Yet Another Cycling Forum

Off Topic => The Pub => The Sporting Life => Topic started by: fd3 on 18 April, 2021, 10:43:53 pm

Title: European Super League
Post by: fd3 on 18 April, 2021, 10:43:53 pm
No, not the world famous RL competition, but a plan for the top European 11-a-side teams to split off and form a closed shop competition.
Much rage:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56794673
What I don't get is
 - why clubs shouldn't be allowed to choose to move to a different league if they want to, why should they be legally prevented?
 - how can UEFA say they will stop players playing for a national team?  How can they say that player X plays in the wrong league and therefore can't play for their country?
 - why is everyone so piss-scared of a league with no Promotion/Relegation?  P/R is an alien concept in many countries (Oz/US) and doesn't work for many sports in this country (Rugby of either code).
 - why would the ESL clubs want to do this?  Sure, it's stupid for the top 6 sides in the UK to play against a swathe of teams who are far below their level, but to change to play only against teams that can beat them?  Surely Manchester (City/United) are better off doing well in their domestic comp and medium in the champions league than to do medium/poorly in the ESL.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Peter on 18 April, 2021, 11:08:55 pm
Because, at the moment, they run/own football and its participants (don't forget it's the UEFA Champions League, the UEFA World Cup and so on).  It's a not very well disguised form of slavery known as restriction of trade.  I've realised I don't actually care very much, any more.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Pingu on 18 April, 2021, 11:12:46 pm
Money.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Mr Larrington on 19 April, 2021, 01:11:48 am
Because, at the moment, they run/own football and its participants (don't forget it's the UEFA Champions League, the UEFA World Cup and so on).  It's a not very well disguised form of slavery known as restriction of trade.  I've realised I don't actually care very much, any more.

Up to a point, Lord Copper.  The World Cup is FIFA's, er, ball-game.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: FifeingEejit on 19 April, 2021, 02:59:21 am
Association football is FIFA and IFABs ball game.

I'm sure there was a footballer playing in Scotland a few years back who got a ban for playing in a GAA football match.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out, must remember that the Europa League started out as a non UEFA competition called the inter-City fairs Cup for the purpose of gambling.

It's more likely a power play for further bias in the champions league structure than something they expect to come to fruition.

If it back fires on them they need to somehow find players willing to never play FIFA sanctioned football ever again, match officials  etc.

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Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: citoyen on 19 April, 2021, 06:29:13 am
It's more likely a power play for further bias in the champions league structure than something they expect to come to fruition.

This.

It’s also a reaction to UEFA’s plans to expand the champions league format to increase the number of games - these teams want fewer games and more money for playing them, as well as more control over their media rights.

UEFA and FIFA are massively corrupt organisations. As a friend observed elsewhere, it takes some doing to cede the moral high ground to them.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Jaded on 19 April, 2021, 06:32:39 am
It further enhances the gap between the Haves and the Have-nots. The rich get richer and the others don't.

Watching your ordinary team in Europe used to be quite something. Now you'll be able to not watch them. Or watch them in a minor competition (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56725449).
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: rogerzilla on 19 April, 2021, 07:09:07 am
It's like the English Premier League - that was also a breakaway in the search for more money, which has ruined the wider game.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: De Sisti on 19 April, 2021, 07:44:39 am
GAA?

Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 April, 2021, 08:23:09 am
Gaelic Athletic Association.

My probably inaccurate feeling is that it will end up with a deal giving a larger percentage of TV and other money to the "big 12", with the threat of the ESL hanging there in the background to be triggered again whenever they want a larger slice.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 April, 2021, 08:27:33 am
But if it does go ahead, it will give the smaller (or less big) clubs in those national leagues chances they haven't had for a few decades. Leicester winning the league might not seem like a fluke anymore, or Aston Villa the Champions League. And if FIFA bans players who take part in it, that effect might be felt at international level.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Jaded on 19 April, 2021, 08:32:27 am
I read that the teams will carry on in their own leagues.

It's the Champions League competition that will suffer.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: T42 on 19 April, 2021, 08:34:30 am
The first 4 stories on France Info's web site were about this shit. Jesus wept.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 April, 2021, 08:39:54 am
I read that the teams will carry on in their own leagues.

It's the Champions League competition that will suffer.
I read that they've said they want to carry on in domestic leagues and CL, but UEFA is saying no. Given they also claim pressure on schedules as a factor in wanting this new league, it doesn't quite add up.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 April, 2021, 08:40:16 am
The first 4 stories on France Info's web site were about this shit. Jesus wept.
Just wait till PSG sign up!
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: mcshroom on 19 April, 2021, 08:41:20 am
No, not the world famous RL competition, but a plan for the top European 11-a-side teams to split off and form a closed shop competition.
Much rage:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56794673
What I don't get is
 - why clubs shouldn't be allowed to choose to move to a different league if they want to, why should they be legally prevented?
 - how can UEFA say they will stop players playing for a national team?  How can they say that player X plays in the wrong league and therefore can't play for their country?
It's a bit like when Packer's cricket teams split off. UEFA/FIFA couldn't stop anyone playing in another league, but as the natinal sides play in FIFA/UEFA competitions, then those bodies are entitled to state the entry criteria for their competitions.
Quote
- why is everyone so piss-scared of a league with no Promotion/Relegation?  P/R is an alien concept in many countries (Oz/US) and doesn't work for many sports in this country (Rugby of either code).

This is plainly false for Rugby Union. The top two sides this season were Bristol and Exeter. Both teams that have been promoted in recent years. Newcastle and Worcester are other teams that have come up from lower divisions, so a third of the Premiership have been promoted into it.

This is despite the rules being set up in such a way as to try and stop the promoted teams doing well. I remember when my team (Rotherham) got promoted, we had to meet a range of ground criteria that existing clubs such as Bath didn't have to, got less TV money for playing in the Premiership than Harlequins got for playing in National One that year, and had to wait well after the season finished before we were confirmed as promoted, so after most player transfers had occurred. As it was, we got smashed for a season and then went down, which wasn't great, but at least we have played Premiership Rugby.

Removing promotion and relegation just entrenches the haves and have-nots in a sport. In Rugby Union, that would have been that the whole of the North of England was represented by Sale, for example. In RL, it would have also cemented teams with a rich History such as Halifax and Widnes out of the Super League, and made it pretty much impossible for the sport to spread out of a narrow band of England based mainly around the M62.

There may be a case if you went to regional teams like the Irish in the Pro 14, but just using existing big clubs entrenched privilege

Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 April, 2021, 08:46:19 am
Removing promotion and relegation just entrenches the haves and have-nots in a sport.
This. Which raises an interesting possibility if ESL goes ahead and its members remain in their domestic leagues. It will look a bit odd if one or more of them slips out of the top group, let alone top league, nationally, but if we look at some of the members, such as Liverpool or Chelsea, history suggests this is quite likely.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: FifeingEejit on 19 April, 2021, 08:49:12 am
It's like the English Premier League - that was also a breakaway in the search for more money, which has ruined the wider game.
The difference with the Premier league was they had the FA on side.



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Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 19 April, 2021, 09:39:02 am
It's like the English Premier League - that was also a breakaway in the search for more money, which has ruined the wider game.
The difference with the Premier league was they had the FA on side.
Yes, because the FA were at war with The Football League. The FA ran the FA Cup and the England team, and the Football League ran the rest (which is where the money was). So the Premier League came up, and the FA stuck the boot into the Football League and took what they viewed as their rightful place at the top of the game in control of all the money.

For the Premier League 6, it's all about ensuring a place in the Champions League, and the money that comes with it. The "race for the top 4" is great for the Premier League, but for the owners, not knowing how much income to expect the next year (+/- £100m) is a huge problem. You could argue that they need to cut their cloth accordingly, and treat the CL money as "bonus" money, but if you work on that basis you can't compete with the top teams in Europe who have their Champions League places sewn up.
For the others, it's about controlling the cash that the Champions League generates - currently how much money you get depends on the size of your TV deal, so Premier League clubs often get more CL  money than teams that go further in the competition.
For all of them, it's a chance to stick 2 fingers up at FIFA/UEFA, who they regard as incompetent and corrupt.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: T42 on 19 April, 2021, 10:34:47 am
The first 4 stories on France Info's web site were about this shit. Jesus wept.
Just wait till PSG sign up!

