences - which is why I was trying to encourage people to read The Stories of English as a good readable account...

Really Ancien

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #234 on: 28 June, 2009, 03:15:05 pm »
All ideas of what constitues grammar are of course redundant. We have more unmediated and unedited written language available to us than we could have imagined 20 years ago. Probably the most varied examples are comments on Youtube, these come from all over the world, often in a variety of languages. It's interesting to try to find some common thread in the way they are written, but difficult.
Any attempts to pin down grammar are doomed, because by the time you've put it into print, it can be undermined with a thousand examples. Textspeak is one example, now mutating into tweets. I think we will look upon the period when it was difficult to print and distribute words as a golden age. Without the idea of an Editor, we remove the inhibition of working to an internal Editor. If there are no objective standards, why put up with the bother of maintaining your own standards in an age when we are all our own vanity publisher?

Damon.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #235 on: 28 June, 2009, 08:14:31 pm »
...the only concerns I have relate to miscommunication, and ... these situations can be easily remedied by further discussion...

But surely the main worry is when the two parties both believe that the communication was clear, but the message taken away was not the same? There will then be no further discussion.

Also, it's inefficient to keep asking for clarification when clear messages would have made it unnecessary.

HTFB

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #236 on: 30 June, 2009, 08:02:23 am »
Let's get this straight, most of what is seen as 'correct' English is simply an imposed and artificial set of rather arbitrary rules imposed by a very small, self-selecting group of C18th grammarians who were trying to 'fix' the language in place and get rid of class and regional variation. They utterly misunderstood the way languages evolve and change.

If they1 misunderstood how languages change, how could their prescriptions be imposed?

Conversely, as languages do evolve and change, why does it matter to you how the rules of the language which we are using now were first introduced? What is "artificial"? Whence your snobbery?

There's no evidence that this set of rules limits what you can say---quite the opposite, as the existence of a formal register gives you the choice to switch into or out of it. Capeesh?

Also, you mean "Let's get this straight. Most of ...". You wouldn't want to mix your imperative and declarative sentences, now, would you?

1. They were most of them Scots, anyway, weren't they?
Not especially helpful or mature

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #237 on: 30 June, 2009, 08:13:26 am »
Let's get this straight, most of what is seen as 'correct' English is simply an imposed and artificial set of rather arbitrary rules imposed by a very small, self-selecting group of C18th grammarians who were trying to 'fix' the language in place and get rid of class and regional variation. They utterly misunderstood the way languages evolve and change.

Let's get this straight, most of what is seen as 'correct' in football is simply an imposed and artificial set of rather arbitrary rules imposed by a very small, self-selecting group of C19th officials who  were trying to 'fix' the game in place and get rid of random and regional variation. They utterly misunderstood the way games evolve and change.

They would hardly recognise it now. Works better to have rules at any one point though... :demon:

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #238 on: 30 June, 2009, 08:29:17 am »
Let's get this straight, most of what is seen as 'correct' English is simply an imposed and artificial set of rather arbitrary rules imposed by a very small, self-selecting group of C18th grammarians who were trying to 'fix' the language in place and get rid of class and regional variation. They utterly misunderstood the way languages evolve and change.

Let's get this straight, most of what is seen as 'correct' in football is simply an imposed and artificial set of rather arbitrary rules imposed by a very small, self-selecting group of C19th officials who  were trying to 'fix' the game in place and get rid of random and regional variation. They utterly misunderstood the way games evolve and change.


Some rules are more arbitrary than others: the off-side rule and the one against split infinitives both come to mind.

Jaded

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #239 on: 30 June, 2009, 09:35:28 am »
Now I see why the split infinitive rule isn't applied rigourously in lower league matches.
It is simpler than it looks.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #240 on: 30 June, 2009, 11:03:53 am »
Let's get this straight, most of what is seen as 'correct' in football is simply an imposed and artificial set of rather arbitrary rules imposed by a very small, self-selecting group of C19th officials who  were trying to 'fix' the game in place and get rid of random and regional variation. They utterly misunderstood the way games evolve and change.

