"Tired driver in crash", says Telegraph. FNRttC?

[matthew]

I don't think he needs to defend himself in this case.

Quite so. The idea that he is responsible in any way for the actions of 100 people for the next four hours after his rides finish simply doesn't hold water does it?

Agreed, but my reading of Simon's post on CC is that Simon being Simon still did (and probably does) feel some of that responsibility even if it is totally unreasonable to expect him to do anything about it.

[Wendy]

Agreed, but my reading of Simon's post on CC is that Simon being Simon still did (and probably does) feel some of that responsibility even if it is totally unreasonable to expect him to do anything about it.

That's because he's such a good guy, and of course is not to blame at all.

[Tewdric]

I don't think he needs to defend himself in this case.

Quite so. The idea that he is responsible in any way for the actions of 100 people for the next four hours after his rides finish simply doesn't hold water does it?

Quite.  The danger with this tragic case is that it will alert parties like the Coroner, the police and local authorities to one of the risks that is inherent in long overnight organised bike rides.  The consequence may well be referral to a local authority led safety advisory group which would inevitably make recommendations to organisers to fully comply with the HSE red guide and have an event plan covering arrangements for getting tired participants home safely.  This may involve establishing sleeping facilities, laying on transport or other measures to avoid repeats of what, very sadly, happened here.  They may also get into the habit of specifying route signage, stewarding and other measures that will change the way this sort of event is approached. 

[gordon taylor]

Agreed, but my reading of Simon's post on CC is that Simon being Simon still did (and probably does) feel some of that responsibility even if it is totally unreasonable to expect him to do anything about it.

That's because he's such a good guy, and of course is not to blame at all.

+1

No, + a million.

[mmmmartin]

  The danger with this tragic case is that it will alert parties like the Coroner, the police and local authorities to one of the risks that is inherent in long overnight organised bike rides.  The consequence may well be referral to a local authority led safety advisory group which would inevitably make recommendations to organisers to fully comply with the HSE red guide and have an event plan covering arrangements for getting tired participants home safely.  This may involve establishing sleeping facilities, laying on transport or other measures to avoid repeats of what, very sadly, happened here.  They may also get into the habit of specifying route signage, stewarding and other measures that will change the way this sort of event is approached.

Nonsense. This was a car crash in Hertfordshire caused by a tired driver. The law took its course.
Getting riders home from the FNRttC which is usually either by train or riding home is an entirely different matter. Audax and LDWA event organisers are plainly already aware of the need to provide sleeping places and there are frequent warnings in entry details etc.
And the judge said there was no evidence he had fallen asleep at the wheel but the cramp in his leg had combined with hs tiredness to make him lose control.

[MikeFromLFE]

I've ridden Audax, I've ridden FNRTTC and I've worked night shifts. If I had to pick the real baddie, I'd pick night shifts, but they all need to be dealt with carefully. It's not a matter of this is good and that is bad. It's a matter of learning your limitations.

I'd agree with that - it's a while since I worked overnight (in the NHS I did do the occasional 36 hour stints, and many 24 hour sessions) and I felt seriously ill afterwards, and certainly not safe on the drive home - and that's one reason I stopped doing them. caveat: It's also a year or two since I've ridden overnight, and I have no knowledge of FNRttC, only AUK events.

But - how much publicity would this crash have had if the driver had just finished a 'long' night shift in a strenuous occupation?

[Feline]

I've driven home after many 'all-nighters' (I work nights anyway so that's a normal commute for me). I find there's a difference in how I feel at the wheel after work and how I feel after an epic bike ride. Getting in a comfy warm car after several hours in the cold on the bike is a particular risk factor for me feeling the dozies. I find even an hour's sleep in the car massively improves my alertness and concentration, so I always plan to do that before driving home, and at any stage in the journey home afterwards if I start feeling sleepy. I think the worst I've ever been was after the Old Roads 300 where the latter section of the ride was incredibly wet and wild and hilly. The drive home was only about 75 mins but after about 15 I knew I couldn't do it safely so pulled off at Taunton and slept in a lay by for an hour then carried on the last half an hour home. On the way home from work I tend to find my brain is busy winding down and without the contentedly-knackered post exercise thing I don't get sleepy. The ultimate cure is to cycle commute anyway.

I think Tewdric is absolutely right about what could happen if those pulling the strings of 'elf and safety' found out the details of what audax entails. You can cause a crash just as easily asleep on your bike as in a car, and rides like PBP and LEL must surely pose some risk to other road users. I am often surprised that we have so far got away with this seemingly unnoticed.

[Peter]

I can see a lot of thought-provoking stuff in your post, Feline.  I have posted (quite a while ago) about the problems of over-tiredness on the long-distance stuff.  I got the bum's rush from a couple of the old hands for this but I think it's certainly something that should be considered.  Certainly it is the rider's personal responsibilty not to be unsafe (and I'm hoping for my first SR this season) but I wonder what a court would think of the fact that the minimum speeds for a 600 are the same as for a 200.  Certainly the speeds are not colossal but it is (I think) a fair point.  We then have the question of whether or not the minimum speed for a 600 is as much to do with an organiser's perfectly-understandable desire to have an event that won't run over into Monday.  Slightly OT even 200s are pretty impossible to use public transport to get to for an 8am start, especially since they are nearly all on a Sunday, which is surely a relic of competing or imitating club-runs?

@ millimole: in fairness, there was a lot of media coverage about the driver who caused that bad rail-crash (Hatfield?) but it is true that there is very little, if any coverage of the number of people who are maimed or die at the hands of over-worked doctors, either at work or on their way home.  (Preferred your previous avatar, by the way, but current one also good!)

edited for typo and ETA section in bold

[AndyH]

  The danger with this tragic case is that it will alert parties like the Coroner, the police and local authorities to one of the risks that is inherent in long overnight organised bike rides.  The consequence may well be referral to a local authority led safety advisory group which would inevitably make recommendations to organisers to fully comply with the HSE red guide and have an event plan covering arrangements for getting tired participants home safely.  This may involve establishing sleeping facilities, laying on transport or other measures to avoid repeats of what, very sadly, happened here.  They may also get into the habit of specifying route signage, stewarding and other measures that will change the way this sort of event is approached.

Nonsense. This was a car crash in Hertfordshire caused by a tired driver. The law took its course.
Getting riders home from the FNRttC which is usually either by train or riding home is an entirely different matter. Audax and LDWA event organisers are plainly already aware of the need to provide sleeping places and there are frequent warnings in entry details etc.
And the judge said there was no evidence he had fallen asleep at the wheel but the cramp in his leg had combined with hs tiredness to make him lose control.

Sorry mmMartin, it is not nonsense, Tewdric is spot on here. If you take risk assessment to it's logical conclusion he is 100% correct.

FWIW I've had bad moments driving home after long Audaxes so I've learned not to do it. A warm car is exactly the place you are going to fall asleep after a long ride. Best do it at 0mph than 70.

TG - you don't drive, cycling home (probably a long way in your case ) is different. Cars tend to put you to sleep.

[liam_whippet]

@Peter,

You're thinking of Selby [not Hatfield]?

[Peter]

@Peter,

You're thinking of Selby [not Hatfield]?

Liam, you're right, thanks.

[mattc]

<snip>
But - how much publicity would this crash have had if the driver had just finished a 'long' night shift in a strenuous occupation?

A good question, but I think we should ask another one too:
How much publicity has THIS crash had, outside of cycling fora?

People die in cars every day (sadly), it's only big news if something bizarre happened. "Cramp in leg" is pretty low grade as excuses go
I haven't gone looking for other coverage, maybe it's out there? If not, then perhaps we shouldn't start worrying about it.

[Adrian]

People die in cars every day (sadly), it's only big news if something bizarre happened. "Cramp in leg" is pretty low grade as excuses go
I haven't gone looking for other coverage, maybe it's out there? If not, then perhaps we shouldn't start worrying about it.

Compare and contrast to the death of Jayne Helliwell. Apologies for the ES content.

[mmmmartin]

http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=54633.0

A different and less condemnatory presentation.

[Martin]

Sorry; but as someone who's been completely wasted after every single one of these I've ridden I think it's time to call a moratorium; if only out of respect

Simon if you are reading this feel free to email

it's just a bike ride FFS, they happen every month

[Wendy]

I don't understand what you mean exactly, Martin. Moratorium on the rides, on this topic, on something else?

[Martin]

stop the FNRTTC for a while; out of respect

although Mr Legge will prolly dismiss it as another yacf tweet 

[Adam]

 

Sadly, cyclists die.  Do you stop cycling when someone gets crushed by a lorry?

Thousands of die in car crashes.  If you drive, would you stop out of respect?

The incident could have happened anyway, regardless of what the person had been doing overnight.

[Martin]

don't make me laugh; I've cycled up the St Albans to Wheathampstead road dozens of times; a perfectly safe and straight road

why are you all defending this? it need not have happened

[gordon taylor]

stop the FNRTTC for a while; out of respect

Eh?

No No No No No No No No No No.

That's a ridiculous suggestion, IMHO.

[Peter]

don't make me laugh; I've cycled up the St Albans to Wheathampstead road dozens of times; a perfectly safe and straight road

why are you all defending this? it need not have happened

Who all is defending what, exactly?

[alexb]

Martin,

Did you read what Simon wrote?

How can he be responsible for any of the people who participate in Friday Night Rides?

It's a ridiculous situation. This is not like a pub landlord profiting from selling alcohol to drunk driver.

[Martin]

you are all saying "hey ho; one of those things"

sorry, no, this was IMO caused by someone driving 1 2 tons of metal whilst in no fit state to do so, the judges seemed to agree

absolutely agree that this is nothing to do with Simon; but a message needs to be sent out

[Wowbagger]

People die all the time in all kinds of remarkable ways. The guy in question made his own decisions, against the suggestions of the organiser, and someone died because he drove badly. None of that is Simon's fault - certainly no more than it was the BMW dealer's fault for selling the guy the car in the first place.

Years ago there was a Tottenham Hotspurs footballer who died on a golf course, struck by lightning.

Should football matches have stopped, as a mark of respect? Or golf games? Or weather forecasting?

[Peter]

Years ago there was a Tottenham Hotspurs footballer who died on a golf course, struck by lightning.

John White, I think?  Also an English international