Aye, the plebs will really get excited then.  I'll try to ignore them.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: fd3 on 19 April, 2021, 10:43:02 am
Quote
- why is everyone so piss-scared of a league with no Promotion/Relegation?  P/R is an alien concept in many countries (Oz/US) and doesn't work for many sports in this country (Rugby of either code).

This is plainly false for Rugby Union. ... I remember when my team (Rotherham) got promoted, we had to meet a range of ground criteria that existing clubs such as Bath didn't have to, got less TV money for playing in the Premiership than Harlequins got for playing in National One that year, and had to wait well after the season finished before we were confirmed as promoted, so after most player transfers had occurred. As it was, we got smashed for a season and then went down, which wasn't great, but at least we have played Premiership Rugby.

Removing promotion and relegation just entrenches the haves and have-nots in a sport. In Rugby Union, that would have been that the whole of the North of England was represented by Sale, for example. In RL, it would have also cemented teams with a rich History such as Halifax and Widnes out of the Super League, and made it pretty much impossible for the sport to spread out of a narrow band of England based mainly around the M62.

I would say your examples of successful promotion in RU is the exception rather than the rule and is due to moneybags buying the team promotion, not plucky underdogs winning against the odds.  Your example of Rotheram is more of the norm and it's worse in RL - I remember the last time Leigh got promoted I don't think they won a match all year.
I don't see how P/R has done a great job of growing RL outside of the heartlands, in fact Catalans would not be in the top tier if P/R rules had applied to them and P/R lost us London.

There's no reason why you can't have franchised P/R based on a three year aggregate of scores and financial packages/support.  That's what they do in the NRL and they did this in the SL for a bit.  It means that Rotheram don't have to play the year with the scraps of talent left over and then get relegated, they can have a three year plan towards gaining promotion.

I also think that franchised P/R is better for the lower level competition, because the winners of that comp are clearly winning at the highest level available.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: fd3 on 19 April, 2021, 10:55:32 am
Quote
The European Super League will have 20 participating clubs - 15 founding ones with five other clubs qualifying each season.

The clubs will play in a new midweek competition with teams continuing to compete in their respective national leagues, the ESL was keen to stress.

So, it's a different take on the Champion's league basically?
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Jaded on 19 April, 2021, 10:57:09 am
Sounds like Mourinho has taken a stand against the ESL. And got sacked.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56799400
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: matthew on 19 April, 2021, 11:00:42 am
Yes there are sporting leagues that operate without promotion and relegation, however they do operate strict salary caps for the whole clubs wage bill and they operate a draft style recruitment system where the worst teams get to pick the best of the new prospects so they improve more.

Firstly I can't see these teams operating to a salary cap, and if they do it will not be anywhere near low enough to allow the other teams in their national league to compete against them. Secondly how do you run a draft system for 12 clubs in a global sport where they are competing in their national leagues? It's not like giving the twelfth of these at the end of the season first pick is possible unless junior players are going to have release clauses from whichever clubs they are playing for to allow them to 'declare' for the draft, at which point national leagues are little more than college football.

If they want to go ahead with their midweek league then I suspect the clubs should be punished with immediate points reductions, shall we say 10 points for each unsanctioned game played? Also how are they going to fit these extra games into the calendar given all the concerns about player burn out and the need for a winter break to allow the national sides to be better in summer tournaments?
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Mr Larrington on 19 April, 2021, 11:05:29 am
Sounds like Mourinho has taken a stand against the ESL. And got sacked.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56799400

Quote
Spurs face Manchester City in the Carabao Cup final on Sunday.

In the what?  When I was a small Mr Larrington a carabao was a water buffalo ???

(Googles)

Ah.  Apparently it’s what the League Cup is called these days.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Jaded on 19 April, 2021, 11:07:48 am
It's the Milk Cup.  ;)
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 April, 2021, 11:18:48 am
Sounds like Mourinho has taken a stand against the ESL. And got sacked.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56799400

Quote
Spurs face Manchester City in the Carabao Cup final on Sunday.

In the what?  When I was a small Mr Larrington a carabao was a water buffalo ???

(Googles)

Ah.  Apparently it’s what the League Cup is called these days.
Quote
The carabao is a domestic swamp-type water buffalo native to the Philippines. Despite the popular notion that this bovine has been declared the national animal of the Philippines, the National Commission for Culture and the Arts of the Philippines has stated that this has no basis in Philippine law.
Well that's more interesting than being named after an "energy drink".
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: rogerzilla on 19 April, 2021, 11:27:07 am
It's an opportunity to see the Premiership "development teams" in action.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: fd3 on 19 April, 2021, 11:31:29 am
Sounds like Mourinho has taken a stand against the ESL. And got sacked.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56799400
I think he actually got sacked for not being very good.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: The Family Cyclist on 19 April, 2021, 11:42:41 am
Sounds like Mourinho has taken a stand against the ESL. And got sacked.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56799400
I think he actually got sacked for not being very good.

I think maybe he realised he was likely to sacked and has used the super duper league thing as an opportunity to leave with a moral victory
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 19 April, 2021, 11:48:31 am
Firstly I can't see these teams operating to a salary cap, and if they do it will not be anywhere near low enough to allow the other teams in their national league to compete against them. Secondly how do you run a draft system for 12 clubs in a global sport where they are competing in their national leagues? It's not like giving the twelfth of these at the end of the season first pick is possible unless junior players are going to have release clauses from whichever clubs they are playing for to allow them to 'declare' for the draft, at which point national leagues are little more than college football.

If they want to go ahead with their midweek league then I suspect the clubs should be punished with immediate points reductions, shall we say 10 points for each unsanctioned game played? Also how are they going to fit these extra games into the calendar given all the concerns about player burn out and the need for a winter break to allow the national sides to be better in summer tournaments?
There's no plan for a draft.  There is a plan for a "spending framework", which is presumably a salary cap by another name.
The new league plans are 18 guaranteed group games, plus 5 knockout games to get to the final. The Champions League right now is 6 group games plus 7 knockout games, and the Europa League is 6 group games plus 9 knockout games (excluding qualifiers). So it's an extra 10 games over the current CL. The same statement is on every club's website (which includes quoting a Glazer on the LFC website with no comment from Henry): https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/431801-leading-european-football-clubs-announce-new-super-league-competition

It's easy to say that these clubs should be punished and given points penalties or be relegated. However, they have a huge amount of power - if you throw these 6 clubs out of the PL, you have to tear up the broadcast deals, and everyone goes bust, from the FA all the way down to the National League.

It's strange to see that Mourinho got sacked the week before the league cup final. I thought they would have waited until they were mathematically out of the top 4 race (though maybe that doesn't matter now!)
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: rogerzilla on 19 April, 2021, 11:48:49 am
Amd a few million quid in compensation for being crap.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 19 April, 2021, 12:06:31 pm
The first 4 stories on France Info's web site were about this shit. Jesus wept.

Not a surprise to see the BBC doing the same, but the Guardian is also at it.

I've tried but I still can't grasp the significance of this super league.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Beardy on 19 April, 2021, 12:14:31 pm
It’s capitalism in action. If the new super league can convince the television bean counters that they are who everyone* wants to watch, they get the TV money and no one else gets a look in. Those on the gravy train at FIFA don’t want completion for the bribes incentives and so threaten the players with not playing for their national teams.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 April, 2021, 12:17:34 pm
No, not the world famous RL competition,
Fanciful pronouncement: It's from a commercial disagreement such as this that rugby league, a whole new form of football, was formed. Give it time, an independent structure, player disagreements (odd perhaps that we've heard from clubs, their fans, administrators, pundits, but not players), and several tens of billion of dollars (or euros) and who knows?
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: PeteB99 on 19 April, 2021, 12:25:29 pm
Well Johnson has pledged to stop it which means it's almost certain to go ahead, probably with Dido Harding in charge.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: John Stonebridge on 19 April, 2021, 12:58:25 pm
I cant see it happening in anything like the "highly closed shop" format that's been mooted with 12 permanent members and a few others scrapping for places at the table.       

What's more likely to end up with the reformed Champions League delivering an even greater slice of the pie to those countries/clubs who already get the biggest share. 

