Author Topic: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.  (Read 20632 times)

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #150 on: 28 November, 2013, 08:10:13 pm »
I despair.

Road safety is the concern of everyone that uses the road system, and improving it requires the cooperation and consent of all road users. In the overall scheme of things, UK road safety is excellent - but it could be much better. Each category of road user (and each individual road user) must accept their responsibility to play a part in the improvement of things for all, and needs to be prepared to take part in (or delegate to others such as CTC, the AA etc) an intelligent discussion about how to achieve that. The discussion and the solution will require compromises from all sides, some greater than others.

For responsible, public-spirited cyclists, the compromises will probably be few, but there will be some. The contention that cyclists should continue to be not subject to speed limits may be one of them. Ok, in the big picture it's a very small thing, but the mindset revealed by the reaction 'speed limits don't apply to me, so sod off' is confrontational and suggests an unwillingness to participate in a collective approach to road safety. Those who espouse this approach will be excluded from the discussion, and will have to accept the solutions arrived at by those who are more open minded and accommodative. If that doesn't suit you, the answer is either 'tough' or start taking a more constructive part in the discussion.

nicknack

  • Hornblower
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #151 on: 28 November, 2013, 08:19:16 pm »
Actually I believe it is possible to be open minded and accommodative and still disagree with you.
There's no vibrations, but wait.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #152 on: 28 November, 2013, 08:26:10 pm »
Ok, that's fair enough! :thumbsup:


What would you do differently from what I suggested?

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #153 on: 28 November, 2013, 11:06:16 pm »
You think that cyclists are saying "speed limits don't apply to me fuck off"

and I think you are saying "restrict cyclists so they are penalised for going over the speed limit, whatever the consequences for cycling and the image of cycling in this country"
It is simpler than it looks.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #154 on: 29 November, 2013, 12:48:02 am »
No. I think you are saying, "I'm a cyclist, speed limits don't apply to me so fuck off". I'm saying that thee is no justification for cyclists exceeding any speed limit, whether or not they're legally bound by them, and that it is in all our interests if we don't adopt such a confrontational attitude.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #155 on: 29 November, 2013, 12:59:19 am »
There are no speed limits for cyclists.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #156 on: 29 November, 2013, 01:10:12 am »
Aren't speed limits a bit of a red herring? Sure, the fact they don't apply to cyclists is a historical accident, but there's been no drive to change that situation, and there's no obvious need to.

Frankly, I'd aspire to be able to break the 30mph limit on a regular basis (only on roads where it didn't apply, natch) - but I can't, except downhill. What's more, even though I'm fairly quick by London commuter standards (let's say I'm at the mythical 85th percentile - I reckon I'm passed by 1 or 2 others for every eight or ten who I overtake), and if there's not much traffic around I can keep up 30ish kph for a reasonable time, it's rare for me to be significantly above that. 32kph, of course, corresponds neatly to the 20mph that still isn't the speed limit on most urban roads.

While clearly it's the mark of a cock to cycle with utter disregard for others or inappropriately for the road conditions, I'd suggest it is fairly few who are able to (let alone who do) do this faster than the current motor vehicle speed limits. Most cockish behaviour is riding like a bellend either in heavy traffic, or on pavements - generally at what I'd estimate to be 12 or 15 mph.

