Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Velo Fixe => Topic started by: rogerzilla on 02 August, 2009, 04:07:12 pm
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Derek at Old Bike Trader has e-mailed me thus:
Hello all
I have just had news that the S3X hubs are at sea on the way to Europe and should be available late August, on confirmation of arrival in the UK I will notify cost and delivery details.
So I can confirm my order quantity with my supplier please let me know if you require more than one unit or have friends or colleagues who wish to purchase the hub also.
Regards Derek.
Derek is at oldbiketrader@aol.com
There are pictures of the hub in the new SA catalogue:
http://www.sturmey-archer.com/pdfs/Sturmey-Archer_2009-2010_Catalogue.pdf
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A bit OT, but it was interesting looking in their catalogue. They do the X-RK8, which looks like it could be useful for a disc-braked commuter. I wonder how it compares with the Alfine, it certainly seems to be a bit cheaper.
I quite fancy a disc braked, hub geared commuter, but I think the S3X fixed approach may be a bit too much for me. Yes, I know, I'm chicken! ;D
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The Sturmey 8-speed is nowhere near as good as the Alfine, or even the Nexus 8. Chris Juden of the CTC tested it and didn't like it; the big problem is that direct drive is 1st gear and everything is geared up from that. This means you end up running a ring and sprocket combination like 28 x 20 for climbing, and suffer inefficiency in all the most frequently-used gears.
Back on topic, the gear ratios of the S3X are 62.5/75/100 i.e. direct drive is top. This isn't ideal either (you want your cruising gear to be direct drive) but apparently it's not possible to make a fixed 3-speed that works otherwise. The old ASC was the same basic setup, although with closer ratios. On the other hand, the power losses in a mere 3-speed hub - assuming only one planetary geartrain in use at a time - are minimal and on a par with a really good clean derailleur system.
I was thinking of running 48 x 15, which would give gears of about 53"/63"/85" with 23c tyres. I'd normally ride 48 x 18 fixed (about 70"), but that's just to get me down the hills without blowing the front tyre off the rim with brake heat. 63" would be much nicer on the flat. The hub could be left on the bike all the time; 85" is great for TTs and it would be as efficient as a normal fixed gear.
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I guess for most folk the price (incl for the shifter) will be something of a deciding factor!
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I think it is very interesting as a unit, but price is definitely an issue...
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Genuine question: why is it important for ones "cruising gear" (by which I assume you mean that most often used) to be "direct drive"?
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Greatest efficiency.
In either of the other two gears, you are turning more gears, so there are greater losses. It's a damn shame it's so difficult to have a fixed that is direct in the middle, then an overdrive for downhills, and a lower gear for hills or eadwinds. :(
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"there are greater losses"
Thought that would be the answer - but are the losses sufficient to be a real issue for a potterer like me?
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Interested, how much?
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"there are greater losses"
Thought that would be the answer - but are the losses sufficient to be a real issue for a potterer like me?
Given the figures for hub gear losses, which seem to be just higher than average for a derailleur system (though higher than a well-maintained one), I would suspect that the efficiency of an indirect drive on this unit is comparable to a derailleur equipped bike </pure speculation>
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Plenty of people put up with the inefficiency of freewheel hub gears for pottering.
Interested, how much?
I saw on a SA blog nearer $200 than $400, the writer was being very cagey about a price, this was in the winter.
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Yup. Cagey they have been. I'd want to know much more precisely before I commited.
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Supposed to be $160-$190, so reckon on the same in pounds, since we always get shafted.
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Whilst the "effeciency loss" sounds well within my standards, I strongly suspect the price will not!
I'll hazard a guestimate - hub plus bits and bobs and shifter - min 250 quids, max 350.
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I wouldn't have thought so. A new S-RF3 is only about £70, and you can get one built into a Merc wheel for £40 (then throw away the rim and spokes). Obviously there will be a fashionista premium, but I don't think they can charge Rohloff prices for an SA product made in Taiwan.
The bits and bobs, if you're going to do it properly, are a fulcrum clip for your top tube and a pulley for your seat cluster (attached to the seat tube). Never run the cable via the BB - it either needs loads of outer or it will get chewed by the chain when you fix a puncture.
True obsessives can have these things done as braze-ons :-[
EDIT: anecdotal evidence here says €150, which is about £130.
velospace forums - the s3x should be launched in the u.s. by now (http://velospace.org/forums/discussion/888/the-s3x-should-be-launched-in-the-us-by-now/)
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On another OT note, I see that SA are introducing bar end changers for their freewheel hubs.
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On another thread, I speculated about my wish to have interchangeable S3X and hub geared rear wheels, but Simon Galgut wisely pointed out chainline problems. The figures are these:
OLN CL
S3X 120/130 42, 43, 44, 45
iMotion 9 135 48.8
Rohloff 135 52
Is there a way I can span these gaps & make a viable swap? I guess the stays can be built as 132mm & sprung to fit, but is the chainline problem a showstopper? It's less than 4mm difference, but I don't want to risk a chain coming off. Is there a busk? Or could I change the chainline enough at the cranks when I change the wheel?
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I'm probably missing something obvious, but if set it at 47 at the front then both the S3x and the iMotion would be only 2mm out which is fine. And use a 132 rear end (Cotic?).
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OK, thanks. I wasn't sure if the difference in OLN might cause as many problems as the chainline deviation, but I suppose you're right. 2mm deviation acceptable? I suppose so. I'm not sure what degree of accuracy I could measure.
I just need to experiment to see what chainset could do me 47mm.
