Author Topic: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.  (Read 20579 times)

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #50 on: 25 November, 2013, 10:12:50 am »
Like drivers who drive all the way around mini-roundabouts....it's just paint, they are symbolic, drive across them.
I used to think that, but the wording in the HC has changed to something much stronger, the thrust now is that you should treat the white paint as though it was a real something, unless it is impracticable to do so.

And, FWIW, I would far rather a driver takes their vehicle across the unbroken white line when overtaking me than not, assuming of course it is clear the other way.
Rust never sleeps

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #51 on: 25 November, 2013, 10:15:12 am »
Ooooo. It's even stronger than I remember.

HC section here.
Quote
188
Mini-roundabouts. Approach these in the same way as normal roundabouts. All vehicles MUST pass round the central markings except large vehicles which are physically incapable of doing so. Remember, there is less space to manoeuvre and less time to signal. Avoid making U-turns at mini-roundabouts. Beware of others doing this.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10(1) & 16(1)
Rust never sleeps

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #52 on: 25 November, 2013, 10:20:46 am »
Alternatively, we could all insist the letter of the law is obeyed in all aspects, including when we cycle, so: pedal reflectors?  always come to a complete stop at Stop Lines?  Hmm, I'm guilty as charged m'Lord and I freely admit it (also chuffed to bits at setting-off display to show I was doing 38mph in a 30mph zone, but is was downhill at night with no other person or car around).  Only hope all those other cyclists I have had the pleasure cycling with can also freely admit their breaking of the letter of the law.
I'm interested to know which law you were breaking going at 38mph.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #53 on: 25 November, 2013, 10:30:06 am »
I'm interested to know which law you were breaking going at 38mph.

S35 of the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 (as amended by the Criminal Justice Act 1948 (c. 58), s. 1(2)) is as follows: “35. Drivers of carriages injuring persons by furious driving Whosoever, having the charge of any carriage or vehicle, shall by wanton or furious driving or racing, or other wilful misconduct, or by wilful neglect, do or cause to be done any bodily harm to any person whatsoever, shall be guilty of a misdemeanour, and being convicted thereof shall be liable, at the discretion of the court, to be imprisoned for any term not exceeding two years.”

red marley

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #54 on: 25 November, 2013, 10:43:43 am »
Over on the other thread you say you are appalled at the antics of other cyclists. Here you are saying you have wilfully caused bodily harm to others through furious riding of your bike. Or perhaps I've got it wrong and you weren't breaking the law after all.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #55 on: 25 November, 2013, 10:51:49 am »
Yes, tell us more about the person that you hit at 38mph.
It is simpler than it looks.

Toady

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #56 on: 25 November, 2013, 10:52:21 am »
I was driving through some Surrey lanes in the dark last night, and found myself stuck behind a bloody cyclist for a few hundred metres, until I found a safe place to overtake.  He was well lit, reflectives, but no pedal reflectors.  All the same I was Not Happy.  He was doing a constant 25mph up a gentle incline, and didn't seem to be putting any effort in.  Was he deliberately trying to make me feel inadequate?  Bastard.

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #57 on: 25 November, 2013, 10:54:58 am »
Over on the other thread you say you are appalled at the antics of other cyclists. Here you are saying you have wilfully caused bodily harm to others through furious riding of your bike. Or perhaps I've got it wrong and you weren't breaking the law after all.

I did not hit anyone so I did not wilfully cause bodily harm to others.

Point I was making is that many people who cycle break the letter of the law (pedal reflectors, rear reflector, stop lines) and yet we expect motorists to obey the letter of the law which continued on from the pragmatic stance by motorists overtaking a cycle, doing say 13.5mph, that involves crossing solid white line, which according to the letter of the law is breaking the law.  I have no problems with this as I consider it a pragmatic way to proceed.  Others do not agree and would suggest that motorists should obey the letter of the law, in which case I suggest cyclists do likewise.  But I am aware that cyclists (including those who I have had the pleasure to ride with on audax events) do not always obey the letter of the law.

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #58 on: 25 November, 2013, 10:58:13 am »
Yes, tell us more about the person that you hit at 38mph.

Did not hit anyone.

Now I have answered your question, how about answering mine.

Who are those people that want to eradicate cycling?

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #59 on: 25 November, 2013, 11:05:02 am »
So when you were cycling at 38 you wee rent breaking any law. Thanks for clearing that up.