They would hardly recognise it now. Works better to have rules at any one point though... :demon:

On a similar theme, I watched some of the Twenty20 cricket the other day. I'm a lifelong cricket fan, but I didn't understand what was going on. What's all this "power play" nonsense?

I think Twenty20 is the sporting equivalent of Esperanto.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #241 on: 30 June, 2009, 11:43:45 am »
More Colemanballs than poor grammar, heard on BBC News 24 yesterday:

"Barcelona are very keen either to re-sign Eto'o or to sell him to another club".

Well, you don't say.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #242 on: 02 July, 2009, 07:08:55 am »
When did the written word start taking a much bigger part on our world? Could it have been in the 18th Century and could that be the main reason for favouring "etymology and consistent word order over commonly understood usage"?
Probably earlier - in the 16th century, as a result of the move from Catholicism to Protestantism. This placed a greater emphasis on interpreting the word (or even the Word) and less on the visual and ritual. Indeed, it rejected much of that as idolatry, so instead of draping statues of saints with offerings we were encouraged to listen to long sermons and read the Bible.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #243 on: 02 July, 2009, 08:25:03 am »
"Barcelona are very keen either to re-sign Eto'o or to sell him to another club".
At least they didn't split the infinitive ;D

Flying_Monkey

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #244 on: 02 July, 2009, 09:01:09 am »
Let's get this straight, most of what is seen as 'correct' English is simply an imposed and artificial set of rather arbitrary rules imposed by a very small, self-selecting group of C18th grammarians who were trying to 'fix' the language in place and get rid of class and regional variation. They utterly misunderstood the way languages evolve and change.

Let's get this straight, most of what is seen as 'correct' in football is simply an imposed and artificial set of rather arbitrary rules imposed by a very small, self-selecting group of C19th officials who  were trying to 'fix' the game in place and get rid of random and regional variation. They utterly misunderstood the way games evolve and change.

They would hardly recognise it now. Works better to have rules at any one point though... :demon:

Association fallacy alert!  ;)

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #245 on: 02 July, 2009, 10:55:09 pm »
Twenty20 could be accused of being poor grammar: tautology.

An example of true tautology would be a two-wheeled bicycle. Change one element of that and you get an oxymoron, such as a three-wheeled bicycle or a two-wheeled trike. By contrast a Twenty or a Twenty30 would be not so much oxymoron as one-sided match :D

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #246 on: 02 July, 2009, 10:56:00 pm »
Association fallacy alert!  ;)

I take it that that means that you don't agree?

clarion

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #247 on: 02 July, 2009, 11:08:04 pm »
Let's get this straight, most of what is seen as 'correct' English is simply an imposed and artificial set of rather arbitrary rules imposed by a very small, self-selecting group of C18th grammarians who were trying to 'fix' the language in place and get rid of class and regional variation. They utterly misunderstood the way languages evolve and change.

Let's get this straight, most of what is seen as 'correct' in football is simply an imposed and artificial set of rather arbitrary rules imposed by a very small, self-selecting group of C19th officials who  were trying to 'fix' the game in place and get rid of random and regional variation. They utterly misunderstood the way games evolve and change.

They would hardly recognise it now. Works better to have rules at any one point though... :demon:

Association fallacy alert!  ;)

Is that why Americans manhandle the language, and Aussies have their own Rules?
Getting there...

Jaded

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Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #248 on: 02 July, 2009, 11:49:47 pm »
Twenty20 is right cos it is 20 overs from one and 20 overs from the other.

50 over match is wrong cos it is actually 100 overs.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Grammar that makes you cringe
« Reply #249 on: 03 July, 2009, 07:21:01 am »
Twenty20 could be accused of being poor grammar: tautology.

And the "Rhetorical"  tautology is worse than poor grammar, as it might look as if it has useful meaning when it doesn't, eg

"It is bad to drink too much water on a ride"