Thank you. :)
PS: Not OT for this thread, as it affects whether I want one or not :)
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Or set the outer shoulders of the cranks to give 45 for the s3x and use spacers under the chainwheel for the im9. It's not going to be a 5 minute job to change over anyway, unless you leave both sets of controls and cables in place all the time.
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Sounds doable, though...
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Just respace the S3X a bit before building the wheel. If it's like other modern SA hubs there will be a spacer between the RH locktab washer and locknut, or the locknut itself will be very thick. Remove spacing from here (or fit an old-style SA locknut which is very thin), move it to under the LH locknut and you have increased the maximum chainline. Some 1mm thick washers are handy for such fine tuning.
Don't worry about the wheel dish - few SA wheels are truly dishless.
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Two chainrings with the same tooth count?
The inner and outer would be about 5-8mm apart wouldn't they?
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2mm is neither here nor there - why manufacture complicated answers to a problem that doesn't exist!
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Depends what sort of chain you use. A full-bushing one can crackle like mad with a 2mm difference.
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I'm clearly not that sensitive! Just use a cheap chain - lot easier to bin 'em every month and replace!
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Are they any closer yet?
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As of the 17th August, no. Not shipped yet - Derek must have been misinformed.
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Email from Derek
I have now had confirmation that the hubs will be available by 1st November, it would have been now but SA Holland forgot to ship the sprockets with the hubs.
1. The first shipment hub shells are in machined alloy matt finish, with a SA logo
2. The O.L.D choice is 120 or 130mm
3. Sprocket are a new design with 8 large and 1 small location spline, in 1/8" X 1/2"
pitch, in 3 sizes 13, 15, 16, teeth
4. Gear changer supplied with hub set is the bar end type, but I have ordered the handle
bar lever type if you prefer.
5. Gear ratio is 3rd gear direct, 2nd gear minus 75%, 1st gear minus 62%.
6. SA will be offering a matching chain wheel sets in 42, 44, 46, & 48 teeth, but when
these were made to suit the 8 speed only 2 types were ever offered for sale,
so this is a wait & see item
7. Finally the most important bit the price, I envisage the hub set will retails @ £175 this
may be cheaper, it depends on the quantity discount I can sweat from my supplier.
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Email from Derek
I have now had confirmation that the hubs will be available by 1st November, it would have been now but SA Holland forgot to ship the sprockets with the hubs.
1. The first shipment hub shells are in machined alloy matt finish, with a SA logo
2. The O.L.D choice is 120 or 130mm
3. Sprocket are a new design with 8 large and 1 small location spline, in 1/8" X 1/2"
pitch, in 3 sizes 13, 15, 16, teeth
4. Gear changer supplied with hub set is the bar end type, but I have ordered the handle
bar lever type if you prefer.
5. Gear ratio is 3rd gear direct, 2nd gear minus 75%, 1st gear minus 62%.
6. SA will be offering a matching chain wheel sets in 42, 44, 46, & 48 teeth, but when
these were made to suit the 8 speed only 2 types were ever offered for sale,
so this is a wait & see item
7. Finally the most important bit the price, I envisage the hub set will retails @ £175 this
may be cheaper, it depends on the quantity discount I can sweat from my supplier.
1 Fine
2 Fine
3 Not Fine. I want 47x17 513x17
4 OK, although ideally I would prefer downtube
5 OK
6 What is it with these non-prime numbers?
7 That is a little bit at the ouch end of the price range.
Time for a bit of a think
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It's all fine by me except that the price is about £25 more than I thought it would be. 48 x 15 on 700c would allow me to use the bike for racing and everything else, although ideally I'd have liked the choice of a 14T as well. They are Shimano-pattern splines.
EDIT: I wouldn't bother with the SA crankset unless the chainline really is going to be a problem. I have a TA crankset on the shortest possible TA BB, which gives a chainline of about 46.5mm, so I will need to respace the hub before building a wheel, to increase the rear chainline by 1.5mm. Alternatively I may be able to get the chainline within 1mm by tightening the RH crankbolt down harder (you'd be surprised), so I'll try that first.
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... but I don't think they can charge Rohloff prices for an SA product made in Taiwan.
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£175 for 3 speeds is about £58 per speed.
Rohloff £840 (nutted axle, SJS) for 14 speeds is about £60 per speed.
Yes, I do have time to waste.
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Well I'm conferting a 4 speed to a 3 speed fixed will tell you how it goes.
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... but I don't think they can charge Rohloff prices for an SA product made in Taiwan.
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£175 for 3 speeds is about £58 per speed.
Rohloff £840 (nutted axle, SJS) for 14 speeds is about £60 per speed.
Yes, I do have time to waste.
On that basis, the Alfine is £25 a speed, bargain.
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... but I don't think they can charge Rohloff prices for an SA product made in Taiwan.
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£175 for 3 speeds is about £58 per speed.
Rohloff £840 (nutted axle, SJS) for 14 speeds is about £60 per speed.
Yes, I do have time to waste.
On that basis, the Alfine is £25 a speed, bargain.
EAI 1/8" Sprocket. £19.50 from Hubjub.
Ambrosio 1/8" Sprocket. Under £10 from Parker International (http://www.parker-international.co.uk/3334/Ambrosio-Fixed-Track-Sprocket.html)
:)
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Some words/pics over on On One site. I rather think I'd wait until they have finished the claimed intensive testing process!
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... but I don't think they can charge Rohloff prices for an SA product made in Taiwan.
...
£175 for 3 speeds is about £58 per speed.
Rohloff £840 (nutted axle, SJS) for 14 speeds is about £60 per speed.
Yes, I do have time to waste.
On that basis, the Alfine is £25 a speed, bargain.
EAI 1/8" Sprocket. £19.50 from Hubjub.
Ambrosio 1/8" Sprocket. Under £10 from Parker International (http://www.parker-international.co.uk/3334/Ambrosio-Fixed-Track-Sprocket.html)
:)
But you have to buy a hub to put the sprockets on.
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Some words/pics over on On One site. I rather think I'd wait until they have finished the claimed intensive testing process!
But why are they pairing it with a Pompino when it is crying out to go in a Lincolnshire Poacher?
I have bitten the bullet and written my first cheque in years.
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Well, I've turned up a pulley and brazed it onto a suitable frame (1976 Harry Hall 531 P.G.). If I decide against the S£X I'll go for a freewheel S.A.
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Some words/pics over on On One site. I rather think I'd wait until they have finished the claimed intensive testing process!
But why are they pairing it with a Pompino when it is crying out to go in a Lincolnshire Poacher?
I have bitten the bullet and written my first cheque in years.
Don't forget to get a pulley and fulcrum clip (for your tube sizes) when placing the final order. Running it in outer all the way to the chainstay is less than satisfactory; you normally have a short piece of outer to the front of the top tube, where the fulcrum goes, and then the rest is bare cable. The pulley generally goes on the seat tube and the cable is never parallel to the top tube...you get used to the looks.
I wonder how much lash there is in it? In the ASC I think direct drive (100%) was lash free, but the others had a fair bit.
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My Carlton Clubman frame has a cable guide at the bottom bracket, I hope to be able to use that one way or another. My preference would be for a downtube changer with naked cable all the way.
As for being "on the lash", it's a toss up between me and the bike.
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The trouble with BB routing (especially with bare cable) is that the cable tends to get caught between chain and chainring when you're fixing a p*nct*r*. Once kinked, it will never shift properly.
This problem doesn't arise with a derailleur because the rear mech stays in place when the wheel comes off - on a SA hub the cable is free to flop about.
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Does anyone actually have their grubby mits on one of these yet or are we still in the vapour-ware stages?
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On-One Bicycles » STURMEY S3X - Its HOT HOT HOT - Approved and on the way. (http://www.on-one-shop.co.uk/?p=3299)
Comment 1:-
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So, how does it ride!?
How’s the gear change?
Can you change under load, not load, does it clunk and click and chunk?
Is it scary?
Does it explode under braking?
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Comment 6:-
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our extensive round the park testing revealed clunky shifting of the clunkiest clunks with a clunk feel , suitable for a connoiseseur of clunk
lets just say its not xtr or dura ace , but its by far much more fun , should be loved for what it is
but its just fun , clunk click every trip as the green cross code man used to say
theres a 130 version that should work fine on inbred for the ultimate canal path clunky fixed gear commuter
"
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'Clunky' or 'Positive'? You decide. I don't expect (or want) silky Super Record shifts on the go.
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Sturmey shifts are agricultural, especially with the traditional trigger. However, the trigger is the best, especially with an old AW where there is a "neutral" which you really don't want to find by accident. The trigger can't get stuck between gears, whereas thumbshifters can.
Unfortunately the review doesn't mention the lash. If you get too much, it's like having a slack chain, although not dangerous.
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Yes. With a fixed gear I do NOT want a neutral. :o
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I see on-one are hinting that they will be offering a pompino built up with this, um item*
On-One Bicycles » STURMEY S3X - Its HOT HOT HOT - Approved and on the way. (http://www.on-one-shop.co.uk/?p=3299)
*I was about to say "piece of crap" but I've never used one myself, or heard any first hand reports so let's wait and see
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Mine is in the post. Before building it into a wheel I shall take it apart (riding one tightens the ball ring down hard; a new one usually comes apart easily even if not built onto a rim). Partly to see how well greased it is, partly because I want to see how it works. It's supposed to be a hack of the 5-speed, so presumably has two declutchable suns. Hopefully the Achilles heel of the latest 3-speed - the rattly pawl masking shroud - is unnecessary and omitted.
If I don't like the way it rides, the wheel will be offered for sale on here; 120mm OLD, so more suited to a track bike or vintage frame than a modern road frame.
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Mine is in the post. Before building it into a wheel I shall take it apart (riding one tightens the ball ring down hard; a new one usually comes apart easily even if not built onto a rim). Partly to see how well greased it is, partly because I want to see how it works. It's supposed to be a hack of the 5-speed, so presumably has two declutchable suns. Hopefully the Achilles heel of the latest 3-speed - the rattly pawl masking shroud - is unnecessary and omitted.
If I don't like the way it rides, the wheel will be offered for sale on here; 120mm OLD, so more suited to a track bike or vintage frame than a modern road frame.
I sort of don't get the whole thing of it. Can you leg break on it? Is the momentum still there pushing your legs around like a normal fixed, but you have 3 gears and not just the 1.
???
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Yes and yes. However, the old ASC had quite a bit of lash in between "driving" and "braking", and this is likely to be the same in the two geared-down ratios. Too much lash ruins the "flywheel effect" up hills, so it will be interesting to see what it's like.
Shifting is obviously done while still pedalling, but not under power.
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It's starting to get real now. What was the final price? Where did you get the spoke length data from, or is that the same as one of the existing 5 speeds?
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It's supposed to be a hack of the 5-speed, so presumably has two declutchable suns.
I wonder if it'll share the 5-speed's propensity for disintegration ?
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It's been so long since the prototype that you'd hope they'd have fixed it by now. Anyway, it is in my hot little hands and I shall post some photos later, including the mechanism assuming I can get it out of the shell easily (they normally unscrew without much effort before they've been ridden).
Any lash will be easy to determine before it's built into a wheel; IIRC the ASC had no lash in direct drive, but was a bit sloppy in the two lower gears.
Final price was £180 plus £7 special delivery (about £70 over the odds TBH). I'll measure the hub for wheelbuilding data later; SA did produce a dimensioned drawing about a year ago but since then they have tinkered with the shell to make it take a separate freewheel - so fashionistas who can't cope with fixed can turn it into a £180 AW equivalent with the most efficient gear in the wrong place ???
I'm going to build it onto a Mavic A317 disc rim, because it won't run a brake and a non-disc rim gets horrible and spotty on the unused braking surfaces.
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Final price was £180 plus £7 special delivery (about £70 over the odds TBH).
It doesn't seem that bad, after a quick hunt around the only supplier I can find currently is Spa Cycles (http://spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b157s171p1811), who have them at £248.
I imagine they'll become more easily available, and possibly cheaper, eventually.
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No chance i will be getting one any time soon then at that price ::-)
Be interesting to see how good it is though.
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OK, here we go:
Wheelbuilding data:
Spoke hole diameter 67mm
Centreline to RH flange 24mm
Centreline to LH flange 29mm
This is for a 120mm hub; the shell of a 130mm hub may be more or less centred between the locknuts.
There is a small amount of lash in all gears, but it's just the planetary gears from the feel of it; only a couple of degrees so the "flywheel effect" should still work when climbing. The spring pull on the indicator is very high compared to an AM/AW/SRF3.
The bar-end shifter is very nice, although it will be possible to select positions in between gears; a trigger can't do that, which is why they are the traditional choice. However, the cable pull on this is different to a normal 3-speed trigger.
It comes with a nice LH domed axle nut with the SA logo, and everything else you need except the sprocket. I measured the maximum chainline as about 46mm, so it will fit in place of a Goldtec hub with no changes up front. You can have considerably lower chainline down to "track" standard by moving the spacers above, rather than below, the sprocket. It all feels very well made, with quite a lot of alloy bits.
In the end I decided not to take it apart, since there was no need to respace it so I didn't have to disturb the cones. I'll wait until they produce a PDF manual.
You get everything shown in the pictures EXCEPT the sprocket PLUS a cable inner and outer. I think you get a chainstay fulcrum clip as well but, if not, they're very cheap. I went for a traditional top tube fulcrum clip and seat cluster roller, which means most of the cable is run unsleeved and it can't be caught between the chain and chainring when fixing a puncture.
Pictures:
(http://www.peeble.com/s3x1.jpg)
(http://www.peeble.com/s3x2.jpg)
Now I need to get some spokes.
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8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
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Spa must be making an epic profit at £248! Unless the hub is a total dog like the old SW, I suspect SA will sell rather a lot of these. Sheldon Brown spent his latter years pumping up demand for such an item.
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Was passing Condor this afternoon, and spotted one of these on a Tempo. The combination (plus the fact that the frame was a jealousy-inducing Fratello gray) caused a little cognitive dissonance at first, but it looks pretty good overall. Certainly, I prefer the bar-end shifter to the old triggers.
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First Ebay listing I've spotted is for the whole kit at .....£250!
Sturmey Archer S3X FIXED GEAR 3speed HUB - fixie - NEW on eBay (end time 03-Dec-09 15:25:14 GMT) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sturmey-Archer-S3X-FIXED-GEAR-3speed-HUB-fixie-NEW_W0QQitemZ200401664497QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_sportsleisure_cycling_bikeparts_SR?hash=item2ea8deb9f1)
I notice that On One say not supplying (in a bike at any rate) because of doubts about longevity etc.
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It's been road tested for six months in Holland, they say. The old ASC was durable enough, although some people manage to destroy the SRF3 fairly quickly, because of its flimsy pawl masking arrangement. The S3X has no pawls.
Mine is going to be road tested in half an hour's time when Mrs Z gets home.
First impressions on cabling it up - there *is* a neutral :o but it does work silently.
It is really odd to get it spinning and then change gear, because the pedal rpm alters.
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It's all Adrian Clancy's fault - he let me ride his Sturmey-fixie after the last FNRttC, damn him!
I've just spoken to the Lovely Derek at Old Bike Trader (http://oldbiketrader.co.uk/contact.htm). He still has several S3X hubs left in stock (at much more sensible prices than the bandits on eBay) and one of them now has my name on it.
:D
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Just seen how many of the BRITONS' pounds sterling he requires for such a beast. Much cheaper than heshebay.
Just lookin', y'know, curiosity, like. I've not got a cunning plan for a commuting bike. Ohhhh no! *shakes head unconvincingly* ;D
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I rode mine to work today. SA are going to send me some updated hints for correct cable adjustment, but I think it's correct when the coloured blob (which is rather wide and imprecise) is just about to come out of the axle. Hasn't slipped again, and I think I may have knocked the lever with my gloved hand when it did.
I have suggested to SA that they should bring out a version of the venerable flick trigger, as these cannot be put into intermediate positions (clever chaps, those 1930s SA engineers ::-)). There is definitely a neutral between all gears.
The best thing about it is banging it into the 90" gear for downhills and keeping up with the roadies for once :demon: 52 x 15 is about right, although I also have a 16T.
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Just seen how many of the BRITONS' pounds sterling he requires for such a beast. Much cheaper than heshebay.
Just lookin', y'know, curiosity, like. I've not got a cunning plan for a commuting bike. Ohhhh no! *shakes head unconvincingly* ;D
If you want to have a go with mine, give me a shout. Obviously my bike won't fit you, but it will give you a fair idea.
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On my one I have the handlebar shifter which has three good clicks and, thus far, no gaps or false neutrals. SA describe this shifter as being alternatively useable on the downtube. It is, but not quite as simply as I would have hoped. I have this band on mount courtesy of Mr Nesbitt (Thanks again)
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p148/AdrianC_No1/Carlton/099.jpg)
The shifter doesn't quite point the right way though. As you can see the cable doesn't exit the shifter parallel to the downtube, forcing me to use an outer to get the cable to go the right way.
If however the shifter could be mounted so that the cable pointed the right way, when it is in the 3rd gear position, as it is here, the lever would be pointing downwards so far that tou could touch the wheel when changing gear.
(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p148/AdrianC_No1/Carlton/IMG_34291.jpg)
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I run the cable the traditional way - short length of outer to a fulcrum clip, roller at the seat cluster and then down to the indicator chain.
(http://www.peeble.com/s34.jpg)
The shifter is in the LH end of the handlebar. Given the special indicator, I'd strongly recommend an ordinary SA "porthole" nut so you can fit one of the plastic protectors; then if the bike falls over on its right hand side, the chain is safe.
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Adrian,
What happens if you try mounting it on the left side of the down tube?
Yes it means the cable is crossing the bottom bracket but does it sort out the cable exit alignment and the gear lever positions? or am I being daft?
Matthew
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I'll need to have a look at that.
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Charlotte, the S3X chainline is adjustable from about 41-45mm but you can make it Goldtec-friendly by slipping an extra 1mm spacer (I have one if you need it) under the sprocket. There is plenty of thread on the lockring to cope.
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Cheers, Rog. I'm going to use it with a Stronglight Mygal chainset and 107mm BB I've just bought from Priceshaggers (On One at eBay). No idea what the chainline is...
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A dedicated bike for it? Must be serious. I have the option of "real" fixed or S3X.
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I'm going to have my old Harry Quinn refinished and use that. I had to hack the chainset off after the threads stripped, so it looks like there will be a load of shiny new bits...
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Another option; for a shorter, cleaner cable run, mount the shifter on the seatstay:
Flickr: Archive of Pants Pants' uploads to Flickr on 12th January 2010
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/reefflop/archives/date-posted/2010/01/12/)
Mind you, for this to work well, you need a rack boss. I suppose you could find some kind of clamp to do the same job, though...?
Why stop there - what about the seat post?
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Squee!
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:sick:
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Another option; for a shorter, cleaner cable run, mount the shifter on the seatstay:
Flickr: Archive of Pants Pants' uploads to Flickr on 12th January 2010
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/reefflop/archives/date-posted/2010/01/12/)
Mind you, for this to work well, you need a rack boss. I suppose you could find some kind of clamp to do the same job, though...?
Why stop there - what about the seat post?
That looks good to me. I'm going to have a play with that
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I haz TEH S3X.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b187/vicechair/S3X/bfd85d2f.jpg)
Moar filthy hub pr0n here (http://bicycleslut.wordpress.com/2010/05/09/sturmey-archer-s3x-unboxed/).
:demon:
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An important tip:
Build it up, install it into the bike and cautiously ride it up a steep hill in the saddle, expecting it to slip. This screws the ball ring hard into the hub shell. Then adjust the bearings using the normal SA technique:
1) Back off both axle cones by several turns.
2) Screw the RH cone in finger tight then back it off no more than half a turn. Hold the axle (adjustable spanner on the flats - grip it between your knees) and cone so they cannot move, and lock it there with the locknut. Sadly SA don't use the brilliant tab washer any more, which made RH cone adjustment a breeze.
3) Only now can you adjust the LH cone. You should aim for infinitesmal play at the rim. Some SA hubs can be adjusted with zero play if they're unusually good examples.
Mine was too loose after the first ride; I don't think they pay much attention to it at the factory, but if the cone adjustment is incorrect, the false neutrals can be wider than they should be.
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I haz TEH S3X.
So you had a good long think about it then.
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::-)
An important tip:
Good advice, ta :)
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135 miles or so, and 2nd gear is pretty much run-in and not very noisy at all. 1st gear is still like a coffee grinder, although the pedals spin for about 12 revs with the wheel off the ground.
Evidence of a lack of efficiency - the hub is slightly warm (compared to the front one) after a ride. Must be 10W or so being dissipated in there.
I'll take it up to 200 miles, strip, clean and re-grease.
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Now that the frame's back from the powdercoaters (http://bicycleslut.wordpress.com/2010/05/19/s3xy-new-frame/) I've got almost everything I need to start building up the bike. Stooging about on the interwebs, I'm surprised at how few people have actually built one of these so far. Here's three of them:
All-City | Blog (http://allcitycycles.com/blog/view_entry/3_speed_fixed_big_block/#When:22:13:47Z)
sturmey archer « Back Alley Bikes (http://backalleybikes.wordpress.com/tag/sturmey-archer/)
Masi Speciale Sprint with Sturmey Archer S3X 3-speed on velospace, the place for bikes (http://velospace.org/node/27897)
I was interested how several builders have used a Surly cable hanger at the seatpost. If I don't get on with the downtube shifter, SJS sell this, which looks like it might be an elegant solution:
DMR Mech Verter converts bottom pull Derailleurs (http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-DMR-DMR-Mech-Verter--Converts-Bottom-Pull-Derailleurs-to-Top-Pull-10815.htm)
I won't get it built up for a couple of weeks, 'cos I'm going on holiday soon. But rest assured there will be pictures...