As for your question, it is so laughable that it requires no answer.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #60 on: 25 November, 2013, 11:07:34 am »
I was driving through some Surrey lanes in the dark last night, and found myself stuck behind a bloody cyclist for a few hundred metres, until I found a safe place to overtake.  He was well lit, reflectives, but no pedal reflectors.  All the same I was Not Happy.  He was doing a constant 25mph up a gentle incline, and didn't seem to be putting any effort in.  Was he deliberately trying to make me feel inadequate?  Bastard.
POTD material that.
Rust never sleeps

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #61 on: 25 November, 2013, 11:17:05 am »
So when you were cycling at 38 you wee rent breaking any law. Thanks for clearing that up.

As for your question, it is so laughable that it requires no answer.

Girls, girls, please.

Veloman was going over 30 mph so he was breaking the law. Jaded believes anyone wearing a helmet wants to stop him cycling (simplified for the sake of brevity)

Settled?

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #62 on: 25 November, 2013, 11:38:39 am »
What I never thought was I would read comments on this forum from cyclists who are advocating it is okay for motorists to break road laws and put cyclists in danger.

Did you feel endangered?  In reality were you in danger?.


No, but my wife felt endangers and yes we were in danger. Laws are not there to be broken contrary to the opinion of yourself and others. I have held a full driving licence for a car for 53 years and for a motorbike for 54 years. In that time I have never had a motoring conviction or any conviction for that matter. There are some on this forum who can testify that I do not break road laws when driving or cycling and expect others to do the same.
Most people tip-toe through life hoping the make it safely to death.
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Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #63 on: 25 November, 2013, 11:44:52 am »
So when you were cycling at 38 you wee rent breaking any law. Thanks for clearing that up.

As for your question, it is so laughable that it requires no answer.

Girls, girls, please.

Veloman was going over 30 mph so he was breaking the law. Jaded believes anyone wearing a helmet wants to stop him cycling (simplified for the sake of brevity)

Settled?
No, not really.

Veloman was going over 30 mph so he wasn't breaking the law. Ham believes that Jaded believes that anyone wearing a helmet wants to stop him cycling.

I think that's a better summary.

The DfT has forecast that cycling levels will fall from 2015. So there's some cycling eradicated in Govt transport plans.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #64 on: 25 November, 2013, 11:48:49 am »
No, but my wife felt endangers and yes we were in danger. Laws are not there to be broken contrary to the opinion of yourself and others. I have held a full driving licence for a car for 53 years and for a motorbike for 54 years. In that time I have never had a motoring conviction or any conviction for that matter. There are some on this forum who can testify that I do not break road laws when driving or cycling and expect others to do the same.

Fair enough.  You must be the only cyclist I have come across to have stopped at every Stop Line in the land whenever they have ever cycled, and for that you should be congratulated.

I agree that laws are not there to be broken, but as I stated earlier, many cyclists break the law by not having pedal reflectors, rear reflectors or stop at Stop Lines.  I assume you expect all cyclists to have pedal reflectors and rear reflectors when riding at night and to stop at all Stop Lines.  I think you will be disappointed by the fact that not all cyclists do obey the letter of the law.

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #65 on: 25 November, 2013, 11:51:18 am »
No, not really.

Veloman was going over 30 mph so he wasn't breaking the law. Ham believes that Jaded believes that anyone wearing a helmet wants to stop him cycling.

I think that's a better summary.

I was doing 38mph in a 30mph zone

Why do you think that speed limits don't apply to bikes? Quite happy with the second part of your correction, I suspect the difference is more important to you than an external observer.

urban_biker

  • " . . .we all ended up here and like lads in the back of a Nova we sort of egged each other on...."
  • Known in the real world as Dave
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #66 on: 25 November, 2013, 11:55:22 am »
Quote
Section 89(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act says;

"A person who drives a motor vehicle on a road at a speed exceeding a limit imposed by or under any enactment to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence"

Speed limits apply to motor vehicles only. Although I suspect even most police officers aren't aware of that.
Owner of a languishing Langster

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #67 on: 25 November, 2013, 11:57:13 am »
Quote
69
You MUST obey all traffic signs and traffic light signals.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD reg 10(1)

And the traffic signs say

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #68 on: 25 November, 2013, 12:01:42 pm »
The highway code is not law. It often summarises law. If you read the referred to acts you will discover that legislation for speed limits does indeed only apply to motor vehicles. So you cannot be done for speeding on horseback [1] though there are other reasons why travelling at speed could be prosecuted.