Saying cyclists should obey speed limits when (i) very few exceed them and (ii) most bad behaviour doesn't involve speed in excess of the limit seems to me almost completely irrelevant, and any suggestion that speed limits should be imposed on cyclists seems to me an unnecessary regulatory burden, disproportionate to any problem it could solve.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #157 on: 29 November, 2013, 05:16:44 am »
It's not about going faster than speed limits - most of us can only dream of that. It's about crowing that certain laws don't apply to us, when the pressing need is for a cooperative approach to road safety, not a confrontational one. As 20 mph zones become more widespread, there will be friction as the more competitive cyclists disregard that limit simply because they can. We already have problems getting people on our side because of the irresponsible and anti-social antics of a sizeable minority of commuter and MAMIL cyclists who regularly disregard laws that very much apply to them. But it seems more important to Jaded and others to celebrate those exemptions from speed limits than it is to advocate responsible cycling. Which will get us nowhere.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #158 on: 29 November, 2013, 06:29:56 am »
It's not about going faster than speed limits - most of us can only dream of that. It's about crowing that certain laws don't apply to us, when the pressing need is for a cooperative approach to road safety, not a confrontational one. As 20 mph zones become more widespread, there will be friction as the more competitive cyclists disregard that limit simply because they can. We already have problems getting people on our side because of the irresponsible and anti-social antics of a sizeable minority of commuter and MAMIL cyclists who regularly disregard laws that very much apply to them. But it seems more important to Jaded and others to celebrate those exemptions from speed limits than it is to advocate responsible cycling. Which will get us nowhere.
There is no confrontation about speed limits. Drivers in the real world - except possibly TimC - are not troubled by this issue. (and remember that most of us posting here are drivers).

So when you keep banging on about it, it's not surprising that eventually a cyclist will tell you to fuck off. And with good reason - there ARE no speed limits for cyclists!

Can we at least look at REAL problems, and road-users who are breaking REAL laws?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #159 on: 29 November, 2013, 06:49:53 am »
Whatever

Chris S

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #160 on: 29 November, 2013, 08:18:32 am »
When we descended into Holmfirth from Saddleworth Moor on this year's "Holl & Back 600", we entered the 30mph zone doing close to 50mph (tandems descend really well!). Fboab slowed us down with her brakes, not because we were breaking any law (we weren't), but because going that fast on a pushbike in a residential area, with people walking about, was selfish, and reckless.  More than 30mph was inappropriately fast, and I saw her point (even though I moaned at the time that we were slowing).

Just because it's not illegal, it doesn't necessarily make it OK to go that fast; it's not about what's legal, it's about what's reasonable.

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #161 on: 29 November, 2013, 08:28:35 am »
Just because it's not illegal, it doesn't necessarily make it OK to go that fast; it's not about what's legal, it's about what's reasonable.

Which will is exactly the point TimC is making.

Can we at least look at REAL problems, and road-users who are breaking REAL laws?

What do you suggest for RLJ cyclists?  They can't really get points on a licence can they?  Drivers RLJ need bringing to justice too, but last time I was in London I saw the cars waiting at RL while cyclists went around them and crossed the junction while the lights were red.  I agree that cars will RLJ at the end of a traffic light sequence, but few, in comparison to cyclists, go over once the car in front has stopped, which has already been observed and commented upon on this Forum.

How would you address the problems you conisder real?

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #162 on: 29 November, 2013, 08:31:20 am »
Just because it's not illegal, it doesn't necessarily make it OK to go that fast; it's not about what's legal, it's about what's reasonable.

Which will is exactly the point TimC is making.

Can we at least look at REAL problems, and road-users who are breaking REAL laws?

What do you suggest for RLJ cyclists?  They can't really get points on a licence can they?  Drivers RLJ need bringing to justice too, but last time I was in London I saw the cars waiting at RL while cyclists went around them and crossed the junction while the lights were red.  I agree that cars will RLJ at the end of a traffic light sequence, but few, in comparison to cyclists, go over once the car in front has stopped, which has already been observed and commented upon on this Forum.

How would you address the problems you conisder real?

Haven't you got it? The problem isn't cyclists. There are no problems with cyclists. It's all everyone else's fault, and we should keep telling them that until they get better.

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #163 on: 29 November, 2013, 08:35:21 am »
Just because it's not illegal, it doesn't necessarily make it OK to go that fast; it's not about what's legal, it's about what's reasonable.

Which will is exactly the point TimC is making.

Can we at least look at REAL problems, and road-users who are breaking REAL laws?

What do you suggest for RLJ cyclists?  They can't really get points on a licence can they?  Drivers RLJ need bringing to justice too, but last time I was in London I saw the cars waiting at RL while cyclists went around them and crossed the junction while the lights were red.  I agree that cars will RLJ at the end of a traffic light sequence, but few, in comparison to cyclists, go over once the car in front has stopped, which has already been observed and commented upon on this Forum.

How would you address the problems you conisder real?

Haven't you got it? The problem isn't cyclists. There are no problems with cyclists. It's all everyone else's fault, and we should keep telling them that until they get better.

.... and if there are problems with cyclists they don't count because they can't kill people as efficiently as motor vehicles can.

I think you left that bit out.

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #164 on: 29 November, 2013, 08:42:43 am »
.... and if there are problems with cyclists they don't count because they can't kill people as efficiently as motor vehicles can.

The perceived threat does play a role in how people behave.

I've always noticed how careful drivers are when meeting/passing horse riders on the road.  I've seen the damage a horse can do to a car.  Horses are unpredictable and can do things the rider is unable to control.  Horses really damage cars.  Bikes bounce off cars.  This probably does have a role on the psyche of drivers and more good reason to not worsen the relationships by behaviour that is not responsible.  Again, exemplified by the post of Cris S.

urban_biker

  • " . . .we all ended up here and like lads in the back of a Nova we sort of egged each other on...."
  • Known in the real world as Dave
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #165 on: 29 November, 2013, 08:50:08 am »
Just because it's not illegal, it doesn't necessarily make it OK to go that fast; it's not about what's legal, it's about what's reasonable.

Which will is exactly the point TimC is making.

Can we at least look at REAL problems, and road-users who are breaking REAL laws?

What do you suggest for RLJ cyclists?  They can't really get points on a licence can they?  Drivers RLJ need bringing to justice too, but last time I was in London I saw the cars waiting at RL while cyclists went around them and crossed the junction while the lights were red.  I agree that cars will RLJ at the end of a traffic light sequence, but few, in comparison to cyclists, go over once the car in front has stopped, which has already been observed and commented upon on this Forum.

How would you address the problems you conisder real?

Haven't you got it? The problem isn't cyclists. There are no problems with cyclists. It's all everyone else's fault, and we should keep telling them that until they get better.

There's plenty of problems with some cyclists and plenty with some drivers too. I'm happy to obey the law while cycling including ensuring that I am not cycling inconsiderately or recklessly as the law requires.

Occasionally I am sure that I will perhaps break the speed limit for motor vehicles while riding my bike,  as do most drivers at some point BTW. I'm also sure it won't worry me too much.
Owner of a languishing Langster

red marley

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #166 on: 29 November, 2013, 09:06:53 am »
One of the frustrations with much of the recent discourse on road users' behaviour is that it is eliding two themes that need to treated differently - safety and cooperation.

When it comes to creating a pleasant shared environment, I think we all have an equal responsibility to do our bit, whether we're walking, riding or driving. So I'd agree with TimC's position on that; as cyclists we should ride in a way (including speed) that accommodates others sharing the same space. As the Poynton redesign shows, considerate behaviour is infectious and benefits all.

But when it comes to safety, some road users have a greater responsibility to govern their behaviour than others. And broadly,  the greater the capacity to do harm, the greater the need to manage behaviour to ensure the wellbeing of others. Many recognise that hierarchy of responsibility - despite its faults, the law generally regulates HGV driving more strongly than car driving, cycling more than walking. But calls for "cyclists and motor vehicle drivers are both at fault and need to meet somewhere in the middle" ignores this inherent asymmetry when considering safety.

That is what is potentially damaging about the current police action in London and Bristol and the recent Niceway Code in Edinburgh. Even if a conscious effort is made to be even-handed in stops and FPNs (although evidence suggests otherwise), the fact that this is in direct response to a safety issue fails to recognise where most responsibility lies. It absolves those with the greatest capacity to endanger others from shouldering their fair share of effort in regulating their behaviour.

So it is possible to want cyclists to be more considerate in their behaviour (no RLJing, riding too fast, pavement riding etc.) but also object to unnecessary regulation or targeting of cycle behaviour on the spurious grounds of safety.

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #167 on: 29 November, 2013, 09:16:21 am »
.... and if there are problems with cyclists they don't count because they can't kill people as efficiently as motor vehicles can.

The perceived threat does play a role in how people behave.

I've always noticed how careful drivers are when meeting/passing horse riders on the road.  I've seen the damage a horse can do to a car.  Horses are unpredictable and can do things the rider is unable to control.  Horses really damage cars.  Bikes bounce off cars.  This probably does have a role on the psyche of drivers and more good reason to not worsen the relationships by behaviour that is not responsible.  Again, exemplified by the post of Cris S.

Why don't you visit me one day? We have a riding school down one end of the road, and Manor Park at the other (an area habituated with people whose only contact with a horse is across the counter in Macdonalds). You really don't see any consideration here.

I think you may be referring to an area of the country where it is more usual for little Kimberley or Tristram to be sat on a horse from a young age by a doting parent. That gives them the knowledge, understanding and sympathy. Take that away and you get what happens here, which is zero consideration for the unpredictability of an equine mount. I actually don't think there's that much difference with cycling, which is why I think that the single most important thing is for more people to cycle, which leads to my grudging support for those organisations advocating segregation, even though I don't support segregation. 

Get more people onto bikes as a mode of transport and it not just the cyclists themselves that are affected but those that they are near and dear to, those that they talk to. There is a tipping point where cycling is no longer seen as a slightly odd minority with a suicide wish, but as a standard mode of transport.

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #168 on: 29 November, 2013, 09:28:51 am »
/snip/
Get more people onto bikes as a mode of transport and it not just the cyclists themselves that are affected but those that they are near and dear to, those that they talk to. There is a tipping point where cycling is no longer seen as a slightly odd minority with a suicide wish, but as a standard mode of transport.

And we appear to be accelerating to that point, which is good.
Rust never sleeps

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #169 on: 29 November, 2013, 10:43:11 am »
Just because it's not illegal, it doesn't necessarily make it OK to go that fast; it's not about what's legal, it's about what's reasonable.

Which will is exactly the point TimC is making.

Can we at least look at REAL problems, and road-users who are breaking REAL laws?

What do you suggest for RLJ cyclists?  They can't really get points on a licence can they?  Drivers RLJ need bringing to justice too, but last time I was in London I saw the cars waiting at RL while cyclists went around them and crossed the junction while the lights were red.  I agree that cars will RLJ at the end of a traffic light sequence, but few, in comparison to cyclists, go over once the car in front has stopped, which has already been observed and commented upon on this Forum.

How would you address the problems you conisder real?

Haven't you got it? The problem isn't cyclists. There are no problems with cyclists. It's all everyone else's fault, and we should keep telling them that until they get better.

There's plenty of problems with some cyclists and plenty with some drivers too. I'm happy to obey the law while cycling including ensuring that I am not cycling inconsiderately or recklessly as the law requires.

Occasionally I am sure that I will perhaps break the speed limit for motor vehicles while riding my bike,  as do most drivers at some point BTW. I'm also sure it won't worry me too much.

And that's fine. I really don't have a problem with that. What gets me is the attitude displayed above that because speed limits (and drink related laws) don't apply to cyclists, we are absolved in some way from acting responsibly because, after all, none of it's our fault!

I know cyclists don't (generally) kill people, but we certainly do piss people off when we act as though rules are for others and not for us. We are the vulnerable minority on the roads, and if we want the majority who can hurt us to take care around us, we have to show that we are worthy of that care. Too many people on bikes seem only to want to show that they don't care for their own or others' safety, and it's very difficult to convince drivers that they should give a shit when faced with such anarchy. It's not good enough to say, 'cyclists don't hurt anyone therefore they don't need to play by the rules'.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #170 on: 29 November, 2013, 10:51:51 am »
Drink laws do apply to cyclists, just different ones from motorists.
Not sure where you've got the bit about being absolved from acting responsibly from, can't see anyone has said that.
It is simpler than it looks.

Phil W

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #171 on: 29 November, 2013, 01:16:03 pm »
Too many people on bikes seem only to want to show that they don't care for their own or others' safety


There is a very small minority, most in London from everything I've read, who regularly weave between cars, ride at full pelt with pedestrian's crossing, and go through Red Lights.  There is an equal if not greater number of motorists who also jump red lights, which includes stopping in the advance boxes for cycles.

From personal observation , outside of London RLJ's are a very rare occurence indeed, both for bikes and cars.  Daily on my commute I do see  people riding bikes on the pavement. They are often travelling slowly, in the evening a few of them have poor or no lights.  They are courteous to pedestrians.  Other than breaking the law, they are not causing a real problem to pedestrians. There is no real "those cyclists are knobs" sentiment from those driving, as we've all got used to bikes on pavement due to the rise of shared cycle / pedestian paths.

From a personal point of view. I think demonstrating a courtesous, well considered representation of how a person in a car or on a bike should behave; gives a good impression to those passing on their bikes or in their cars, and hopefully means they will be better intentioned when they next encounter another car or cyclist on the road, which leads to a safer encounters.

Quote
and it's very difficult to convince drivers that they should give a shit when faced with such anarchy. It's not good enough to say, 'cyclists don't hurt anyone therefore they don't need to play by the rules'.

It is not good enough to blame your behaviour on that of others, and all car drivers have a resposibility to give a shit, else they should not be licensed to be on the road.  It should not be difficult to convince a driver a motor vehicle to behave responsibily, courteously and safely.  In fact you shouldn't need convincing, it's bloody obvious you should. I don't base my behaviour on that of the man down the road who beats his wife.

You assume cyclists are one group when they are not, they are a disparate mix of people who choose to ride a bike to get around, get to work, for leisure etc. It is a fallacy to assume that the behaviour of a person in London has any connection with me because of his mode of transport. It no good ranting on about what "cyclists" must do. I am only responsible for my own behavior not of that reckless kid in London.  So by all means expound what you believe gives a good account of yourself, but do not expect that to make one bit of difference about what that kid does in London. we can only lead by example.

An example of this same fallacy might to see a man rob a bank with a getaway car. Over the years I hear about many more bank robbies and they always have a get away car. I make the false assumption (fallacy) that all car drivers are bank robbers.  In any subsequent argument I then say, well you should stop robbing banks then, else I can't respect you. Of course, the person I'm speaking to probably doesn't rob banks, but already I have his or her back up.  So to say cyclists should do this or motorists should do this is just falling into the same fallacies. What we can ask is; what is an unsafe behaviour or attitude and what influences or directs that behavior? One we understand and agree the key underlying drivers (no pun intended) of the issues, we are in a better place to make a real difference.

Speeding

You've banged on about cyclists exceeding speed limit when they do not.  You wonder why some might have told you to go procreate with yourself?  You made no effort to understand for how long this exceeding the limit takes place, under what circumstances, and why did the poster consider it safe?  You have a dogmatic belief that when a 30 mph limit may be imposed on motor vehicles for safety reasons; it is also not safe for a person on a bike to exceed that limit.  When others point out that that is not the case, you fall into dogma, without trying to explore the reasons why they think that.

By all means have a discussion but let's not fall back on dogma. A healthy debate is good, as long as it is that, healthy.


Empathy

There's a lot to be said for cycle, drive, or ride a mile in my shoes.  The more modes of transport you experience from a first person perspective the more empathy you have to those who choose to use those alternate form in their everyday.  A person who cycles and drives behaves better towards both groups.  A person who has a relative who horse rides (or indeed rides themselves) is better behaved around horses whether in a car or on a bike.  If you sit in the cab of a HGV you better appreciate the challenges they face and are better accomodating.

How we get more people to experience different modes of transport needs to thought about. I believe this could be one of the biggest single things we could do to bring about change for the better.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #172 on: 29 November, 2013, 01:59:13 pm »
Just because it's not illegal, it doesn't necessarily make it OK to go that fast; it's not about what's legal, it's about what's reasonable.

^^^^
This.