This is effectively UEFAs Van der Saar proposal - where a team like Liverpool could finish outside the top 4 but could still leapfrog a team like West Ham and take a place in the competition based on <reasons> rather than final league placings.  This proposal also increased the number of fixtures significantly, which appeared likely to sound the death knell for the League Cup in England (unless the Champions League teams are given a bye into the latter stages or can field U23 teams or suchlike at least in the early stages).

It'll play out much like the time England were expelled from the then Five Nations https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/england-ejected-from-five-nations-1.1256720



       
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 April, 2021, 01:23:28 pm
the League Cup in England
The Water Buffalo Cup as it shall now be known. Mozzarella for the cup!
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Mr Larrington on 19 April, 2021, 01:35:56 pm
I see Tottenham is one of the teams on the list.  Remind me again when Spurs were last the Champions of English foopball as she is played?

[“1962” – Ed.]
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 19 April, 2021, 01:45:57 pm
I see Tottenham is one of the teams on the list.  Remind me again when Spurs were last the Champions of English foopball as she is played?

[“1962” – Ed.]
There are a lot of memes going around about the vast success of Spurs when compared to the rest of the 12. I think this may be my favourite: https://twitter.com/Orbinho/status/1384063188216414212
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 19 April, 2021, 02:33:14 pm
It’s capitalism in action. If the new super league can convince the television bean counters that they are who everyone* wants to watch, they get the TV money and no one else gets a look in. Those on the gravy train at FIFA don’t want completion for the bribes incentives and so threaten the players with not playing for their national teams.

Yes, but why is the new superleague seen as any worse for fans than FIFA or EUFA?
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: rogerzilla on 19 April, 2021, 02:38:36 pm
Well Johnson has pledged to stop it which means it's almost certain to go ahead, probably with Dido Harding in charge.
Which would be cunning, as everything she touches turns to shit.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Beardy on 19 April, 2021, 03:21:28 pm
It’s capitalism in action. If the new super league can convince the television bean counters that they are who everyone* wants to watch, they get the TV money and no one else gets a look in. Those on the gravy train at FIFA don’t want completion for the bribes incentives and so threaten the players with not playing for their national teams.

Yes, but why is the new superleague seen as any worse for fans than FIFA or EUFA?
I don’t think the audience care one way or another to be honest. As long as they get wall to wall association football streamed into their homes or pubs and that they can support ‘their’ team occasionally, they’ll be happy. I think audience is a better term these days because I associate fan with those chaps that went along to the football grounds of a weekend to support the team they had done so since they were knee high to a grasshopper.

Personally, I don’t care what they do, because I view most professional footballers as overpaid prima Donna’s, most of whom wouldn’t recognise sportsmanship if it hit them over the back of the head with a wet kipper.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 19 April, 2021, 03:58:40 pm
It’s capitalism in action. If the new super league can convince the television bean counters that they are who everyone* wants to watch, they get the TV money and no one else gets a look in. Those on the gravy train at FIFA don’t want completion for the bribes incentives and so threaten the players with not playing for their national teams.

Yes, but why is the new superleague seen as any worse for fans than FIFA or EUFA?
I don’t think the audience care one way or another to be honest. As long as they get wall to wall association football streamed into their homes or pubs and that they can support ‘their’ team occasionally, they’ll be happy. I think audience is a better term these days because I associate fan with those chaps that went along to the football grounds of a weekend to support the team they had done so since they were knee high to a grasshopper.
Then you aren't listening.  Fan reaction from pretty much all the clubs involved has been extremely anti (Spurs fans might be busy with other things). I've not heard/read anyone trying to defend it. There is an article somewhere saying they have done this based on the idea that they can irritate the "legacy fans" because there are enough "new fans" to take their places.  Utterly disregarding the idea that "legacy fans" are the ones who go to the game, create the atmosphere, support their team for life etc.

The new superleague has several strikes against it, but the basic problem is that they are tearing up the pinnacle of the game to make a few quid and screw over everyone else.

The list of objections I've seen:

(click to show/hide)
All fan created flags are going to be removed from Anfield:
https://twitter.com/SpionKop1906/status/1384095535854800901
Except this one I guess...
https://twitter.com/TheAnfieldWrap/status/1384117183748268041

Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: bobb on 19 April, 2021, 04:14:05 pm
Notice there are no German clubs involved. You cannot play in the Bundesliga if commercial investors have more than a 49 percent stake in your club. In other words, the majority vote on anything like this is down to the fans. And the fans say nein to this nonsense in Germany, just like they would everywhere else if they could....
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Peter on 19 April, 2021, 04:25:20 pm
Because, at the moment, they run/own football and its participants (don't forget it's the UEFA Champions League, the UEFA World Cup and so on).  It's a not very well disguised form of slavery known as restriction of trade.  I've realised I don't actually care very much, any more.

Up to a point, Lord Copper.  The World Cup is FIFA's, er, ball-game.

Sorry.  I guess it's an indication of just how much I can't be bothered, these days!
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: De Sisti on 19 April, 2021, 04:26:56 pm
Bayern Munich should have been a shoe-in for this caper.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 19 April, 2021, 04:35:57 pm
Bayern Munich should have been a shoe-in for this caper.
They were invited (presumably pressured) but turned it down to stay in the existing structures. Presumably because of 50+1.
Likewise, PSG turned it down, though I suspect that's because they are owned by Qatar, who paid a lot of money for CL rights.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: De Sisti on 19 April, 2021, 04:53:33 pm
Bayern Munich...turned it down to stay in the existing structures. Presumably because of 50+1.
Please explain.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: matthew on 19 April, 2021, 05:06:48 pm
Bayern Munich...turned it down to stay in the existing structures. Presumably because of 50+1.
Please explain.

Notice there are no German clubs involved. You cannot play in the Bundesliga if commercial investors have more than a 49 percent stake in your club. In other words, the majority vote on anything like this is down to the fans. And the fans say nein to this nonsense in Germany, just like they would everywhere else if they could....

Basically in Germany the fans have to hold 50% + 1 vote in the ownership structure of the club, therefore you would have to persuade the supporters association to back the idea for the club to join. Given the current fan reaction and DuncanM's accurate observation about fans being able to afford to travel to 9 european mid week away games, (flights, tickets, hotels, time off work etc.) then this might not be possible with the German clubs.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 19 April, 2021, 05:24:45 pm
This is proper interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-qjx_8_DZ0
I know it's under The Anfield Wrap banner, but it's about the structure and not LFC specific (and it's not ranting about how evil the owners are).
They end by asking what happens next?
It's insane. Legitimately - does top 4 become meaningless this season? Is there now nothing riding on the Chelsea - West Ham game next week?

Just seen the "Swiss" system for the Champions league. 36 teams in group stage, giving 10 group games, a potential playoff, and then the rounds 16->final resulting in 17 games.
Europa League is 8 games in group, Europa Conference (yes, really!) is 6 group games, so I guess totals of 15 and 13 respectively.
They have also changed the rules, so if you finish in a qualifying place for the lesser UEFA competitions, but you have a high coefficient (ranking based on previous recent European performances) then you can get into the CL. And the league of the winner gets an extra place. So if Chelsea or City were to win it this year, and Liverpool were to finish 7th, there would be a chance that 6 English teams would be eligible (but not the team in 6th).

Oh, also, UEFA want to throw Real, City and Chelsea out of this year's Champions League competition. I guess that means congratulations are due to PSG for winning the final last week? I'm sure they will be happy to finally win the Champions League in the most glorious way they could have imagined.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: citoyen on 19 April, 2021, 05:56:45 pm
Sounds like Mourinho has taken a stand against the ESL. And got sacked.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56799400

It's pretty clear from that piece this has been coming for a while and is entirely down to his failings as a manager. The idea that Mourinho would take a principled stand on anything is frankly laughable.

There was a widely shared tweet this morning that claimed it was down to him disagreeing with the owners over the ESL but it was quickly debunked as not being from a reliable source, and no credible news outlets have repeated the claim, afaics.

(The more believable suggestion I've heard is that Harry Kane signing a new contract was contingent on whether or not Mourinho continued as manager.)
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Mr Larrington on 19 April, 2021, 06:14:38 pm
Bayern Munich...turned it down to stay in the existing structures. Presumably because of 50+1.
Please explain.

Notice there are no German clubs involved. You cannot play in the Bundesliga if commercial investors have more than a 49 percent stake in your club. In other words, the majority vote on anything like this is down to the fans. And the fans say nein to this nonsense in Germany, just like they would everywhere else if they could....

Basically in Germany the fans have to hold 50% + 1 vote in the ownership structure of the club, therefore you would have to persuade the supporters association to back the idea for the club to join. Given the current fan reaction and DuncanM's accurate observation about fans being able to afford to travel to 9 european mid week away games, (flights, tickets, hotels, time off work etc.) then this might not be possible with the German clubs.

Which makes me wonder how the supporters of FC Barcelona and Real Madrid are taking it, as they’re also owned by the fans.  Especially the latter since club prez Florentino Perez is also slated to be the ESL's chairman.
Title: European Super League
Post by: citoyen on 19 April, 2021, 06:48:31 pm
All fan created flags are going to be removed from Anfield:


They’re already creating new ones to replace them:

https://twitter.com/jaymckenna87/status/1384045369454043140?s=21
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Mr Larrington on 19 April, 2021, 07:58:55 pm
According to C4, Jürgen Klopp holds this idea to be a Bad Thing.  He continues to rise in my estimation.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: citoyen on 19 April, 2021, 08:12:22 pm
According to C4, Jürgen Klopp holds this idea to be a Bad Thing.  He continues to rise in my estimation.

Brilliantly, he has made it clear that he doesn’t support the super league idea while also making it clear that UEFA aren’t exactly the good guys here either.

He’s great.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Peter on 19 April, 2021, 09:40:24 pm
According to C4, Jürgen Klopp holds this idea to be a Bad Thing.  He continues to rise in my estimation.

And he's already 6' 4".
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: fd3 on 19 April, 2021, 10:36:55 pm
I think the ESL clubs have really put a dumbass spin on this.  Yesterday it looked like they were proposing a European League to sit above the national leagues but as a distinct comp. 
Now it appears they just have different plans for the Champions' League.

Even if I did care about the 11-man sport I don't see that this is a significant issue that requires such nicker twisting.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Asterix, the former Gaul. on 20 April, 2021, 06:46:48 am
It’s just the football industry going the way it has for years. Shrugs shoulders and spreads hands in an attitude signifying complete indifference.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: fd3 on 20 April, 2021, 09:21:14 am
I don't think that the German teams and PSG sticking to the CL model has anything to do with 51% fan ownership.  I think it's down to their league system and how the clubs operate.  Basically, Bayern and PSG would be mid-tier at best in the ESL - it's better for them to play a more cup orientated comp where they have a better chance of winning.  The Spanish clubs, with 51% fan ownership, have signed up - this makes sense for them because they could compete in the ESL and if anything it gives their clubs something more competitive than La Ligua.

1. It's anti-meritocratic, and it makes much of the season meaningless. If it was already in place, then pretty much every team from 3rd to 14th would have nothing riding on their remaining 6 or 7 games. Having consequences to winning/losing is part of what makes a match important.
2. It is turning it's back on the European Cup/Champions League heritage. No matter whether you are Real chasing #14, Liverpool chasing #7, or City chasing #1, the European cup and it's successor tournament have come to define the top of European football. To tell fans that the chase is over, that there is some new tournament with a new name and a new trophy, and they will never see their team lift the European Cup (they kept the same cup - it's part of the charm) is a big deal.
3. It's explicitly aimed at keeping the wealthy clubs at the top of the game forever, which makes it more about money than about competition on the field.
4. It stokes the divisions within the local/international fanbase - who can afford to travel to 9 away games in europe?
5. With 6 English teams, that means you'd get to play 2 other English teams at least 4 times a season - that gets boring (see Liverpool Chelsea 2005-9).
All fair points.  I do think that fans are currently knee-jerk reacting to how this was initially perceived as a league above the the PL/La Ligua/etc - once the details actually have time to sink in I think that they will be less worried.
1 - This is already 60-90% there.  Mid-tier teams play for a bit of extra cash to splash the next year and top teams play for European football money.  While there is a short amount of joy at seeing a mid tier team make it to the CL, it's short lived as they will crash out early - better keep the big boy's comp for the big boys who can actually play the game at that level.
I wouldn't call the 11-man game meritocratic, it's all down to purchasing power.
2 - Okay, but heritage would suggest no PL, can you still see fans wearing hair shirts over that?
3 - As opposed to how the 11-man game is structured at the moment (e.g. in English football the only way to compete is to either already start in the top-6 or to be bought up by some foreign oligarch)?  If you are a fan of one of the top clubs you'll quickly come round to the idea of not needing to compete for the place your team deserves.  If you are a fan of a team that might get into the European league, just to then crash out early, you'll probably be happy to get money in lieu and save your players for the domestic league matches.  If you are 99% out of the running then some cash to shut you up would be welcome.
4 - Who can afford to go to two away European matches?  Once you accept that getting to more than 1 away European match will be unlikely for most people then whether there's 4 or 20 away matches it makes no difference.
5 - Tee Hee, did you see what you did there?  You suggested that it might be boring...

This doesn't change the very valid points you/fans are making, I'm just suggesting that once this gets time to calm down and people have a chance to think about it fans will rethink or modify their position.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 April, 2021, 09:34:54 am
I don't think that the German teams and PSG sticking to the CL model has anything to do with 51% fan ownership.  I think it's down to their league system and how the clubs operate.  Basically, Bayern and PSG would be mid-tier at best in the ESL - it's better for them to play a more cup orientated comp where they have a better chance of winning.  The Spanish clubs, with 51% fan ownership, have signed up - this makes sense for them because they could compete in the ESL and if anything it gives their clubs something more competitive than La Ligua.
Which makes it all the odder that Spurs have signed up.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: citoyen on 20 April, 2021, 09:39:49 am
Basically, Bayern and PSG would be mid-tier at best in the ESL

Nah. If that were the reason, Spurs wouldn't be interested either. [ETA: crossposted with Cudzo. Great minds... Ha!]

For PSG, it's quite simply because they're owned by Qatar who have a vested interest in supporting Fifa, having paid them a fortune in backhanders to be awarded the World Cup.

Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund couldn't make such a decision without a fan vote, which they know they would lose, so they're not even trying.

Quote
I'm just suggesting that once this gets time to calm down and people have a chance to think about it fans will rethink or modify their position.

It's a moot point, since the ESL in the format announced the other day simply won't happen. There will be some brinkmanship but they'll come to a compromise sooner or later.

Whatever happens, the one thing you can be sure of is that the outcome won't be good for the fans.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 20 April, 2021, 09:50:01 am
PSG aren't 50+1. PSG didn't sign up because their owners have invested billions in the UEFA Champions League and the World Cup.
Also, Barca and Real aren't 50+1 - they are entirely fan owned. But they are also utterly broke (Barca are 1 Billion Euro in debt!) and can't carry on as they are.
Given Bayern and PSG made the final of the Champions League last year, to suggest they would be mid-table is absurd. Look at the euro club index - Bayern second, PSG fifth: https://www.euroclubindex.com/
(NB AC Milan are 23rd!)

I don't think the "legacy fans" are going to calm down. Whether they can do anything about it while they aren't allowed to demonstrate of go to the ground is another matter entirely. the feeling of being dumped on by the higher ups is very strong, and groups within a club fanbase (eg Spirit of Shankly) can organise very effectively, but I don't know if they can co-ordinate across fanbases.

Also, I think that describing Arsenal and Spurs as the big teams is absurd and demonstrates why locking teams in as overlords is a bad idea. Nottingham Forrest have more Big Cups than Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham, City, and Atletico combined.

Another thing that makes this such a big deal is that these clubs are busy burning their bridges. Leaving the European Clubs Association might not be such a big deal, but quitting important roles (various chairmanships) with UEFA is huge.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Wowbagger on 20 April, 2021, 10:47:27 am
I can't understand why the government is against this. Huge wealth and power lording it to the detriment of everyone else is exactly what they encourage in all other forms of business. It couldn't be to do with a passing bandwagon and the need to stay ahead in the polls, could it? Surely they wouldn't be so shallow.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 20 April, 2021, 10:49:02 am
I can't understand why the government is against this. Huge wealth and power lording it to the detriment of everyone else is exactly what they encourage in all other forms of business. it couldn't be to do with a passing bandwagon and the need to stay ahead in the polls, could it? Surely they wouldn't be so shallow.
They must have forgotten to make a suitable donation to the Tory party.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: citoyen on 20 April, 2021, 10:50:13 am
I can't understand why the government is against this. Huge wealth and power lording it to the detriment of everyone else is exactly what they encourage in all other forms of business. it couldn't be to do with a passing bandwagon and the need to stay ahead in the polls, could it? Surely they wouldn't be so shallow.

