Talk to me about MP3 players

[Gattopardo]

A friend wants an MP3 player and asked for my advice. (I dont know why either)

So what MP3 player would you recommend.  I'm looking for something that is easy to use and simple to add and remove music and audio books.

Maybe a radio would be good.

What would you recomend and where would you buy it from.

Thanks

[citoyen]

Well, I love my iPod and I've yet to find a music player+software combination that's easier to use than iPod+iTunes.

However, if audiobooks are your friend's thing, then an iPod is perhaps not the best option as its support for audiobooks is poor. But I don't know what support for audiobooks is like on other players - it may be better, it may not.

The iPod doesn't have a built-in radio either, though you can get an FM radio attachment that also acts as a remote control. I have one of these and I find it excellent. Roberts also do a DAB version, if DAB is your thing.

Creative, iriver and Archos are also brands worth considering. I've not heard many favourable reports of the Zune and Sony Walkman MP3 players don't have the most user-friendly software in my experience, although the players themselves are good.

d.

[PrettyBoyTim]

I like the non-Apple players because most of them just appear as an external storage drive when you plug them in to your PC. You can then just drag your music files (or anything else you need to store) onto the drive and the mp3 player will pick it up. My old Rio player worked that way as did my Sony one. I never liked the iTunes sync stuff; my Wife and daughters have iPods but they always seemed to be having problems with them losing songs.

The big advantage with the Apple players is that there's a huge market in compatible devices - e.g. docking stations, that kind of thing.

[citoyen]

Here's a report on the best mp3 players for audiobooks - Creative Zen seems to score highly:
Best MP3 players for audiobooks, Audible - CNET Reviews

I like the non-Apple players because most of them just appear as an external storage drive when you plug them in to your PC. You can then just drag your music files (or anything else you need to store) onto the drive and the mp3 player will pick it up.

On the other hand, iTunes does all the dragging-and-dropping for you.

iTunes is really just an interface for managing the database of your music files. With a large digital music collection, a database is a much quicker and easier way to navigate than clicking backwards and forwards through Windows folders.

I don't mind being tied into proprietary software when it does the job so well. YMMV.

my Wife and daughters have iPods but they always seemed to be having problems with them losing songs.

Usually caused by interrupting the syncing process before it's complete.

d.

[Gattopardo]

After a few more texts they woul like a screen to see what they are listening to.

I have an original zune and I'm happy with it.

[PrettyBoyTim]

On the other hand, iTunes does all the dragging-and-dropping for you.

If iTunes would store the songs in some sensible format on the iPod I'd agree but it almost seems like it's been purposely designed to make it difficult for you to transfer the music off onto some other device. On all the players I've had since my first one (a Rio PMP 300 that connected to the computer via the parallel port :-P ) I've had all my music stored as /Music/Artist/Album/<track>_<songname>.mp3.

If I ever want to copy an album from my device onto another computer, it's as simple as plugging it in, opening the folder and dragging the files over. No need to install any software or register my device with it or anything.

Having said that, it is useful to have some software sometimes if you want to sync a subset of your music with your mp3 player, which I suppose is where iTunes comes in. Recently I've been using Songbird to do that for me.

[citoyen]

After a few more texts they woul like a screen to see what they are listening to.

I think most decent MP3 players have that these days. Except the tiny ones.

d.

[citoyen]

it almost seems like it's been purposely designed to make it difficult for you to transfer the music off onto some other device.

You can hold different types of data on your iPod - there's your music library, which you transfer/remove via iTunes, and then there's your other stuff, which you transfer/remove by drag-and-drop.

It's true that you can't download stuff from your music library onto anything other than the computer your iPod is synced with, but non-music library data can be copied to other computers easily. That other data could be music files...

Having said that, it is useful to have some software sometimes if you want to sync a subset of your music with your mp3 player, which I suppose is where iTunes comes in. Recently I've been using Songbird to do that for me.

Yes, I'm only bigging up iTunes because that's what I use, but as far as I'm concerned, any decent music management software would be preferable to doing it manually. I know there are all sorts of options that are at least just as good as iTunes, if not better - Songbird, Rhapsody etc.

d.

[MattH]

Whilst this topic has been discussed before, new devices do keep coming onto the market, so IMHO it is worth asking for an updated view.

I've been using one of these for a couple of years. It gets regularly soaked in sweat and rain (I use it whilst cycling), and is now starting to be unreliable (reboots randomly). The supplied headphones were naff, I use some Sennheisers. I attached a lanyard to it through the microphone slots.