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A few weeks back, I rode with Philippa Wheeler, who'd fitted one to one of her road/path bikes. She reckoned it was very similar to the ASC in regards to backlash and she has covered a lot of miles on the ASC.
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*rubs thighs in lascivious Vic Reeves style*
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I met my first fellow on the road S3X rider this morning in Streatham. He had a grey Kogswell and is called Adam. The bike had metal mudguards one of which rattled enough to make the whole thing sound like a threshing machine.
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Now that the frame's back from the powdercoaters (http://bicycleslut.wordpress.com/2010/05/19/s3xy-new-frame/) I've got almost everything I need to start building up the bike. Stooging about on the interwebs, I'm surprised at how few people have actually built one of these so far. Here's three of them:
All-City | Blog (http://allcitycycles.com/blog/view_entry/3_speed_fixed_big_block/#When:22:13:47Z)
sturmey archer « Back Alley Bikes (http://backalleybikes.wordpress.com/tag/sturmey-archer/)
Masi Speciale Sprint with Sturmey Archer S3X 3-speed on velospace, the place for bikes (http://velospace.org/node/27897)
I was interested how several builders have used a Surly cable hanger at the seatpost. If I don't get on with the downtube shifter, SJS sell this, which looks like it might be an elegant solution:
DMR Mech Verter converts bottom pull Derailleurs (http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-DMR-DMR-Mech-Verter--Converts-Bottom-Pull-Derailleurs-to-Top-Pull-10815.htm)
I won't get it built up for a couple of weeks, 'cos I'm going on holiday soon. But rest assured there will be pictures...
As long as you have a normal-sized steel top tube, just get a SA fulcrum clip (not forgetting the insert) and SA roller. That's how it was done in t'old days.
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Thanks to the fabulous and splendid offices of one Mr Zachariah* Zoidberg Esq., I am now in possession of a selection of band-on DT bosses, one of which is bound** to offer me the attachment point I need for mounting the shifter.
Should this prove less than adequate, thank you for your advice Mr Z - I'm sure I shall have little problem in sourcing an alternative solution
*Bet you didn't know that was his real name, did you?
**Ba-doom, tish! D'ya see what I did there?
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I have my S3X in bits. Photos when I've cleaned it up, before I regrease and reassemble it. There are very few parts, and no-one should be scared to strip one. To do this without damage you need a selection of cone spanners, some small circlip pliers and the Sturmey-Archer ball ring spanner (http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-Sturmey-Archer-Sturmey-Archer-C-Spanner-for-Hub-Gear-Internals-2805.htm).
One nice thing about a reversible drive is that the mechanism doesn't screw itself so hard into the shell that you need a scaffold pole to unscrew it.
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An important tip:
Build it up, install it into the bike and cautiously ride it up a steep hill in the saddle, expecting it to slip. This screws the ball ring hard into the hub shell. Then adjust the bearings using the normal SA technique:
1) Back off both axle cones by several turns.
2) Screw the RH cone in finger tight then back it off no more than half a turn. Hold the axle (adjustable spanner on the flats - grip it between your knees) and cone so they cannot move, and lock it there with the locknut. Sadly SA don't use the brilliant tab washer any more, which made RH cone adjustment a breeze.
3) Only now can you adjust the LH cone. You should aim for infinitesmal play at the rim. Some SA hubs can be adjusted with zero play if they're unusually good examples.
Mine was too loose after the first ride; I don't think they pay much attention to it at the factory, but if the cone adjustment is incorrect, the false neutrals can be wider than they should be.
Does this mean that, unlike a "normal" hub, the the cones each side are independent of each other?
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No, they're not, but only the RH cone determines how tight the internals are; it's compressing them against something immovable (generally a stop on the axle). There has to be clearance between the internals for them to rotate freely at different speeds, and to allow lubricant to penetrate.
The Sturmey-Archer grease for the internals is interesting stuff - it's a dark brown grease and oil mix, and can actually flow (slowly). The SRAM IGH grease is very stiff, like toothpaste.
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Ah right.
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Ok, this is what's inside (clickness for bigness)
(http://www.peeble.com/s3xpartssmall.jpg) (http://www.peeble.com/s3xparts.jpg)
This is the axle key. The LH dog is quite shiny already, although it doesn't really show up in the photo.
(http://www.peeble.com/s3xaxlekey.jpg)
This is the slot in which it slides - notice the wear.
(http://www.peeble.com/s3xaxleslot.jpg)
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Cool. Although I doubt I'll be doing it to mine.
Do you ever put them back together and wonder why you have a bit left over?
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If you ignore the sprocket, spacers and lockring and the axle fittings, you'll see that actually there are only ten internal parts :)
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"And this is the piling swivel, Which in your case you have not got."
I ran a quiz at the Tandem Club rally. For the "table top" bit, every team was presented with an exploded view of a Sram 3 x 7 hub and list of parts in alphabetical order. They just had to match the part to the position on the diagram.
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I find SRAMs more confusing. They like their circlips, do the Germans.
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Update: it's much quieter after its service, probably because it has more of the brown runny grease inside. Not as much of a rattle in top, and less coffee grinder noise in 1st. Couldn't make it slip up the steepest hill in the village, and it shifts much more easily; it used to stick a bit going into top. Whether this will persist as the grease gets displaced from the axle slot, I'll have to wait and see.
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So for those of us not willing to strip the whole thing down (I'm too scared of pingfuckits) do we just schlosh a load of new jollop in there?
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There are no pingfuckits. Honestly. This does not apply to any other SA hub though!
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I had a go on a fixie today that had the 3 speed hub, now I want one. What are they going for now ?
