Author Topic: RIP Neil Armstrong  (Read 16687 times)

Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #25 on: 25 August, 2012, 09:41:28 pm »
The 'lesser' Armstrong could learn a few lessons from his namesake in how to conduct yourself with quiet dignity.
Did he not deck a conspiracy theorist at some point, for giving it too much conspiracy theory in front of him?

IIRC it was Buzz Aldrin who chinned the tinfoil hat-wearer.

I stand (humbly) corrected.
In serious awe of the likes of Armstrong, Aldrin, test pilots, Vasco de Gama, Columbus et al.
No Hi-Viz in sight.

AndyK

Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #26 on: 25 August, 2012, 09:43:07 pm »
The 'lesser' Armstrong could learn a few lessons from his namesake in how to conduct yourself with quiet dignity.
Did he not deck a conspiracy theorist at some point, for giving it too much conspiracy theory in front of him?

IIRC it was Buzz Aldrin who chinned the tinfoil hat-wearer.

I stand (humbly) corrected.
In serious awe of the likes of Armstrong, Aldrin, test pilots, Vasco de Gama, Columbus et al.
No Hi-Viz in sight.

They did wear h*lm*ts though…  ;D ;)

Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #27 on: 25 August, 2012, 09:50:09 pm »
Why is going to the moon so expensive?  No R&D required, just build another Saturn V.  Is it just about time and materials?

There are a few Rocketdyne F-1 engines left over from the cancelled Apollo missions, but surviving engineering drawings are as rare as rocking-horse dung.

And, as mcshroom says, it's cost.

Quote
The Space Review estimated in 2010 the cost of Apollo from 1959 to 1973 as $20.4 billion, or $109 billion in 2010 dollars, averaged over the six landings as $18 billion each.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_program#Program_cost
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #28 on: 25 August, 2012, 09:52:39 pm »
That's quite a bit of Rapha.

EDIT: It's a lot of Rapha.

Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #29 on: 25 August, 2012, 09:54:31 pm »
I posted about Buzz without checking first, however, a quick check confirms I hadn't misremembered:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2272321.stm
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

jogler

  • mojo operandi
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #30 on: 25 August, 2012, 09:59:34 pm »

Why is going to the moon so expensive?  No R&D required, just build another Saturn V.  Is it just about time and materials?


Quote
The Space Review estimated in 2010 the cost of Apollo from 1959 to 1973 as $20.4 billion, or $109 billion in 2010 dollars, averaged over the six landings as $18 billion each.



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dasmoth

  • Techno-optimist
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #31 on: 25 August, 2012, 10:04:44 pm »
There are a few Rocketdyne F-1 engines left over from the cancelled Apollo missions, but surviving engineering drawings are as rare as rocking-horse dung.

Depends what you're after.  There are plenty of drawings for the F-1, for instance, and PWR are quite happy to build them if someone gives them a bit of cash to restart the production lines.  There's a serious proposal floating around (led by Dynetics) to use F-1A-based liquid boosters for SLS.

Building a complete Saturn V would be a big undertaking.  Finishing SLS is probably probably both cheaper and quicker at this point.

If you just want to walk on the moon ASAP without a huge R&D budget, you don't really need a big rocket at all.  Multiple launches and earth orbit rendezvous FTW.  A few Delta IV heavy launches would do the trick.  Or use an Atlas V for crew launch if man-rating DIV turns out to be problematic (Atlas V man rating work is already underway, and sounds like it won't be a big deal).

Edit: The Space Review has already been mentioned upthread, but for this article by Dwayne Day is a must-read if you want to know the practicalities of restarting the F1 program.
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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #32 on: 25 August, 2012, 10:53:11 pm »

If you just want to walk on the moon ASAP without a huge R&D budget, you don't really need a big rocket at all.  Multiple launches and earth orbit rendezvous FTW.  A few Delta IV heavy launches would do the trick.  Or use an Atlas V for crew launch if man-rating DIV turns out to be problematic (Atlas V man rating work is already underway, and sounds like it won't be a big deal).

Saturn V could lift 120,000kg to LEO, or 45,000kg to trans-lunar injection. Looking at what was inserted into LEO before the TLI burn started:

Apollo CSM mass = 30,332kg
Apollo LEM mass = 14, 696kg
Saturn V 3rd stage gross mass = 120,800kg (dry weight ~ 10,000kg)

LEO insertion burn after 2nd stage shut-down was 2.5 minutes, TLI burn was 6 minutes, which makes for 3rd stage gross mass in LEO  of around 88,000 kg.

So, I reckon one Delta IV Medium for a LEM, and 4 Atlas V HLVs (one man-rated) for a CSM and the TLI system.
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." ~ Freidrich Neitzsche

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #33 on: 26 August, 2012, 12:02:20 am »
Do I read that right as a hundred and ten tonnes of rocket fuel? Whee!

RIP.
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Jaded

  • The Codfather
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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #34 on: 26 August, 2012, 12:20:12 am »
Remember my Dad waking me up to watch the moonwalk, in black and white on a screen smaller than an iPad.

Also remember, many years later, finding output that the odds of returning were 1/2 and the astronauts knew that...
It is simpler than it looks.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #35 on: 26 August, 2012, 08:01:19 am »
Do I read that right as a hundred and ten tonnes of rocket fuel? Whee!

RIP.
The Saturn V's fuel consumption was calculated at five inches per (US) gallon.  I assume that was an average.

Rockets get more efficient the faster they go; the ideal is for the rocket to reach the exit speed of the exhaust gases so the gases just hang there stationary, then all the available kinetic energy is transferred to the vehicle, instead of being lost in the gases.  This never happens, of course.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #36 on: 26 August, 2012, 08:02:49 am »
Beau Bo D'Or has a nice tribute on b3ta (utterly safe for work)

http://www.b3ta.com/board/10834676
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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #37 on: 26 August, 2012, 08:24:48 am »
It seems that Collins had had psychological training to help him leave orbit alone in the event of Armstrong and Aldrin being to get back to the orbiter
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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #38 on: 26 August, 2012, 09:08:35 am »

Why is going to the moon so expensive?  No R&D required, just build another Saturn V.  Is it just about time and materials?


Quote
The Space Review estimated in 2010 the cost of Apollo from 1959 to 1973 as $20.4 billion, or $109 billion in 2010 dollars, averaged over the six landings as $18 billion each.



It's a lorra hospitals,cancer cures,warm pensioners,doctors,surgeons,nurses,universities,prisons,police officers,famine relief,irrigation projects & cycle lanes

And approximately one Olympic games per Moon shot...

Neil Armstrong. A man with the Right Stuff who totally knew where his towel was.

Damn, this is a sad day.

:'(
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redshift

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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #39 on: 26 August, 2012, 09:55:51 am »
I wasn't quite 3 when Apollo 11 landed.  I remember watching later missions, as it was almost compulsory viewing in our house.  I watched Skylab (Apollo Applications) and later the Shuttle programmes with awe.

Let's put this in some kind of perspective:

Quote from: Wikipedia
Thirty-two astronauts were assigned to fly in the Apollo manned lunar landing program. Twenty-four of these left Earth’s orbit and flew around the Moon (Apollo 1 never launched and Apollo 7 and Apollo 9 were low Earth orbit spacecraft testing missions). In addition, nine astronauts flew Apollo spacecraft in the Apollo Applications Programs Skylab and Apollo-Soyuz Test Project.

Twelve of these astronauts walked on the Moon’s surface, and six of those drove a lunar rover on the Moon. While three astronauts flew to the Moon twice, none of them landed on the Moon more than once. The nine Apollo missions to the Moon occurred between December of 1968 and December of 1972.

Apart from these twenty-four people who visited the Moon, no human being has gone beyond low Earth orbit. They have, therefore, been farther from the Earth than anyone else. They are also the only people to have directly viewed the far side of the Moon. The twelve who walked on the Moon are the only people ever to have set foot on an astronomical object other than the Earth.

So, of all the people in the world ever:

24 people have been that distance, and 12 walked on the moon.  He was the first.  At today's date, nobody under the age of 76 has been there.  We have benefited from their audacity, their capability and their engineering expertise.  Some of us have also benefited from their teaching since they returned. 

Contracts during that and other programmes, which led to advances in communications, computing, medicine, and many other aspects of engineering (from integrated circuits through to CNC machining), directly benefited the rest of us.