So much cynicism... I'm disappointed you find it so hard to believe that our beloved PM would be acting through anything other than pure altruism.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: John Stonebridge on 20 April, 2021, 11:01:37 am
Im not buying the view that the removal of the 6 English clubs in the Dirty Dozen from the Premier League would represent the end of the world.

Football clubs have generally used the additional money from recent TV contracts to pay players more, so any reduction in TV revenue from losing these 6 teams would flow through to lower wages.  Boo fucking hoo.  The TV companies have schedules to fill and will get busy selling Leicester v Everton if they have to.   

Four out the top 6 in the Championship have recently been in the top flight so its not like a bunch of no hopers would be parachuted in - and in any event they might take the opportunity to restructure the top league to have fewer than 20 clubs. 

While doing everything they can to avoid it, the Premier League ultimately need to be prepared to expel these 6 teams, though it appears that UEFA are preparing to get in there first vis a vis this seasons Champions League. 

Still think its brinkmanship mind.   

   

Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 April, 2021, 11:15:13 am
Also, I think that describing Arsenal and Spurs as the big teams is absurd and demonstrates why locking teams in as overlords is a bad idea. Nottingham Forrest have more Big Cups than Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham, City, and Atletico combined.
I think it's as much or more to with their bossing the relevant leagues over the last couple of decades than European victories. At least, that explains Arsenal. For Tottenham I guess it's just because they are one of the richest clubs. (Which itself poses a question: they haven't got money from wining cups and leagues and they don't have a global fanbase like the others – though I wonder if City do too – so it must come from their local fans, the very people they're alienating with this move*. Or maybe just from astute investments?)

*Though if that alienation comes, supposedly, from renouncing the chance of Champions League performances, that doesn't really stack up for Spurs either.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: TimC on 20 April, 2021, 11:23:06 am
Checking for fucks to give.


No, none left.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 20 April, 2021, 12:29:51 pm
Im not buying the view that the removal of the 6 English clubs in the Dirty Dozen from the Premier League would represent the end of the world.

Football clubs have generally used the additional money from recent TV contracts to pay players more, so any reduction in TV revenue from losing these 6 teams would flow through to lower wages.  Boo fucking hoo.  The TV companies have schedules to fill and will get busy selling Leicester v Everton if they have to.   

Four out the top 6 in the Championship have recently been in the top flight so its not like a bunch of no hopers would be parachuted in - and in any event they might take the opportunity to restructure the top league to have fewer than 20 clubs. 

While doing everything they can to avoid it, the Premier League ultimately need to be prepared to expel these 6 teams, though it appears that UEFA are preparing to get in there first vis a vis this seasons Champions League. 

Still think its brinkmanship mind.   
The giant driver behind premier league revenues is overseas TV. TV companies struggled during the pandemic, and the French league lost their TV deal when the company that bid massive money for it went into administration. If the Premier League were to expel the 6 biggest clubs, then the overseas TV companies would have all the grounds they need to pull their cash, especially if there is a new competition they would rather show instead. As a neutral, do you watch West Ham vs Leicester, or Barca vs City? Player salaries are guaranteed, you can't just cut player wages. Most premier league clubs last year ran at a significant loss despite over £100m each from TV - if you cut that then everyone will be struggling to stay afloat. Likewise, the "solidarity payment" from the Premier League is what keeps lower league clubs afloat (though they have fewer long term contracts, so might escape out from under the wage bill).

I hope it's brinkmanship because expelling the biggest clubs in your competition is a bad thing for everyone, but the way they all left the various associations scares me that it's not.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Hair_Today_Gone_Tomorrow on 20 April, 2021, 01:42:00 pm
you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: John Stonebridge on 20 April, 2021, 01:47:49 pm
Im not buying the view that the removal of the 6 English clubs in the Dirty Dozen from the Premier League would represent the end of the world.

Football clubs have generally used the additional money from recent TV contracts to pay players more, so any reduction in TV revenue from losing these 6 teams would flow through to lower wages.  Boo fucking hoo.  The TV companies have schedules to fill and will get busy selling Leicester v Everton if they have to.   

Four out the top 6 in the Championship have recently been in the top flight so its not like a bunch of no hopers would be parachuted in - and in any event they might take the opportunity to restructure the top league to have fewer than 20 clubs. 

While doing everything they can to avoid it, the Premier League ultimately need to be prepared to expel these 6 teams, though it appears that UEFA are preparing to get in there first vis a vis this seasons Champions League. 

Still think its brinkmanship mind.   
The giant driver behind premier league revenues is overseas TV.

Overseas TV revenue isn't even the majority of the EPLs TV revenue https://media.sportbusiness.com/news/premier-league-rights-value-up-8-to-9-2bn-on-overseas-income/

I wasnt suggesting that football clubs cut players wages.  Football clubs like other business will be able to manage employment costs by cutting their cloth to fit by (i) having fewer employees and (ii) amending the terms of contracts as and when they come up for review which tends to happen on a staggered basis.  They might also be able to dust down their top earners contracts to see if they contain "force majeur" clause or similar that they might invoke. 

The remaining 14 clubs would want none of this voluntarily, but its survivable for them.       


 
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Hair_Today_Gone_Tomorrow on 20 April, 2021, 02:17:00 pm
...
I wasnt suggesting that football clubs cut players wages.  Football clubs like other business will be able to manage employment costs by cutting their cloth to fit by (i) having fewer employees ....       


 

i'm not sure playing with 7 players will be a successful strategy, and any reduction beyond that would mean no games played :demon: :demon:
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 20 April, 2021, 02:52:30 pm
Im not buying the view that the removal of the 6 English clubs in the Dirty Dozen from the Premier League would represent the end of the world.

Football clubs have generally used the additional money from recent TV contracts to pay players more, so any reduction in TV revenue from losing these 6 teams would flow through to lower wages.  Boo fucking hoo.  The TV companies have schedules to fill and will get busy selling Leicester v Everton if they have to.   

Four out the top 6 in the Championship have recently been in the top flight so its not like a bunch of no hopers would be parachuted in - and in any event they might take the opportunity to restructure the top league to have fewer than 20 clubs. 

While doing everything they can to avoid it, the Premier League ultimately need to be prepared to expel these 6 teams, though it appears that UEFA are preparing to get in there first vis a vis this seasons Champions League. 

Still think its brinkmanship mind.   
The giant driver behind premier league revenues is overseas TV.

Overseas TV revenue isn't even the majority of the EPLs TV revenue https://media.sportbusiness.com/news/premier-league-rights-value-up-8-to-9-2bn-on-overseas-income/

I wasnt suggesting that football clubs cut players wages.  Football clubs like other business will be able to manage employment costs by cutting their cloth to fit by (i) having fewer employees and (ii) amending the terms of contracts as and when they come up for review which tends to happen on a staggered basis.  They might also be able to dust down their top earners contracts to see if they contain "force majeur" clause or similar that they might invoke. 

The remaining 14 clubs would want none of this voluntarily, but its survivable for them.       

Overseas TV is the growth market, and the only bit that went up last time. The numbers from that article are all pre-pandemic numbers, which is relevant because BT and Sky negotiated a significant discount on future payments when games were stopped last March. If the 6 most screened clubs suddenly disappeared, I think they would be similarly unhappy.
Here's the TV revenue as a percentage of turnover, from that same season: https://www.footballcritic.com/news/which-premier-league-clubs-are-most-reliant-on-tv-revenuec/893 Anyone in the top half is going to struggle if TV revenue goes down significantly (and that's before you take into account the lack of fans coming through the turnstiles taking away even more revenue this year).
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: John Stonebridge on 20 April, 2021, 02:56:25 pm
...
I wasnt suggesting that football clubs cut players wages.  Football clubs like other business will be able to manage employment costs by cutting their cloth to fit by (i) having fewer employees ....       


 

i'm not sure playing with 7 players will be a successful strategy, and any reduction beyond that would mean no games played :demon: :demon:

Clubs have enormous 1st team squads. 

