Author Topic: RIP Neil Armstrong  (Read 16675 times)

dasmoth

  • Techno-optimist
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #50 on: 26 August, 2012, 02:09:49 pm »
Half term's when the traffic becomes mysteriously less bad for a week.

Biggsy

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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #51 on: 26 August, 2012, 02:10:02 pm »
Of course the budget for robotics is less when the main point is to save money.
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jogler

  • mojo operandi
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #52 on: 26 August, 2012, 02:10:31 pm »

fuzzy

Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #53 on: 26 August, 2012, 04:37:03 pm »
If there is a God Neil, then your'e flying again.

RIP.

Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #54 on: 26 August, 2012, 05:07:21 pm »
Re the cost of $18 billion, yeah that's a huge amount* but tiny compared to the US military budget of $700 billion, and as mentioned it's the cost of one Olympics but probably has more value in propaganda and prestige.

Perhaps it's a generational thing, I'd suspect his passing doesn't really mean all that much to people under say 40-45. I mean someone has to get there first and he didn't do it on his own, and he certainly didn't contribute technologically.

*another comparison: the govt is planning to spend £3bn on doing up the Houses of Parliament
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mattc

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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #55 on: 26 August, 2012, 05:13:36 pm »
...
 and he certainly didn't contribute technologically.
He did test a hell of a lot of kit in somewhat hazardous circumstances!
Has never ridden RAAM
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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #56 on: 26 August, 2012, 06:50:34 pm »

What interests people most about technology nowadays?  When the fricking iPhone 5 is coming out.

Well yes, but on a day to day basis, I think more people use i-phones than moon rockets...

I get your point, but surely there's always been a difference between the few who pioneer technology, and those who just use it once it's perfected, without a thought for how it came about. The wheel, looms, steam locos etc. That's just progress.

I'm sad to think that pretty soon there won't be anyone left who went to the moon, and that the early promise of the first landing didn't translate into mass space travel. But then if it had, the moon would be covered in Big Mac wrappers and mining corporations, and we'd be on our way to messing up Mars too.

RIP Neil.  But at 82, he'd had a pretty good innings, especially for someone like a test pilot!

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mattc

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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #57 on: 26 August, 2012, 06:56:37 pm »
I'm sad to think that pretty soon there won't be anyone left who went to the moon, and that the early promise of the first landing didn't translate into mass space travel. But then if it had, the moon would be covered in Big Mac wrappers and mining corporations, and we'd be on our way to messing up Mars too.
That's an interesting point! We could compare with Everest: would it be better if the Mallory tragedy had ended summit attempts? Or if the massive costs of Hillary's trip had put off all future climbs [it's been done - lets build a space rocket!] ?

Instead it's covered in ripped tents, empty oxygen cylinders (is there a more pointless form of litter?!?) and excrement.
Has never ridden RAAM
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #58 on: 26 August, 2012, 07:52:27 pm »
The story I remember about Neil Armstrong, is that one of his colleagues was chatting to him about some mundane stuff in the office, and then later on found out that Neil had earlier ejected from the first Lunar Landing Research Vehicle (aka US Flying Bedstead, as distinct from the UK Flying Bedstead, which was used by Rolls Royce in the development of VTOL aircraft) prior to it crashing.  Neil hadn't mentioned it, or appeared to have been shaken by that event at all.

He was definitely made of "the right stuff" to be so unflappable after coming near to meeting his maker a lot earlier than he ultimately did.

Three out of the five LLRVs/LLTVs (Lunar Landing Training Vehicle, a newer version of the LL Research Vehicle) crashed, with the pilots having to eject.  All those pilots survived, but it wasn't exactly the safest vehicle in the world!


The Saturn V program was incredibly expensive, although modern technology ought to allow us to build things more cheaply now.  Several of the larger launch vehicles have been initially designed as manned rated vehicles (Ariane 5 for example), so would be relatively easily produced in that type of variant.

The unmanned, robotic vehicles have been favoured by most of the worlds space agencies, since they can get more "bang for the buck" with those.  The Mars Science Laboratory (Curiosity) cost a mere $2.5 billion, which is a fraction of each Apollo launch.  Designing and building manned space vehicles is a lot more expensive than unmanned vehicles because of the natural tendency to be a lot more careful with something that's loss will very likely cause fatalities.

NASA has still managed to make some spectacular cockups with their manned programmed.  If you look at the investigations into things like Apollo 1, Challenger, and Columbia, they were all predictable and largely caused because people became complacent about things that should have been noticed, but had happened before, so "clearly weren't going to be a problem". :-\

NASA is incredibly expensive, even compared to other space agencies.  I can't comment on the Russian, Indian agencies (and many of the others), but I have some knowledge of ESA and NASA, and whilst projects involving ESA are expensive, they're relatively cheap compared to NASA!  On the other hand, having seen how the Chinese construct spacecraft, I'd be somewhat averse to flying on a Chinese manned space vehicle!

Of course, compared to pretty much every space mission ever launched, most countries expenditure recently on things like warfare (or "peace keeping"), and bailing out economies massively dwarf them, with terms like billions of dollars/pounds/euros often being insufficiently large enough to easily express the numbers involved.

The UK is a leading country in the manufacture of spacecraft, and involvement in the space industry, but are expenditure on such is still tiny compared to many other money sinks.  I can't find a value for current worldwide expenditure on ringtones, but based on some of the more recent number, I'd expect that worldwide more than $1 billion dollars is spent on that alone.  The total UK Space Agency budget, is currently under £200 million, which alone wouldn't pay for a single science mission (a few hundred million is typical of the cost to build most science missions).
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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #59 on: 26 August, 2012, 08:23:32 pm »
Armstrong family statement: "Next time you walk outside on clear night and see the moon smiling down at you, think of Neil & give him a wink."
:thumbsup:
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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #60 on: 26 August, 2012, 10:44:53 pm »
I know some people argue that we shouldn't be spending money on space stuff when we have problems down here to sort (never mind all the indirect benefits via research) but I'm sure I read something a while ago re Nasa's budget.

Not only is it far less that the total US military budget but actually less than the money spent purely on fuel to run generators to run the air conditioning for the military.

Which is ridiculous.

As for would I go to Mars? Hell, I'd probably go even if it was a one way mission. Maybe not if it was a case of you have 6 months of food and once that runs out tough luck. But a mission to go there and stay, but have resupply or in situ supply. I'd be tempted.

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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #61 on: 27 August, 2012, 12:19:43 am »
.. As for would I go to Mars? Hell, I'd probably go even if it was a one way mission. Maybe not if it was a case of you have 6 months of food and once that runs out tough luck. But a mission to go there and stay, but have resupply or in situ supply. I'd be tempted.

It would extremely unlikely that anyone would be sent out without a guarantee of food, fuel and whatever was necessary, being available.

It's conceivable that automated mechanisms for generating consumables could be sent out first, and then once the telemetry indicated that things had operated OK, a manned crew could be sent, but I have my doubts that even that would be considered reliable enough.

Given the remoteness of the location, and the high risk of things going wrong (things always go wrong, it's how you plan to deal with them which distinguishes success from failure), there would almost certainly have to be multiple redundancy for everything, which would include food, water, oxygen, return systems, and even crew functions.

Whilst with most spacecraft systems you have redundancy, they would have multiple redundancy depending on the necessity (and cost) of the function.  For example, carrying multiple communications systems would be relatively easy, so I would guess they would have several complete sets all capable of communications with Earth and several more capable of operating via whatever satellites are in orbit around Mars (we would probably expect there to be a dedicated Mars comsat by then, the USA did have plans for one, but it was scrapped in budget cuts a few years back).  An entire return spacecraft would probably be impractically expensive, so you may only have just the one, although with a fair amount of local redundancy built into it.  What you may rely on for a failure with that, would be mechanisms to allow you to survive for longer on the Martian surface, whilst another vessel was prepared and sent early (this is assuming a long term continuous process of visiting Mars, which would be reasonable with any sensible project to investigate the planet).

Of course, compared to the budgets of most of the current space agencies combined (and that's really the sum of NASA and ESAs funding, all the other are small potatoes in comparison) this would be phenomenally expensive, and you would still need a massive uplift, which would be hard to convince all the governments to spend money on, unless there was a much stronger argument than we have currently.
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tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #62 on: 27 August, 2012, 10:34:32 am »
Why is going to the moon so expensive?  No R&D required, just build another Saturn V.  Is it just about time and materials?

Not that easy - they never really understood what they needed to do to make the main engines work. Getting the correct fuel flow in the ignition chamber was pretty much a process of trial and error. You couldn't just make one now and fire it up.

And do they still have all the engineering drawings for the complete system?

AndyK

Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #63 on: 27 August, 2012, 10:40:35 am »
Apparently in private Armstrong used to make really bad moon jokes, and when no-one laughed would say, "I guess you had to be there…"

nicknack

  • Hornblower
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #64 on: 27 August, 2012, 10:41:47 am »
And do they still have all the engineering drawings for the complete system?

There's probably a Haynes Manual. Wouldn't that do?
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ian

Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #65 on: 27 August, 2012, 10:58:06 am »
And do they still have all the engineering drawings for the complete system?

There's probably a Haynes Manual. Wouldn't that do?

I've got a socket wrench and some allen keys, let's go.

I think $18 billion would build about 100 metres of British train track. I'd much rather go to the moon than take a small step in Didcot. Less likely to step in dog poo, for a start.

They inconveniently landed on the moon before anyone got around to conceiving me, I was more of a Shuttle kid, but the fact that we could fly to the moon was always inspirational. Sure, we could have spent the money on other useful stuff, like blowing one another up or building a better mobile phone so people of the next generation could get in my way. The fact that we could do something so breathtaking, and that there were people who didn't soil their spacesuits at the thought of clambering on top of a giant moon pointed bomb, wasn't just inspiring, it was inspiring with a lot of awe buttered on top.

Godspeed, Neil.


rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #66 on: 27 August, 2012, 11:18:26 am »
There's a Haynes manual for the Millennium Falcon, so there ought to be one for the Saturn V.

https://www.haynes.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=47367

Oh yes.
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hellymedic

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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #67 on: 27 August, 2012, 12:57:02 pm »

They inconveniently landed on the moon before anyone got around to conceiving me, I was more of a Shuttle kid, but the fact that we could fly to the moon was always inspirational. Sure, we could have spent the money on other useful stuff, like blowing one another up or building a better mobile phone so people of the next generation could get in my way. The fact that we could do something so breathtaking, and that there were people who didn't soil their spacesuits at the thought of clambering on top of a giant moon pointed bomb, wasn't just inspiring, it was inspiring with a lot of awe buttered on top.

Godspeed, Neil.

I am privileged to have been eleven years old when Neil Armstrong took his 'small step'. Old enough to understand and wonder but not quite old enough to question the politics and budgets; it was wonderful!

Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #68 on: 27 August, 2012, 01:00:09 pm »
People have seriously considered using the bits of Saturn V scattered around, but generally it's considered that the cost of refurbishing it all, and knowing exactly what processes and components went into construction, make it impractical, and more expensive than simply building a new launch vehicle.  Since many of the parts haven't really got detailed information on what's happened to them, that doesn't really help.  Indeed, the engines in the Smithsonian wouldn't necessarily be ideal, because they've got 11/4 engines on display, with two large mirrors to make it look like all five engine.  The engine which is the central 1/4 engine, wouldn't be a lot of use. ;D

Even if you just tried to copy the Saturn V, the chances are that by modern standards, a lot of the processes wouldn't be documented well enough, or would be considered unacceptable by modern spacecraft engineering standards (ignoring all the stuff that would no longer be acceptable because of the materials used).

Building a new super heavy launch vehicle variant would make more sense.  The Atlas V Phase 2 Heavy Lift Launch Vehicle is a suggested design which would be able to get over 70 tonnes into Low Earth Orbit, which is nearly enough to get an Apollo era mission into orbit, and certainly enough to get a modern equivalent there, in one go (rather than some of the current plans using multiple launches).
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rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #69 on: 27 August, 2012, 03:09:56 pm »
Most of the weight is fuel, isn't it?  What sort of extra energy are we loking at to get from the ISS to the Moon?  A bit of Googling suggests the ISS is travelling at about 3/4 of Earth's escape velocity already, and there's none of that troublesome aerodynamic drag to worry about.  You could possibly get the ISS crew to bolt together a Moon shuttle sent up there in bits, and send them a few fuel tanks too.  I suppose you could just send water up and use solar panels to break it into hydrogen and oxygen, although whether the solar panels could produce enough power to liquefy the gases is another question.
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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #70 on: 27 August, 2012, 03:25:24 pm »
Weight is everything in space, you wouldn't send water up and split it, it's not worth the effort, you may as well send Hydrogen and Oxygen up in the first space, and that way you don't have to send a (fallible) system up to split it.  Energy is relatively cheap in orbit, but not that cheap.

(There could be some value in sending a robotic plant to Mars ahead of a manned mission to "farm" fuel from perma-frost, near the poles, but that's a non-ideal location to land.  Whilst that may also work nearer the equator, it'll take a while, so will have to land a few years before the return mission, and be remotely monitored, operated, and repaired.  It would still likely need quite a bit of autonomy, to drive around and not hit rocks, or end up stuck and unable to move).

Sending it up, and getting the ISS crew to bolt it together doesn't really save you anything, it'll take the same amount of energy (and fuel) to get it all up there, regardless of whether it's in one big bit, several large bits, or an awful lot of smaller bits.

Assembly in orbit is extremely non-trivial.  Spacesuits aren't really designed for doing fine assembly work in, so you have to build in a lot of systems to automatically link things up as much as possible, which will increase weight, and complexity, and introduce a much higher risk of failure.

Imagine trying to assemble a very very complex B&Q Wardrobe whilst wearing a dozen pairs of gloves over your hands, and clothing less flexible than a couple of sets of arctic survival clothing.  No gravity to hold stuff when you put it down, and having to stop yourself spinning when using a screwdriver are thrown in for added amusement.  Even practising this on the Earth (using weighted suits in a very large pool) is only partially accurate, takes a very long time, and still costs a shit load of money, although it does have the benefit that you can pop outside for a fag, and don't have to drink a cup of tea afterwards using a straw.

The ISS took a long time to build, and doesn't have to worry about having any of the sort of forces exerted on it that a lander would have to deal with.  The ISS was mostly shipped up in the Shuttle, as several very large, mostly assembled bits, but the Shuttle is no longer available, so currently it would have to go up on much smaller capacity launchers.

Anyone seriously considering a Mars mission would need a much larger launch vehicle, and realistically, even then it's going to take several launches, and some in orbit assembly.
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rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #71 on: 27 August, 2012, 03:37:06 pm »
I was thinking that the Moon vehicle could be launched using existing small rockets (only one of which would need to carry people), and not something the size of a Saturn V.
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Wowbagger

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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #72 on: 27 August, 2012, 03:38:29 pm »
I remember the moon landings very well, having been in my O level year at the time. The one I remember best of all was 13. That rescue mission really was something. "Houston, we have a problem" must be the masterly understatement of all time.
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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #73 on: 27 August, 2012, 03:40:33 pm »
Well, the current plan to get to the Moon, is to use several launches but getting further (eg Mars) would need something a bit bigger, simply because of the size of the vehicle and the amount of material that you're going to need (mainly equipment and non-trivial consumables, like food).
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David Martin

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Re: RIP Neil Armstrong
« Reply #74 on: 27 August, 2012, 05:45:21 pm »
Ahh, the moon landings. I allegedly watched this on TV in a maternity home as I was a mere 5 days old at the time.
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