[1] unless riding a horse in a trailer being pulled by a motor vehicle.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #69 on: 25 November, 2013, 12:13:23 pm »
Quote
69
You MUST obey all traffic signs and traffic light signals.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD reg 10(1)

And the traffic signs say

That traffic sign says "Number 30 in a red circle". You need to translate that before you can obey it. The translation being something like "The number in the red circle shows the speed limit for motor vehicles in mph on this stretch of road"
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

HTFB

  • The Monkey and the Plywood Violin
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #70 on: 25 November, 2013, 12:25:52 pm »
What is the difference in distance that you need to be able to see clearly between overtaking someone at 10 mph and overtaking the same person going at 15 mph?
That's a how long is a piece of string question. Depends entirely on how fast the car can accelerate. Its going to be a completely different answer for a Nissan Micra and a Porche 911.
Quite a lot of the highway rules have been the same for decades which is interesting given that the average family car now accelerates faster, has a higher top speed, handles better and brakes quicker than most sports cars at the time the rules were formulated. You could argue that the 10mph rules should be changed to 15mph. The counter argument is that although the cars are much better traffic is heavier so its more likely that something is coming the other way much more rapidly than it would have done in the past.
According to my sums, the performance of your car makes surprisingly little difference. Of course 0-60 times aren't really relevant here, because we're in a speed range where all ordinary cars show more or less constant acceleration. A quick google for "car acceleration curve" finds graphs suggesting that a Ferrari can accelerate at about 10mph / s, or 4.4ms-2; a 1970 Ford Capri at 5mph/s, or 2.2ms-2.

The manoeuvre needs to get you from 2s behind the cyclist, 9m at 10mph, (13.5m at 15mph) to 2s in front (ditto, as the bike speed is constant), and let's add 5m for the length of the bike and of your car. So a total of 23m (32m) relative to the bike.

You're starting the manoeuvre at the speed of the bicycle, so in its frame for the Ferrari we take s = 23 (32) u=0, a = 4.4, and calculate
  • s = ut + 1/2 a t2
  • t = 3.2 s (3.8 s)
For the Capri we get t = 4.6s (5.4s). Twice the performance of the car gets you only 30% less time, because of the square root. The faster bike costs the Capri 0.8s; the Ferrari 0.6s.

Now let's use s =ut + 1/2a t^2 in the frame of an oncoming vehicle doing 60, i.e. 26.4 ms-1. So now u = 30.8 (33), t = 3.2(3.8). We conclude that for the Ferrari, with a = 4.4, s = 121m (157m). For the Capri, a = 2.2, s = 165m (210m)

So your instinct is right: using a Ferrari to overtake a 15mph cyclist you need to see a clear road for a distance about the same as, or slightly than, when using a Capri for a 10mph one. Twice the acceleration saves you about 25% of the distance.

But this model is grossly oversimplified. I would prefer to have completed it with 2s to spare before meeting that oncoming lorry. This starts to reduce the Ferrari's advantage, unless you can stop accelerating very accurately. What's more, the time you take to clear the opposite lane is determined by how fast you are happy to move laterally across the road, which is at best constant no matter how fast your car lengthwise along it---in reality I think it diminishes with speed, as the consequences of misjudging your steering become more severe. By hypothesis we're on a twisty road, too. Allow another 2s for this and the Ferrari's advantage has been almost completely eliminated, down to 11m (15m).

(And he's driving like a cunt, too. Suddenly opening up next to a cyclist and gunning for the speed limit: yes, that's friendly.)
Not especially helpful or mature

mattc

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Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #71 on: 25 November, 2013, 04:28:19 pm »
Alternatively, we could all insist the letter of the law is obeyed in all aspects, including when we cycle, so: pedal reflectors?  always come to a complete stop at Stop Lines?  Hmm, I'm guilty as charged m'Lord and I freely admit it (also chuffed to bits at setting-off display to show I was doing 38mph in a 30mph zone, but is was downhill at night with no other person or car around).  Only hope all those other cyclists I have had the pleasure cycling with can also freely admit their breaking of the letter of the law.
I'm interested to know which law you were breaking going at 38mph.
The obvious conclusion is  riding without the required reflectors. (as VM admits to). It can't be speeding, cos he was on a bike.

Simples! No?

( Now someone tell me how this has been blown into a massive ball of rhetoric and spite...  ::-) )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #72 on: 25 November, 2013, 04:33:58 pm »
erm, subsequent posts showed that he, and he wasn't alone, thought that 38 on a bike was illegal.
It is simpler than it looks.

Phil W


mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: Cyclists are a nuisance -- from our local rag.
« Reply #74 on: 25 November, 2013, 07:47:01 pm »
erm, subsequent posts showed that he, and he wasn't alone, thought that 38 on a bike was illegal.

So what? How on earth is this a sin worth having an argument about?!?

You're not the only one - everyone here seems to be desperate to slag someone off, gain some pathetic moral high ground, and generally prove that THEIR view of the law is best.

(In other words - business as usual  ;D )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles