Author Topic: European Super League (Read 13403 times)

citoyen · « **Reply #100 on:** 21 April, 2021, 09:16:21 am »

John Barnes telling it like it is:
https://twitter.com/BBCBreakfast/status/1384772410868645889?s=20

mcshroom · « **Reply #101 on:** 21 April, 2021, 09:28:59 am »

It could be that the ESL clubs got basically what they wanted. hidden in this mess was UEFA's announcement of the new Champions League format - link

I like some bits of it. The Swiss pairing system is in many ways a much better system than all-play-all groups IMHO. Wow will know the system well as this is how most chess tournaments are run. After the first round, all the teams that won will play other teams that won, all the teams that lost will play other losers. As the rounds go on, you play teams with the same number of points as yourselves each time, so by the later rounds, the teams with the most points will all be playing each other, so the games get bigger as you reach the end of the group stage.

What I don't like is the coefficient bit at the end. Basically that seems to be a sop to the biggest clubs in Europe. Do well in previous seasons of the competition, and you can qualify even if you have a bad year domestically. AS I've heard it described, you could get to the situation where a big team like a Man City or Liverpool could qualify for the CL, when finishing the Premiership below smaller teams with less previous success. I can't see how that would feel fair for a Leicester/Leeds/Everton who would miss out.

citoyen · « **Reply #102 on:** 21 April, 2021, 09:35:12 am »

Jurgen Klopp spoke about the CL changes after the Leeds game on Monday. He's not in favour, not least because it means more games for teams to fit into an already congested season. Plus there's Fifa's plans to expand the Club World Cup.

If people are worried about how the ESL proposal would have damaged the domestic game, they should take a closer look at what Uefa and Fifa are up to. Teams playing in Europe will almost certainly have to withdraw from the domestic cup competitions. I think it's quite likely the size of the Premier League will have to be reduced as well.

None of this is in the interest of fans. It's all about the greed of those in power, nothing else.

Part of the reason for the timing of the ESL announcement was because they knew the Uefa announcement was coming. I expect they felt fans would respond more positively to their plans in contrast to the shitshow Uefa are proposing. Unfortunately for them, it had precisely the opposite effect, simply distracting attention from the CL proposals.

mcshroom · « **Reply #103 on:** 21 April, 2021, 09:57:06 am »

I don't understand why they need more games. The swiss system works for any number of rounds, so it could be used for the same number of games as the current CL. The paring system is designed to allow big fields so they can expand the number of teams playing, without having to up the number of games any one team plays. I've played in and chess tournaments with well over 100 entrants using this system.

Cudzoziemiec · « **Reply #104 on:** 21 April, 2021, 09:57:50 am »

The club coefficient feels like an extension of what happened in 2005(?) when Liverpool(?) won the CL then failed to qualify the next year, so were given a pass for being "reigning champions". Which TBF is what happens in many competitions.

DuncanM · « **Reply #105 on:** 21 April, 2021, 10:02:52 am »

Quote from: mcshroom on 21 April, 2021, 09:28:59 am

What I don't like is the coefficient bit at the end. Basically that seems to be a sop to the biggest clubs in Europe. Do well in previous seasons of the competition, and you can qualify even if you have a bad year domestically. AS I've heard it described, you could get to the situation where a big team like a Man City or Liverpool could qualify for the CL, when finishing the Premiership below smaller teams with less previous success. I can't see how that would feel fair for a Leicester/Leeds/Everton who would miss out.

Kinda, but the smaller clubs doesn't miss out as such. If they finish in the top 4, they get into the CL. The only way that it would be odd is if they come 5th, and a club with a big coefficient come 6th. Then, if the big coefficient club is in the top 2 of clubs ranked by coefficient who have missed out on the CL, they would get an extra space in the CL. It's odd, but it doesn't take anything away from the club in 5th.

The Champions exemption is interesting, in that it means that if the champion is from your league, your league gets an extra place, so the club in 5th in the PL could get a CL place if one of the top 4 wins the CL.

citoyen · « **Reply #106 on:** 21 April, 2021, 10:03:26 am »

Quote from: mcshroom on 21 April, 2021, 09:57:06 am

I don't understand why they need more games.

Then you're not paying attention. This has been answered many times over - the people who run football are motivated by one thing, and one thing only.

Watch the John Barnes clip I linked earlier.

citoyen · « **Reply #107 on:** 21 April, 2021, 10:07:27 am »

Quote from: DuncanM on 21 April, 2021, 10:02:52 am

Kinda, but the smaller clubs doesn't miss out as such. If they finish in the top 4, they get into the CL.

This notion of "smaller clubs" needs to be put into context. That's "smaller" within the elite leagues. Even the biggest clubs within the smaller leagues don't get a look in.

I'd be very happy if we went back to only the actual league champions qualifying (plus maybe the previous year's winners). Leeds players were wearing T-shirts the other night proclaiming that clubs should earn the right to play in the "champions" league. I wonder if they'd have felt the same if they were competing for fourth place.

DuncanM · « **Reply #108 on:** 21 April, 2021, 10:35:20 am »

Quote from: citoyen on 21 April, 2021, 10:07:27 am

Quote from: DuncanM on 21 April, 2021, 10:02:52 am
Kinda, but the smaller clubs doesn't miss out as such. If they finish in the top 4, they get into the CL.

This notion of "smaller clubs" needs to be put into context. That's "smaller" within the elite leagues. Even the biggest clubs within the smaller leagues don't get a look in.

I'd be very happy if we went back to only the actual league champions qualifying (plus maybe the previous year's winners). Leeds players were wearing T-shirts the other night proclaiming that clubs should earn the right to play in the "champions" league. I wonder if they'd have felt the same if they were competing for fourth place.

I agree entirely about the notion of Everton or Leicester being a "small" club. My response was worded that way because of the question, but it's a common way of thinking now - there's the richest 6 who were leaving and then a bunch of smaller clubs. It's down to the giant riches that the Champions League has brought to the ones that frequently finish in the top 4. However, the idea that you can go back to only the winners playing in the CL would only work if the CL had no money associated with it. In a world where the CL gives you up to £100m a season, that entrenches inequality just as much as having the top 4 setup we have now (see countless smaller European leagues where the same team wins year after year after year). 7 clubs have won the PL since 1992, and 3 of those have only won it once. There are probably only 3 or 4 teams that can realistically hope to win it each year. Also, without a "race for top 4" this year, the league would be utterly done. Relegation is sorted, the title is sorted, it's only the CL spots that are being competed over. The Europa League (and Conference!) are more trouble than they are worth.

citoyen · « **Reply #109 on:** 21 April, 2021, 10:52:39 am »

Quote from: DuncanM on 21 April, 2021, 10:35:20 am

However, the idea that you can go back to only the winners playing in the CL would only work if the CL had no money associated with it. In a world where the CL gives you up to £100m a season, that entrenches inequality just as much as having the top 4 setup we have now (see countless smaller European leagues where the same team wins year after year after year). 7 clubs have won the PL since 1992, and 3 of those have only won it once. There are probably only 3 or 4 teams that can realistically hope to win it each year. Also, without a "race for top 4" this year, the league would be utterly done. Relegation is sorted, the title is sorted, it's only the CL spots that are being competed over. The Europa League (and Conference!) are more trouble than they are worth.

Totally agree with you on all points. I'm fantasising - I know that horse has long since bolted, unfortunately.

DuncanM · « **Reply #110 on:** 21 April, 2021, 11:12:39 am »

It's strange, because it comes down to the way the sport is governed and run, and who has the power. There are various models across different sports, and I don't know if you could say that any of them are particularly good:

Football:
FIFA control the global game and the World Cup, but don't have very much cash.
UEFA control the european game, and the Champions League, so have oodles of cash.
National Leagues tend to be controlled by the clubs - some leagues have money, but not much power.
Clubs - loads of money, frustrated by lack of power and variability of income streams.

Corruption - everywhere.

Cycling is worse, because it's run by the UCI, the power/money lies with ASO, and the teams are kinda fungible depending on raising funding from year to year. There's not all that much money about, in part because of all the fighting?
NFL is the opposite, in that the franchises own the league, and the whole thing runs as a sort of cartel, but without the ruling bodies getting in the way like football. Tons of money.
Rugby union varies massively from country to country, but there isn't all that much cash around, and I don't know if the club game breaks even anywhere.

citoyen · « **Reply #111 on:** 21 April, 2021, 11:23:08 am »

I was watching I, Tonya the other night. Ice skating seems to be just as corrupt as any other sport.

Cudzoziemiec · « **Reply #112 on:** 21 April, 2021, 11:37:23 am »

Quote from: citoyen on 21 April, 2021, 11:23:08 am

I was watching I, Tonya the other night. Ice skating seems to be just as corrupt as any other sport.

Next you'll be telling us it's fake ice!

TimC · « **Reply #113 on:** 21 April, 2021, 12:02:53 pm »

Sport as business. The argument was over who runs the money-making elite of European football, as I understand it, and the American would-be invaders have been seen off. For now. The fans may be celebrating, but I don't see any moves to make Association Football any more approachable, affordable or available, so I'm not sure what they think they've won.

The Americans, following the model of their professional sports leagues, were looking to guarantee a predictable, steady, reliable (and, of course, huge) income stream with few risks. I don't believe for a minute that the European authorities haven't understood the benefits of the plan; the 'club' owners just need to find a way to cut those authorities into the deal. I'm sure they'll find that way sooner or later.

citoyen · « **Reply #114 on:** 21 April, 2021, 12:10:54 pm »

Quote from: TimC on 21 April, 2021, 12:02:53 pm

The fans may be celebrating, but I don't see any moves to make Association Football any more approachable, affordable or available, so I'm not sure what they think they've won.

Quite. The hollowest of victories.

pcolbeck · « **Reply #115 on:** 21 April, 2021, 01:10:47 pm »

The main problem with ESL idea was it removed jeopardy from the equation. If the teams are guaranteed a place in the league no matter what it takes all the tension out of the game.
The atmosphere of football is created by the fact that a team that doesn't get enough points is demoted and if they do really well they get promoted or get to play in Europe (whatever they call the competition at the time).

It's those matches where the teams at the bottom of a league are fighting to stay up or manage to beat the big teams that creates all the atmosphere and reasons to watch. West Broms 5-2 demolition of Chelsea early in the month was a thing of beauty to watch.

Demotion and promotion have real consequences in terms of the money available to teams as well. A league with a guaranteed places is just a series of demonstration matches with a pat on the back for the winners.

No the current setup isn't perfect and could be tweaked to make it better but the ESL idea just binned the basic premise of league football and was a horrible idea.

DuncanM · « **Reply #116 on:** 21 April, 2021, 01:11:39 pm »

Don't think that isn't lost on some of the noisiest people in this. Check out this statement from the people who put the flags on the Kop - is there anyone they don't go in on?
https://twitter.com/SpionKop1906/status/1384766329220120580/photo/1

Wowbagger · « **Reply #117 on:** 22 April, 2021, 07:26:08 am »

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/22/esl-european-super-league-global-capitalism-football-tech-giants?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

A very neat piece by Larry Elliott how the ESL proposal is a metaphor for global capitalism.

Jaded · « **Reply #118 on:** 23 April, 2021, 07:20:00 am »

One thing the pandemic has shown is that, properly arranged, the lack of "Legacy Fans" at real matches is not an issue for TV watchers, as noise can be added for effect, seats covered up with wraps and there's no unpredictable sweaty chanting, or semi-naked fat bellies on display.

I would imagine that the next step for the Billionaires and their money is to get rid of the unpredictability that comes from having players and managers. Maybe by replacing them with one or two video games players...

Cudzoziemiec · « **Reply #119 on:** 23 April, 2021, 07:59:31 am »

I think that's already happened, in as far as watching other people play video games is now considered a sport in itself (which is presumably what you had in mind as well). The E-Sports Super League, yeah!

Jaded · « **Reply #120 on:** 23 April, 2021, 08:14:29 am »

Yes, that formed part of the basis of my premise.

Cudzoziemiec · « **Reply #121 on:** 23 April, 2021, 09:53:03 am »

Here's someone who thinks it's all over. And that it's therefore all going to change. https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/super-league-premier-league-uefa-b1835595.html

Wowbagger · « **Reply #122 on:** 02 May, 2021, 10:59:31 pm »

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/may/02/manchester-united-fans-invade-old-trafford-pitch-during-glazer-out-protests

This latest development is a very interesting one - fans stopping their team playing in protest at the behaviour of the owners.

Relating to the number of fans who broke into the ground - the article says "around 100", but the first picture there of the fans on the pitch gives me the impression that there are rather more than 100 there.

De Sisti · « **Reply #123 on:** 03 May, 2021, 09:31:38 am »

Quote from: Wowbagger on 02 May, 2021, 10:59:31 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/may/02/manchester-united-fans-invade-old-trafford-pitch-during-glazer-out-protests

This latest development is a very interesting one - fans stopping their team playing in protest at the behaviour of the owners.

Relating to the number of fans who broke into the ground - the article says "around 100", but the first picture there of the fans on the pitch gives me the impression that there are rather more than 100 there.

For a stadium that wasn't allowed to be open for fans to watch a football match, one has to wonder
how they were allowed to gain entrance and get onto the pitch. Where were the police (to beat up
and arrest the crowd) when you need them.

The cops seem to think it's ok to duff up defenseless women on a protest though. Just sayin'.

DuncanM · « **Reply #124 on:** 03 May, 2021, 09:41:04 am »

Quote from: De Sisti on 03 May, 2021, 09:31:38 am

Quote from: Wowbagger on 02 May, 2021, 10:59:31 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/may/02/manchester-united-fans-invade-old-trafford-pitch-during-glazer-out-protests

This latest development is a very interesting one - fans stopping their team playing in protest at the behaviour of the owners.

Relating to the number of fans who broke into the ground - the article says "around 100", but the first picture there of the fans on the pitch gives me the impression that there are rather more than 100 there.
For a stadium that wasn't allowed to be open for fans to watch a football match, one has to wonder
how they were allowed to gain entrance and get onto the pitch. Where were the police (to beat up
and arrest the crowd) when you need them.

The cops seem to think it's ok to duff up defenseless women on a protest though. Just sayin'.

The police aren't there to protect a stadium. There were a large number of stewards, but the crowd broke in through a set of barriers thanks to force of numbers.

In terms of the actual protest - it was much more of an anti-Glazer protest than an anti-super league one. The Glazers might be the worst owners in the premier league, it's only the giant Utd commercial income that has kept their heads above water paying the interest that they landed on the club. They still have >500m of debt, having paid over £1bn in financing costs since the Glazers arrived. They also take millions in dividends and payments out of the club every year.