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About £180. They're not actually worth it once you see what's inside (it's a hack of the X-RF5), but they're unique.
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"And this is the piling swivel, Which in your case you have not got."
One of Clarion's very favourite poems. ;D
'They call it easing the spring'.
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Roger, shouldn't this kind of material be kept to the Not Safe For Work board? :P ;)
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There are no pingfuckits. Honestly. This does not apply to any other SA hub though!
I guess all the pingfuckits are the freewheel pawls, and there shouldn't be any in this.
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"And this is the piling swivel, Which in your case you have not got."
One of Clarion's very favourite poems. ;D
'They call it easing the spring'.
He's a man of taste (just look who he's getting married to).
The round I mentioned up there ^ in the Tandem Club Quiz was entitled "The Naming of Parts". I'm pleased to say at least one person understood the reference. We're very araldite erudite in the TC y'know.
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I was in Edwardes in Camberwell, the other day, and noticed they have a Charge Plug fitted with an S3X hanging in the window. Very tempted to try it out (to get a feel for both the Plug and the S3X) but I can't afford to buy it right now.
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Courtesy of the kind generosity of a forummer, I have now had the opportunity to try an S3X (just round the block for now, but I shall be trying it out for a commute).
The lash is interesting, and I had to try hard to stop my brain telling me my chain was loose. :-\
The change is nice & positive. I like that. I wish it had a trigger, but there you go - can't have everything.
Once you get the idea, it starts to feel like a SEEKRIT WEPPUN. :demon:
Should be a blast tomorrow. :thumbsup:
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"And this is the piling swivel, Which in your case you have not got."
So . . . you did that at school, too? ;D
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Why leave it to school? It's a lovely poem to read in the Spring of any year. Or any time you want to be reminded of Spring, while caught up in gloomier times/work.
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I'm increasingly tempted to build my new fixed with one of these - BUT I'd really like to have a try with one - none of the shops around me have a bike to try.
So, is there anyone within reasonable striking distance of Stratford-upon-Avon that has such a machine that I might have a spin on please? (Ideally to ride 15 - 20 miles - not necessarily hills, just to get the idea of changing and the ratios)
I'm tall, 6'4", but for a test I could probably ride any size and find out whether it's for me or not.
Thanks
Rob
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You can borrow mine if you like. The cable stops clip on.
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I have just geared mine down a bit from 48x16 to 48x18. Leaving it in the top gear before meant that I was never getting up to speed between each set of lights. With the lower gearing it feels much more like a proper fixie.
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Hey Roger did you feel it when TJ split your rim?(http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p148/AdrianC_No1/IMAG0823.jpg)
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;D I worked Roger's rim hard. I kept pounding away till it just couldn't take any more.
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Is that the Open Pro? I always knew they sucked. Impressive wear for less than a year, though - I never ran a brake on it, so it was "as new".
The ceramic front rim on my commuting fixie has easily paid for itself after three winters. I got it in a sale and only paid about £40; I'd easily have trashed one conventional rim by now. It doesn't even wear the brake pads much now that it's run-in - it's had the same pair of Swisstop blue pads for 18 months and they're only about 1/4 down.
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It is the Open Pro, and I can't complain about Mavic. I've put a lot of miles into that wheel, and it's my bloody stupid fault for not keeping a closer eye on the wear. Oh - and it took 55km of mostly off-road riding (and then sitting in the sun) from the split being noticed to it actually failing. I was honking up hills in the dark with a camping load and praying that it would hold.
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Am I the only person in the world still riding with an S3X? ;D
Spoke failure on the tourer forced me back onto the fixed for commuting, and I love it! :D :D :D
I did have a scary moment when it went to Brixton Cycles for a service, and the chap rang me to say it was probably dead as it had a load of water in it, mixed with swarf :o
I established that the iron filings were from the badly engaging gears when I was using the SA indexed lever, and he bathed the workings in oil as a last ditch attempt. To his surprise and delight, it came up lovely, and was reassembled. He wasn't convinced about using a friction lever, so I gave in and said he could fit an indexed one. LSS, he rang me the next day to say he'd gone back to the friction lever.
Bit of a tweak at the weekend to re-splay the brake levers which he had 'straightened' (tbf, I hadn't explained), and the cockpit is pretty much perfect.
Could do with some better legs, but, all in all, it's been good and surprisingly quick :)
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The ASC is a lot nicer to ride but has the same "will it/won't it" bottom gear issue, which makes hill climbing a nervy affair. In fact, the way to adjust an ASC is just to get the cable ultra-tight in bottom gear, and let the others look after themselves.
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I no longer have any concerns about finding the gears on the S3X. The Shimano lever I use coincidentally has just the right length of throw that, if the cable is *just* slack in top, the bottom gear engages neatly at the other end. Of course, it's possible to engage neutral if you want to, but you're not forced abruptly into it by rogue indexing.
Pleased* to hear the ASC is running well.
* and a little jealous
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The ASC is a far more complex design - there are two epicyclics, one of which is only used to rotate the primary sun gear slowly in the direction of the drive to narrow the gear ratio in middle gear. It's ingenious and doesn't sap much power; SA used to trumpet the slow speed of the internals as a major contributor to efficiency.
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That's clever!
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So what are the prices or should I convert a 3 speed hub?
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An S3X is about £200, I think, with shifter. An ASC is more than that without the (incredibly rare) shifter, although any SA 4 speed shifter can be converted to an ASC shifter if you have access to a grinder. Most ASCs are 40 hole, which is a PITA these days, and getting a complete one with the right indicator and toggle chain is tricky.