The internal LiIon lasts for around the 8 hours they quote (never actually measured it, but that seems about right). Downsides - the radio is rubbish, and playlist support is non-existent. It seems to play things in the order that you saved them onto it, but not always. Doing a drag-drop of an album can result in odd playing orders depending upon the software you use to copy it over (it acts like a USB drive)

Now I'm looking for a new one. I don't mind a rechargeable - on long rides I carry a 4-AA cell USB charger anyway for my GPS. Charging the GPS on overnight sections (when I need the backlight on) and MP3 during the day works fine for me - but the MP3 must play when being charged. Actually, for commuting use I like the rechargeable bit - just plug it in at work or home and forget about it, rather than carrying spare cells or having to pull out a rechargeable AAA to recharge it.

I'd like playlist support (m3u, whatever) - that seems missing from almost every budget player.

I'd like a display - sometimes I want music, sometimes I want audiobooks, and I change mid-ride, so need to see what I'm doing.

Capacity - 1 gig or more. Shouldn't be a problem nowadays.

It needs to be reasonably rugged. It will get soaked in sweat and rain (not submerged, just sitting next to sweaty skin). This is what puts me off iPods - I'd be far too worried about damaging one to use it seriously on the bike.

Sound quality isn't a major issue as long as it isn't atrocious. I use it on low volume music or audio books, quiet enough to hear external noises means I'll not hear tiny nuances in the music anyway. Similarly I don't care about the included headphones - I have some that are comfortable, easy to use on the bike and sound good enough.

[pdm]

I have used several MP3 players over the past few years, iPod, Samsung, Phone incarnations, etc.

The major disadvantage of iPod is its tie in to aac and mp3 formats with no provision for playing ogg formats (which I prefer)

My FAVOURITE player is the Cowon S9 16Gbytes, 48hrs+ audio playing time - a single charge lasts me a week. easy to use and optimise. Expensive (£199 - a 32GB version also available for £259 - OTT really) but it works, the quality is unbeatable with better earphones and it has given no problems. I set the "lock" setting to lock everything otherwise the touch screen activates while in my sweaty jersey top....
(The Cowon D2 series are cheaper and also look got though I have not used one.)

On the cheaper side, the Samsung YP series are also excellent value - I had an old YP5 which was very good. (The latest incarnation is the YP-Q2) at £70. The touch screen version (YP-P3) also looks very good.

Being a Linux user I do not bother wirth DRM stuff, preferring to buy non-DRM music and ripping my own CDs or, as a last resort, simply converting DRM stuff to ogg before listening to it.

[citoyen]

The major disadvantage of iPod is its tie in to aac and mp3 formats with no provision for playing ogg formats (which I prefer)

It seems slightly odd to describe it as being "tied in" when you're talking about non-proprietary formats that are de facto standards, ie supported by pretty much all digital music players. Ogg is a non-standard format.

Besides, the iPod is hardly unique in this respect - Sony and Zune devices don't support ogg either. Why do you consider it a "major disadvantage" of the iPod in particular?

And just out of interest, why do you prefer ogg anyway? I hope it's to do with sound quality - please don't say "because it's open source".

d.

[Frenchie]

I like the non-Apple players because most of them just appear as an external storage drive when you plug them in to your PC.

I like that too; I have a 2GB Sony stick which I bought as an incredible offer (£18) on the web. It has been going strong for quite a while, is easy to use, sufficient for me. And I can take it to run, on travel etc. with no fear of damaging nor losing it. Great little package and convenient to us in conjunction with my laptop when I travel too. I use mine with the Windows Media Player.

[Charlotte]

I've just killed my Creative Zen V plus's screen.  I used to tuck it inna jersey pocket, but the sweat has finally got to it and although it'll still play music fine, the screen's gone so faded that I can't see it any more.  Arse. 

Don't buy a Zen V if you're a sweaty Betty 

So what's of a simillar capacity (4Gb) and more rugged?  I'm tempted to get a swimmer's MP3 player that's totally waterproof and have done with it.  But they're expensive and never have a screen so you can only really run them as shuffle players.

[Andrij]

So what's of a simillar capacity (4Gb) and more rugged?  I'm tempted to get a swimmer's MP3 player that's totally waterproof and have done with it.  But they're expensive and never have a screen so you can only really run them as shuffle players.

Convince Sonim to develop an mp3 player?

[rogerzilla]

I've just killed my Creative Zen V plus's screen.  I used to tuck it inna jersey pocket, but the sweat has finally got to it and although it'll still play music fine, the screen's gone so faded that I can't see it any more.  Arse. 

Don't buy a Zen V if you're a sweaty Betty 

...a drugged-up 7-foot tall flame-haired sweaty and sweary bench-pressing amazon

[mike]

my zen V died for the same reason.  Having researched 'waterproof MP3' it looks like they're all for swimming and crap, so I'm going for a little ipod and a rubbery case.

no drugs, not 7 feet tall, not flame haired, bench pressing or an amazon, just sweaty and sweary.