And people waste time dribbling on about footballers, royals, inept and semi-ept politicians, Simon-fucking-Cowell and his bands of talentless wannabees, berating people for what kind of sex they enjoy, and cyclists who may or may not have used chemical assistance to get to the top of a big hill.  Woo Hoo.

One day the human race might actually grow up, but I doubt I'll ever see it do anything like that again.

RIP Mr Armstrong.
L
:)
Windcheetah No. 176
The all-round entertainer gets quite arsey,
They won't translate his lame shit into Farsi
Somehow to let it go would be more classy…

jogler

  • mojo operandi
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #40 on: 26 August, 2012, 10:12:43 am »


One day the human race might actually grow up,



I do hope so but fear that now we have the ability to exterminate each other on a global scale there will be tantrums of the kind that prevent us from living long enough as a species to get beyond early adolescence.

I reckon your perspectives are well focused

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #41 on: 26 August, 2012, 12:34:39 pm »
I remember a schoolmate in the late 1970s telling me he wasn't worried about nuclear war because "we'll all be living in space by then".

What interests people most about technology nowadays?  When the fricking iPhone 5 is coming out.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #42 on: 26 August, 2012, 12:42:48 pm »
If the USAnians got bored of the Apollo mission after two landings, they'll be voting to stop the Mars Manned Landing project when it is halfway there.
It is simpler than it looks.

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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #43 on: 26 August, 2012, 01:09:08 pm »
NASA nowdays prefers to send machines to foreign worlds rather than people.  But is this inline with what ordinary Earthlings want in 2012?  Would YOU like to go to Mars?  Or are you content to watch it on telly via a robot and not even a man or woman on your behalf?
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dasmoth

  • Techno-optimist
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #44 on: 26 August, 2012, 01:28:13 pm »
NASA nowdays prefers to send machines to foreign worlds rather than people.

I'm not sure that's totally fair.  Different people -- and perhaps especially different centers -- have different priorities.  Funding for robotic missions is actually far lower than the human spaceflight budget, and a lot of the centers (Marshall Space Flight Center in Alabama, Johnson Space Center in Houston, Kennedy Space Center of course) are focussed on manned missions.  One issue is that the HSF programs seem to be quite focussed on rockets -- perhaps too focussed on rockets.  Designing and building SLS (Space-launch system, the congressionally-mandated huuuge rocket based on shuttle leftovers) is soaking up a lot of cash right now, and there seems to be less thought given to where to go with it once it's built, let alone where we could go without SLS.

Quote
Would YOU like to go to Mars?

Abso-fracking-lutely.

For your recomended daily dose of optimism, try this video from about 1.15 onwards:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/9blyqTwX44E&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/9blyqTwX44E&rel=1</a>
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dasmoth

  • Techno-optimist
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #45 on: 26 August, 2012, 01:36:03 pm »
Armstrong family statement

Quote
For those who may ask what they can do to honor Neil, we have a simple request. Honor his example of service, accomplishment and modesty, and the next time you walk outside on a clear night and see the moon smiling down at you, think of Neil Armstrong and give him a wink.
Half term's when the traffic becomes mysteriously less bad for a week.

Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #46 on: 26 August, 2012, 01:37:00 pm »
I remember a schoolmate in the late 1970s telling me he wasn't worried about nuclear war because "we'll all be living in space by then".

What interests people most about technology nowadays?  When the fricking iPhone 5 is coming out.

Cue...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/EMEZuaguuCU&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/EMEZuaguuCU&rel=1</a>
Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

jogler

  • mojo operandi
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #47 on: 26 August, 2012, 01:56:30 pm »
Not everyone is conversant with all these abbreviations...KSC,HSF,JSC,MSFC,SLS,

Full text,in the first instance ,would allow me to have a more complete grasp of comments.

dasmoth

  • Techno-optimist
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #48 on: 26 August, 2012, 02:02:14 pm »
Not everyone is conversant with all these abbreviations...KSC,HSF,JSC,MSFC,SLS,

Full text,in the first instance ,would allow me to have a more complete grasp of comments.

Sorry, acroynm-hell seems to become second nature if you follow this stuff for too long.  I've edited my post with some explanations and links.
Half term's when the traffic becomes mysteriously less bad for a week.

jogler

  • mojo operandi
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #49 on: 26 August, 2012, 02:08:42 pm »
Thanks for that.
HSF?