To be honest, neither of them are all that satisfactory due to the lash and the presence of false neutrals. The ASC is preferable as it's quieter, has closer ratios, and is more efficient, but you'll never quite trust low gear when climbing out of the saddle. Could a better one be designed? Undoubtedly, but the R&D costs would be horrendous for such a small-volume item. Both ASC and S3X are based on existing 4- or 5-speed models to save miney.
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I have a S3X on my old fixed bike (1965 Viking) and another on a newer bike - when i got the bike shop to build up the wheel they supplied the normal Sturmey shifter (having they said checked with their supplier) - it never really worked satisfactorily in bottom gear and I replaced it with the S3X shifter (which has a greater pull length for bottom gear) and that resolved the problem - I do honk up hills so i now think I should be worried !
The back lash is the biggest let down for me as it lacks the sweeter motion of basic fixed.
I have another spare one from e bay built into a 700 rim if anyone in the area wants to try one (just South of Bristol).
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The lash is a bit agricultural, but you do get used to it - and use it, funnily enough.
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I have been out on my S3X Solo in the last few days, and it is gorgeously liberating! :)
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What is the long term feedback on the longevity of these, any still in use after being used now for a good #of years?
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They last a long time sat at the back of the disappointing bike bits pile.
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They last a long time sat at the back of the disappointing bike bits pile.
+1. I think I had mine on the bike for one ride before deciding it was neither fish nor fowl IMO. I must dig mine out and see if I can flog it.
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Hmmm......well, and fool and his money is soon parted: I'm up for a purchase to see if it disappoints me as well, if anyone wants to sell one one, either built into a rim or not.
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parts diagram:
http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.com/files/view-1121.pdf (http://www.sturmey-archerheritage.com/files/view-1121.pdf)
The design is clearly based on the (W) 5s hub architecture, but relatively few parts are actually interchangeable.
As noted above the shifter uses cable pulls that are not the same as other SA 3s hubs; you need to use the correct S3X shifter with this hub.
cheers
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I have one on my fixed and a spare that I am happy to sell on, I bought it off E bay some years ago and I've not used it - the hub I don't think has been used at all, built with what looks like new stainless spokes (marked SAP) plain gauge with a Mavic rim 36 hole double eyelet, 20.3mm outside width, 13.5mm internal - rim has very slight brake wear marks, it has a ding in the rim in one spot right on the edge (snake bite ?) but I don't think it will cause a problem. Also 14/15t sprockets, spacers,track nuts etc.
I have a bar end shifter or trigger option but no cables, also will just need the anchorage/adjuster bits which are available from SJS to set it up.
Open to offers - would like it used as opposed to sitting in my bike shed so very reasonable - I'm in North Somerset.
I find the backlash just takes away the purity of fixed but at my age its a compromise to get up the hills !
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'SAP' markings means 'Sapim' brand stainless spokes.
cheers
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built with what looks like new stainless spokes (marked SAP) plain gauge with a Mavic rim 36 hole double eyelet. Also 14/15t sprockets, spacers,track nuts etc, bar end shifter or trigger option, no cables,
Open to offers
Pm sent Aeoleus
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To complete the circle- I got one (thanks to a member here) and I've put about 500 miles on it now, so here's my quick summary: I didn't find it difficult to set up- the handlebar end cable pull works fine, and I have not had any events like it spontaneously being pulled from 1st to 2nd or 2nd to 3rd, even honking out the saddle up some of North Yorkshires finest gradients- it just hasn't done that. The cable run is via a pulley on the top tube. I didn't find the adjustment very finicky to get right.
I've taken it apart, cleaned and regreased it, and nothing internal looks awry- the only comment I can make is that, having looked at the mechanism whereby the sliding dog in the axle (that is actuated by the cable pull) has to move between the stops that engage the planet cogs for 1st and 2nd, I'm not surprised that there is some chipping on one corner of the dog. It's likely caused by shifting up under pressure, or from 3rd straight through to 1st without pausing in 2nd- the leading edge corner gets mashed by navigating from one set of quickly rotating stops to the other, but it doesn't affect the change. The lash is caused by the space between the adjacent stops for the particular set of planet cogs that the dog can move between. It takes a little getting used to, but its not excessive.
False neutrals do exist, but if the gear lever is snapped in position, the indicator chain adjusted correctly, and the axle sliding dog isn't smaller than it should be, then you won't find them unless you want to.
I've found in common with others, that 1st gear is harder work to push than the bald gear inches would indicate it should be if you were on the equivalent fixed gear-inch, but its agreeable enough to get you up hills. The strip and re-lube helped ease that "feature" but hasn't taken it away.
All in all, I like it. (It's also fun to watch the eyeballs from those with 22 gears avaialble as I mash up hills with gritted teeth on a 70's frame with sprint bars, hub gear, 1/8 chain and my non-aero brake cables and bar-end changer looping elegantly around the handlebar area)
All good fun. It's now my go-to fixed.
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Still want a 3 speed fixed but don't even ride fixed any more ;)
Actually rarely ride.
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I'm glad you are having fun with it !
It is essential that you use the S3X shifter as the pull ratio is different to other SA 3 speeds.
Did you need a special spanner to take it apart ? - I think mine is overdue a greasing up !
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Hi Aeolus,
Yup, i am using the s3x specific shifter. Nothing special needed in the way of tools once the sprocket lockring is off- only some circlips pliers (and a ball ring spanner if you don't want to use a drift + hammer).
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It really needs a trigger shifter that flicks between positions with no possibility of intermediate neutrals. The ASC had one. I guess they contain a bit too much actual metal for Sunrace SA's accountants.