[Hot Flatus]

I guess it depends on how much storage your friend would like.  If not much then something like THIS would be a fair choice.  If you can avoid having to use software to upload music then so much the better.  Drag and drop is the way to go.

I don't know if things have improved bu I wouldn't really recommend Creative going on my experience with them over the last 6 years. The software is appalling. IPods etc are lovely, but pricey.

[pdm]

The major disadvantage of iPod is its tie in to aac and mp3 formats with no provision for playing ogg formats (which I prefer)

It seems slightly odd to describe it as being "tied in" when you're talking about non-proprietary formats that are de facto standards, ie supported by pretty much all digital music players. Ogg is a non-standard format.

Besides, the iPod is hardly unique in this respect - Sony and Zune devices don't support ogg either. Why do you consider it a "major disadvantage" of the iPod in particular?

And just out of interest, why do you prefer ogg anyway? I hope it's to do with sound quality - please don't say "because it's open source".

d.

To set your mind at rest:
I like ogg because for any given bitrate, the quality is audibly better - I tend to use "Quality 8" ogg for all my audio files which equates to ~250kbps VBR. File sizes are quite acceptable at this setting. With decent earphones, the devices I use and Ogg files, I find the quality pleasing 
But I guess that as time goes on and my ears deteriorate, my ability to distinguish will fade.... 
I considered the lack of ogg support by the iPod, Zune and Sony as a disadvantage because most of my music was already in Ogg format on my computer (and home network) before I bought my first small portable player having adopted ogg for quality and licensing reasons.

For information, mp3 is a proprietary format (the main patent holder being the Fraunhofer Society) even though it is an "industry standard" (ISO CD 11172) - the last patents on mp3 will apparently expire in 2017 in the US.

[citoyen]

I like ogg because for any given bitrate, the quality is audibly better - I tend to use "Quality 8" ogg for all my audio files which equates to ~250kbps VBR. File sizes are quite acceptable at this setting. With decent earphones, the devices I use and Ogg files, I find the quality pleasing 

You're lucky - you have better ears than me. I can't tell the difference in quality between, say, 192kbps MP3 and CD. I suppose it's a blessing, really - it means I can afford to be less fussy about audio quality. 

(I've actually ripped all my CDs as 256kbps AAC.)

I considered the lack of ogg support by the iPod, Zune and Sony as a disadvantage because most of my music was already in Ogg format on my computer (and home network) before I bought my first small portable player having adopted ogg for quality and licensing reasons.

That's fair enough - I just wondered why you were picking on the iPod when Zune and Sony (and others) don't support ogg either, but I guess what you meant to say was that it's a major disadvantage of any player if it doesn't support ogg, right?

For information, mp3 is a proprietary format (the main patent holder being the Fraunhofer Society) even though it is an "industry standard" (ISO CD 11172) - the last patents on mp3 will apparently expire in 2017 in the US.

Sure. And AAC is also a proprietary format in that sense. But I didn't really mean proprietary vs open source, rather "proprietary" in the sense of you can only play it on one make of equipment (eg in the way that games consoles only support games in their own format).

AAC and MP3 are "non-proprietary" formats in the sense that they are widely supported and accepted as industry standards - in the same way that Blu-ray is now a de facto industry standard. Ogg is not a standard format in that sense. So, yeah, I can see why lack of support for ogg is a problem for you, but it's not an issue for most people.

d.

[Gattopardo]

Well after taking to the person I seem to be more lost.

so decided I should ask her a few questions.  The questions are:

Do you want  a radio?  Digital Radio?
Would you prefer charge from a computer USB or batteries that you change?
How many hours/gb of music do you want to store?
What format is your current music in if any?

Can you think of any to add?  I don't think  the sweaty or waterproof will matter and ill just complecate matters.

Creative Zen 4gb mosaics ae £20 at clas olensen in croyden.

[Treewheeler]

I asked about these a while ago and as a result Luddite here bought a Sony 8mb from Amazon for £53
Even I found it all very easy to use and have put all my C.D collection on it over a couple of evenings.
To protect it when sweaty I use a ziplock food bag.
However, I've got to find a way of charging it that doesn't involve plugging it into a computer.
Any ideas there?

[citoyen]

However, I've got to find a way of charging it that doesn't involve plugging it into a computer.
Any ideas there?

Presumably it charges by USB, so you need something like this:
USB Mains Charger Adapter

You just plug the USB cable (the one that plugs into your computer) into the adapter, and the adapter into the wall socket.

d.

[L CC]

a way of charging it that doesn't involve plugging it into a computer.

And if you're away from other energy sources you can use the power of the sun...

in pink

[Treewheeler]

Whay hay!
 Thanks for all that.

[BornAgainCyclist]

Can I sneak in another question on this thread?  I have an iPod but my wife has announced a desire for an MP3 player with FM tuner.  Will I/she be able to use iTunes on my Mac to write to it?