Here selected at random are three of the teams destined to be in the new "My-Nan-could-score-in-that-Farmers League" 

Everton : 33 https://www.premierleague.com/clubs/7/Everton/squad

Newcastle : 30 https://www.premierleague.com/clubs/23/Newcastle-United/squad

Southampton : 30 https://www.premierleague.com/clubs/20/Southampton/squad 

Looks like theres a bit of slack.   

Clubs also have non playing staff
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 20 April, 2021, 03:06:58 pm
You can register 25 senior players providing 8 are homegrown. Kids don't count.  Of the 33 listed for Everton, 9 have not played for the club - the majority of those (of not all) are kids.  They won't be on huge money, and they aren't ready for the first team yet. Of the players who are on huge money, unless their contracts are up then you have an obligation to pay them unless you can convince someone else to take them on. Everton lost £111 million in the year to June 2019 (the last financial year for which we have accounts), before Covid. Their wages to turnover ratio was 85%.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51114007
There's not a lot of slack there if you can't get the playing wage bill down.

Moshiri can afford to bankroll Everton for as long as he wants.
The leveraged buyout of Burnley is looking a bit dicey though, and I bet Mike Ashley is spitting feathers!
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Feanor on 20 April, 2021, 04:12:14 pm
Not a subject I follow, but you can't miss it in the news.

I really don't get what business it is of the gubbinsment to wade into a private dispute between private sports clubs and the various league organizations / governing bodies they choose to align themselves with.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: fd3 on 20 April, 2021, 05:14:55 pm
^ Yes, you'd think they'd be all for aa free market!
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: hubner on 20 April, 2021, 05:57:55 pm
OK, I've read a little bit about this, a number of private businesses owned by billionaires employing multi-millionaires playing a game want to set up their own league/competition, so what??!!

Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Mr Larrington on 20 April, 2021, 06:19:11 pm
One problem is that it’s a closed shop and clubs who have won the top-level title a lot more recently than Spurs won't get a look-in, because they’re unfashionable.  Also it smells USAnian, where the notion of promotion and relegation is anathema :demon:
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: hubner on 20 April, 2021, 06:50:41 pm
One problem is that it’s a closed shop and clubs who have won the top-level title a lot more recently than Spurs won't get a look-in, because they’re unfashionable.  Also it smells USAnian, where the notion of promotion and relegation is anathema :demon:

I must be thick, so what?
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Beardy on 20 April, 2021, 06:51:12 pm
I’m curious to know jus how BSJ is going to thwart the super league as he has apparently promised to do. I can’t see how it would fall foul of the monopolies and mergers law because it only represents 6 out of 40 or 50 professional clubs in England. It’s not exactly a cartel when it only involves circa 15% and the rest of the teams can carry on as before. What the Europeans decide is none of our governments business either. What it will come down to is whether Sky or BT are interested in broadcasting the new league and again as none public sector businesses the government have no direct control there either.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: John Stonebridge on 20 April, 2021, 07:17:01 pm
Looks like the first rat is preparing to leave the sinking ship ESL.  https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56823501 

Just when you think you cant dislike these twats anymore they cave in after 2 days. 
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Mr Larrington on 20 April, 2021, 07:18:42 pm
One problem is that it’s a closed shop and clubs who have won the top-level title a lot more recently than Spurs won't get a look-in, because they’re unfashionable.  Also it smells USAnian, where the notion of promotion and relegation is anathema :demon:

I must be thick, so what?

Quote from: Pep Guardiola
It is not a sport where the relation between the effort and the success, the effort and the reward, does not exist. It is not a sport where success is already guaranteed or it is not a sport when it doesn’t matter where you lose.

And he's got some claim to know what his talking about, seeing as how he's manager of Manchester City.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 April, 2021, 07:27:25 pm
There is the argument that by freeing up places in the Champions League, European football with its accompanying glamour, skill-intensification and money, becomes available to a wider distribution. If winning the, say, Bulgarian league lands you with a CL spot, that intensifies competition and brings money to Bulgarian football.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Salvatore on 20 April, 2021, 08:06:13 pm
Latest rumours:
1. Man City, Barcelona and Atletico Madrid set to follow Chelsea in withdrawing
2 Ed Woodward has resigned from Man Utd (ed. and also Andrea Agnelli from Juventus)

It was pointed out that Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Milan  are US owned and investments for profit, whereas Chelsea and Man City are oligarchs' playthings.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: citoyen on 20 April, 2021, 08:29:23 pm
There is the argument that by freeing up places in the Champions League, European football with its accompanying glamour, skill-intensification and money, becomes available to a wider distribution. If winning the, say, Bulgarian league lands you with a CL spot, that intensifies competition and brings money to Bulgarian football.

That’s pretty much the way the European Cup worked before they rebranded it as the Champions League in 1993, or whenever it was. Listening to commentary on crackly longwave radio of your team playing against the likes of CSKA Sofia was part of the fun and excitement of European football. Watching them play the same small handful of teams year after year gets quite boring.

Even in their late 70s/early 80s heyday there were seasons when Liverpool didn’t qualify for Europe. You treasure it more when it’s harder to achieve.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: citoyen on 20 April, 2021, 08:34:47 pm
I must be thick

Well...

You may not care about football but you really ought to care about the wider implications of this and what it says about how the world works. Football is a microcosm.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 April, 2021, 08:52:10 pm
High-concentrate capitalism mixed with global politics on layers of tradition and mistakes.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: sg37409 on 20 April, 2021, 10:50:17 pm
I don’t remember the other EPL clubs and pundits crying when uefa changed the qualifying rules to give England 4 places in the CL and the champions of wee diddy countries like us have play 3 qualifiers. 
The super league won’t happen now but it will come in some shape or form soon enough.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Wowbagger on 20 April, 2021, 11:20:46 pm
I understand that Chelsea was the first club to pull out.

I read on another forum of which I'm a member that the pitch at Chelsea, as distinct from the Stamford Bridge ground, is actually owned by the membership. The guy who claimed this sai he was one of a pretty big consortium who own it, and that since the fans didn't want t, there would be an almighty legal row between the club, the owner of Stamford Bridge, and the fans.

For all I know he might have been talking complete bollocks, and ICBA to find out, but it sounded mildly interesting and plausible. Maybe someone on here knows?
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Mr Larrington on 20 April, 2021, 11:29:43 pm
According to Wikinaccurate:

Quote
Chelsea Pitch Owners plc is a nonprofit organisation which is part of Chelsea Football Club, tasked with the upkeep of the stadium. It owns both the freehold of the Stamford Bridge stadium and the naming rights of Chelsea Football Club.

Which presumably includes the actual grass.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Wowbagger on 20 April, 2021, 11:38:19 pm
There's this: https://twitter.com/pitchowners/status/1384145943482703873

Quote
Like all Chelsea FC supporters, the CPO Board is monitoring the proposals for a European Super League as they develop. We will keep in mind our objective, which is to ensure that the Club continues to play football at Stamford Bridge, a ground owned by the Club’s fans.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Mr Larrington on 21 April, 2021, 12:53:22 am
It looks very much as though the wheels have already come off the proposal with all six English clubs having a sudden change of heart.  Some reports have both Milan sides and Atletico Madrid doing likewise.  Barcelona is apparently going to put it to the club members, as if it'll make a difference.  I don't think there’s much money to be made out of a series consisting solely of Juventus v. Real Madrid matches.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Jakob on 21 April, 2021, 05:33:56 am
I don't see the reason for the fuss?.
Any connection to the 'fans' are long gone anyway and they're just marks to milk money from.
I'd loved to see them push ahead, if nothing else as a big FU to UEFA and the PL/FA.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Hot Flatus on 21 April, 2021, 06:27:49 am
Glad I didn't bother to try and find out what this was all about
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: citoyen on 21 April, 2021, 07:34:27 am
I don't see the reason for the fuss?.
Any connection to the 'fans' are long gone anyway and they're just marks to milk money from.
I'd loved to see them push ahead, if nothing else as a big FU to UEFA and the PL/FA.

This is why it grates so much to hear the likes of Sky mouthpiece Gary Neville positioning himself as a moral crusader on this. Sky are largely responsible for making this situation inevitable.

That said, you can’t make a stand against greed and corruption by being even more corrupt and greedy. The ESL proposals were a step too far.

It will happen in one form or another eventually though, that much seems clear.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 April, 2021, 07:56:17 am
Glad I didn't bother to try and find out what this was all about
It's a sports form of Brexit, with England taking back control from European sports. This means next time you ride the Forest Green Rovers 200, you'll have to be on a custom-made Reynolds-tubed bike, with components from Hope and Chater-Lea, a saggy leather saddle and a huge canvas saddle bag. You know you're going to just love it!
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Jaded on 21 April, 2021, 07:56:50 am
It looks very much as though the wheels have already come off the proposal with all six English clubs having a sudden change of heart.  Some reports have both Milan sides and Atletico Madrid doing likewise.  Barcelona is apparently going to put it to the club members, as if it'll make a difference.  I don't think there’s much money to be made out of a series consisting solely of Juventus v. Real Madrid matches.

Looks like that we will end up with a couple of sides playing with themselves.

Surely Man United should be in that group?
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 21 April, 2021, 08:28:55 am
I don't see the reason for the fuss?.
Any connection to the 'fans' are long gone anyway and they're just marks to milk money from.
I'd loved to see them push ahead, if nothing else as a big FU to UEFA and the PL/FA.

This is why it grates so much to hear the likes of Sky mouthpiece Gary Neville positioning himself as a moral crusader on this. Sky are largely responsible for making this situation inevitable.
Plus Neville is a co-owner of Salford City FC who some say have thrown money around and bought their way into the league.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: citoyen on 21 April, 2021, 09:16:21 am
John Barnes telling it like it is:
https://twitter.com/BBCBreakfast/status/1384772410868645889?s=20
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: mcshroom on 21 April, 2021, 09:28:59 am
It could be that the ESL clubs got basically what they wanted. hidden in this mess was UEFA's announcement of the new Champions League format - link (https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/news/0268-1213f7aa85bb-d56154ff8fe8-1000--uefa-announces-new-format-for-club-competitions-to-be-introduce/)

I like some bits of it. The Swiss pairing system is in many ways a much better system than all-play-all groups IMHO. Wow will know the system well as this is how most chess tournaments are run. After the first round, all the teams that won will play other teams that won, all the teams that lost will play other losers. As the rounds go on, you play teams with the same number of points as yourselves each time, so by the later rounds, the teams with the most points will all be playing each other, so the games get bigger as you reach the end of the group stage.

What I don't like is the coefficient bit at the end. Basically that seems to be a sop to the biggest clubs in Europe. Do well in previous seasons of the competition, and you can qualify even if you have a bad year domestically. AS I've heard it described, you could get to the situation where a big team like a Man City or Liverpool could qualify for the CL, when finishing the Premiership below smaller teams with less previous success. I can't see how that would feel fair for a Leicester/Leeds/Everton who would miss out.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: citoyen on 21 April, 2021, 09:35:12 am
Jurgen Klopp spoke about the CL changes after the Leeds game on Monday. He's not in favour, not least because it means more games for teams to fit into an already congested season. Plus there's Fifa's plans to expand the Club World Cup.

If people are worried about how the ESL proposal would have damaged the domestic game, they should take a closer look at what Uefa and Fifa are up to. Teams playing in Europe will almost certainly have to withdraw from the domestic cup competitions. I think it's quite likely the size of the Premier League will have to be reduced as well.

None of this is in the interest of fans. It's all about the greed of those in power, nothing else.

Part of the reason for the timing of the ESL announcement was because they knew the Uefa announcement was coming. I expect they felt fans would respond more positively to their plans in contrast to the shitshow Uefa are proposing. Unfortunately for them, it had precisely the opposite effect, simply distracting attention from the CL proposals.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: mcshroom on 21 April, 2021, 09:57:06 am
I don't understand why they need more games. The swiss system works for any number of rounds, so it could be used for the same number of games as the current CL. The paring system is designed to allow big fields so they can expand the number of teams playing, without having to up the number of games any one team plays. I've played in and chess tournaments with well over 100 entrants using this system.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 April, 2021, 09:57:50 am
The club coefficient feels like an extension of what happened in 2005(?) when Liverpool(?) won the CL then failed to qualify the next year, so were given a pass for being "reigning champions". Which TBF is what happens in many competitions.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 21 April, 2021, 10:02:52 am
What I don't like is the coefficient bit at the end. Basically that seems to be a sop to the biggest clubs in Europe. Do well in previous seasons of the competition, and you can qualify even if you have a bad year domestically. AS I've heard it described, you could get to the situation where a big team like a Man City or Liverpool could qualify for the CL, when finishing the Premiership below smaller teams with less previous success. I can't see how that would feel fair for a Leicester/Leeds/Everton who would miss out.
Kinda, but the smaller clubs doesn't miss out as such. If they finish in the top 4, they get into the CL. The only way that it would be odd is if they come 5th, and a club with a big coefficient come 6th. Then, if the big coefficient club is in the top 2 of clubs ranked by coefficient who have missed out on the CL, they would get an extra space in the CL. It's odd, but it doesn't take anything away from the club in 5th.

The Champions exemption is interesting, in that it means that if the champion is from your league, your league gets an extra place, so the club in 5th in the PL could get a CL place if one of the top 4 wins the CL.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: citoyen on 21 April, 2021, 10:03:26 am
I don't understand why they need more games.

Then you're not paying attention. This has been answered many times over - the people who run football are motivated by one thing, and one thing only.

Watch the John Barnes clip I linked earlier.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: citoyen on 21 April, 2021, 10:07:27 am
Kinda, but the smaller clubs doesn't miss out as such. If they finish in the top 4, they get into the CL.

This notion of "smaller clubs" needs to be put into context. That's "smaller" within the elite leagues. Even the biggest clubs within the smaller leagues don't get a look in.

I'd be very happy if we went back to only the actual league champions qualifying (plus maybe the previous year's winners). Leeds players were wearing T-shirts the other night proclaiming that clubs should earn the right to play in the "champions" league. I wonder if they'd have felt the same if they were competing for fourth place.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 21 April, 2021, 10:35:20 am
Kinda, but the smaller clubs doesn't miss out as such. If they finish in the top 4, they get into the CL.

This notion of "smaller clubs" needs to be put into context. That's "smaller" within the elite leagues. Even the biggest clubs within the smaller leagues don't get a look in.

I'd be very happy if we went back to only the actual league champions qualifying (plus maybe the previous year's winners). Leeds players were wearing T-shirts the other night proclaiming that clubs should earn the right to play in the "champions" league. I wonder if they'd have felt the same if they were competing for fourth place.
I agree entirely about the notion of Everton or Leicester being a "small" club. My response was worded that way because of the question, but it's a common way of thinking now - there's the richest 6 who were leaving and then a bunch of smaller clubs. It's down to the giant riches that the Champions League has brought to the ones that frequently finish in the top 4. However, the idea that you can go back to only the winners playing in the CL would only work if the CL had no money associated with it. In a world where the CL gives you up to £100m a season, that entrenches inequality just as much as having the top 4 setup we have now (see countless smaller European leagues where the same team wins year after year after year). 7 clubs have won the PL since 1992, and 3 of those have only won it once.  There are probably only 3 or 4 teams that can realistically hope to win it each year. Also, without a "race for top 4" this year, the league would be utterly done. Relegation is sorted, the title is sorted, it's only the CL spots that are being competed over. The Europa League (and Conference!) are more trouble than they are worth.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: citoyen on 21 April, 2021, 10:52:39 am
However, the idea that you can go back to only the winners playing in the CL would only work if the CL had no money associated with it. In a world where the CL gives you up to £100m a season, that entrenches inequality just as much as having the top 4 setup we have now (see countless smaller European leagues where the same team wins year after year after year). 7 clubs have won the PL since 1992, and 3 of those have only won it once.  There are probably only 3 or 4 teams that can realistically hope to win it each year. Also, without a "race for top 4" this year, the league would be utterly done. Relegation is sorted, the title is sorted, it's only the CL spots that are being competed over. The Europa League (and Conference!) are more trouble than they are worth.

Totally agree with you on all points. I'm fantasising - I know that horse has long since bolted, unfortunately.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 21 April, 2021, 11:12:39 am
It's strange, because it comes down to the way the sport is governed and run, and who has the power. There are various models across different sports, and I don't know if you could say that any of them are particularly good:

Football:
FIFA control the global game and the World Cup, but don't have very much cash.
UEFA control the european game, and the Champions League, so have oodles of cash.
National Leagues tend to be controlled by the clubs - some leagues have money, but not much power.
Clubs - loads of  money, frustrated by lack of power and variability of income streams.

Corruption - everywhere.

Cycling is worse, because it's run by the UCI, the power/money lies with ASO, and the teams are kinda fungible depending on raising funding from year to year. There's not all that much money about, in part because of all the fighting?
NFL is the opposite, in that the franchises own the league, and the whole thing runs as a sort of cartel, but without the ruling bodies getting in the way like football. Tons of money.
Rugby union varies massively from country to country, but there isn't all that much cash around, and I don't know if the club game breaks even anywhere.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: citoyen on 21 April, 2021, 11:23:08 am
I was watching I, Tonya the other night. Ice skating seems to be just as corrupt as any other sport.

Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 21 April, 2021, 11:37:23 am
I was watching I, Tonya the other night. Ice skating seems to be just as corrupt as any other sport.
Next you'll be telling us it's fake ice!
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: TimC on 21 April, 2021, 12:02:53 pm
Sport as business. The argument was over who runs the money-making elite of European football, as I understand it, and the American would-be invaders have been seen off. For now. The fans may be celebrating, but I don't see any moves to make Association Football any more approachable, affordable or available, so I'm not sure what they think they've won.

The Americans, following the model of their professional sports leagues, were looking to guarantee a predictable, steady, reliable (and, of course, huge) income stream with few risks. I don't believe for a minute that the European authorities haven't understood the benefits of the plan; the 'club' owners just need to find a way to cut those authorities into the deal. I'm sure they'll find that way sooner or later.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: citoyen on 21 April, 2021, 12:10:54 pm
The fans may be celebrating, but I don't see any moves to make Association Football any more approachable, affordable or available, so I'm not sure what they think they've won.

Quite. The hollowest of victories.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: pcolbeck on 21 April, 2021, 01:10:47 pm
The main problem with ESL idea was it removed jeopardy from the equation. If the teams are guaranteed a place in the league no matter what it takes all the tension out of the game.
The atmosphere of football is created by the fact that a team that doesn't get enough points is demoted and if they do really well they get promoted or get to play in Europe (whatever they call the competition at the time).

It's those matches where the teams at the bottom of a league are fighting to stay up or manage to beat the big teams that creates all the atmosphere and reasons to watch. West Broms 5-2 demolition of Chelsea early in the month was a thing of beauty to watch.

Demotion and promotion have real consequences in terms of the money available to teams as well. A league with a guaranteed places is just a series of demonstration matches with a pat on the back for the winners.

No the current setup isn't perfect and could be tweaked to make it better but the ESL idea just binned the basic premise of league football and was a horrible idea.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 21 April, 2021, 01:11:39 pm
Don't think that isn't lost on some of the noisiest people in this. Check out this statement from the people who put the flags on the Kop - is there anyone they don't go in on?
https://twitter.com/SpionKop1906/status/1384766329220120580/photo/1
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Wowbagger on 22 April, 2021, 07:26:08 am
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/22/esl-european-super-league-global-capitalism-football-tech-giants?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

A very neat piece by Larry Elliott how the ESL proposal is a metaphor for global capitalism.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Jaded on 23 April, 2021, 07:20:00 am
One thing the pandemic has shown is that, properly arranged, the lack of "Legacy Fans" at real matches is not an issue for TV watchers, as noise can be added for effect, seats covered up with wraps and there's no unpredictable sweaty chanting, or semi-naked fat bellies on display. 

I would imagine that the next step for the Billionaires and their money is to get rid of the unpredictability that comes from having players and managers. Maybe by replacing them with one or two video games players...
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 April, 2021, 07:59:31 am
I think that's already happened, in as far as watching other people play video games is now considered a sport in itself (which is presumably what you had in mind as well). The E-Sports Super League, yeah!
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Jaded on 23 April, 2021, 08:14:29 am
Yes, that formed part of the basis of my premise.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 23 April, 2021, 09:53:03 am
Here's someone who thinks it's all over. And that it's therefore all going to change. https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/super-league-premier-league-uefa-b1835595.html
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Wowbagger on 02 May, 2021, 10:59:31 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/may/02/manchester-united-fans-invade-old-trafford-pitch-during-glazer-out-protests

This latest development is a very interesting one - fans stopping their team playing in protest at the behaviour of the owners.

Relating to the number of fans who broke into the ground - the article says "around 100", but the first picture there of the fans on the pitch gives me the impression that there are rather more than 100 there.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: De Sisti on 03 May, 2021, 09:31:38 am

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/may/02/manchester-united-fans-invade-old-trafford-pitch-during-glazer-out-protests (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/may/02/manchester-united-fans-invade-old-trafford-pitch-during-glazer-out-protests)

This latest development is a very interesting one - fans stopping their team playing in protest at the behaviour of the owners.

Relating to the number of fans who broke into the ground - the article says "around 100", but the first picture there of the fans on the pitch gives me the impression that there are rather more than 100 there.
For a stadium that wasn't allowed to be open for fans to watch a football match, one has to wonder
how they were allowed to gain entrance and get onto the pitch. Where were the police (to beat up
and arrest the crowd) when you need them. :-D 

The cops seem to think it's ok to duff up defenseless women on a protest though. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 03 May, 2021, 09:41:04 am

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/may/02/manchester-united-fans-invade-old-trafford-pitch-during-glazer-out-protests (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/may/02/manchester-united-fans-invade-old-trafford-pitch-during-glazer-out-protests)

This latest development is a very interesting one - fans stopping their team playing in protest at the behaviour of the owners.

Relating to the number of fans who broke into the ground - the article says "around 100", but the first picture there of the fans on the pitch gives me the impression that there are rather more than 100 there.
For a stadium that wasn't allowed to be open for fans to watch a football match, one has to wonder
how they were allowed to gain entrance and get onto the pitch. Where were the police (to beat up
and arrest the crowd) when you need them. :-D 

The cops seem to think it's ok to duff up defenseless women on a protest though. Just sayin'.
The police aren't there to protect a stadium. There were a large number of stewards, but the crowd broke in through a set of barriers thanks to force of numbers.

In terms of the actual protest - it was much more of an anti-Glazer protest than an anti-super league one. The Glazers might be the worst owners in the premier league, it's only the giant Utd commercial income that has kept their heads above water paying the interest that they landed on the club. They still have >500m of debt, having paid over £1bn in financing costs since the Glazers arrived. They also take millions in dividends and payments out of the club every year.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: De Sisti on 03 May, 2021, 11:08:54 am
The police aren't there to protect a stadium. There were a large number of stewards, but the crowd broke in through a set of barriers thanks to force of numbers.
The was a large gathering of people, not keeping their distance from one another. The police, who are in attendance at all Premier League matches, had the legal power to disperse the crowd (who may or may not have had permission to gather).
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: DuncanM on 03 May, 2021, 01:22:40 pm
The police aren't there to protect a stadium. There were a large number of stewards, but the crowd broke in through a set of barriers thanks to force of numbers.
The was a large gathering of people, not keeping their distance from one another. The police, who are in attendance at all Premier League matches, had the legal power to disperse the crowd (who may or may not have had permission to gather).
Do they show up (in significant numbers) at all matches even when there's not supposed to be crowds?
I think the answer is actually that the police were where the majority of the crowd was, but a small(er) number were round the back breaking in at the "Munich" entrance.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Jaded on 03 May, 2021, 01:26:18 pm
I very much doubt that there are the usual number of police and stewards at football grounds when there are no spectators.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: PeteB99 on 03 May, 2021, 04:13:51 pm
The match day stewards are mostly volunteers whose function is to assist in the safe running of the stadium, things like manning entrance and exit gates, supervising stairwells, guarding access to non public parts of the stadium and reporting any problems to the stadium control room. They're not trained or equipped for riot control that's a police responsibility.

The stadium license issued by the local authority probably specifies a minimum number of staff to be present if the stadium is open to the public and I would think yesterdays match would qualify for that.
Title: Re: European Super League
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 28 May, 2021, 06:36:47 pm
Quote
There have been reports that Chelsea’s U-turn was prompted by a telephone call from Russian president Vladimir Putin to his compatriot Roman Abramovich, the billionaire who owns the London club. Some media outlets have even suggested that Putin declared a super league would be “against the spirit of the fatherland”.
https://theconversation.com/champions-league-final-2021-a-game-of-two-sides-powered-by-gas-and-oil-160939