Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Further and Faster => Topic started by: bludger on 15 August, 2019, 11:20:43 am
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I'm on the market for a training plan - I've really struggled to source plans from British Cycling (https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge/training-plans), as everything seems geared around short form racing. I don't really want to start paying for a plan if a good resource is available elsewhere, especially as British Rowing used to make very good ones available.
Diet I can take care of.
My situation is that I currently place mid pack in Cat 4 crit races and cyclocross, I'm about 10-15 kg overweight, and have until next May to get down to 80-85 kg, get fast enough to meaningfully participate in Race Around the Netherlands next May. In the meantime I will also be doing RRTY, and some cyclocross, though the cyclocross is mostly just for fun. I have a turbo trainer I can use for intervals, and I have a heartrate monitor I can use for UT2. A power meter is not within my budget at this point.
I am a bit frustrated by how difficult it seems to find a decent training plan online. All the usual resources tell me to go and pay for a coach, telling me obvious stuff like 'combine long sessions with intervals' without pointing to any actual schemes. Any pointers would be appreciated.
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I've been watching some videos on You Tube by Dylan Johnson. If you can get past the spotty-kid look, he seems to know a thing or two about structured training, and isn't afraid to share some training block specifics. Most of his racing looks to be off-road endurance.
A lot of the actual plans that work are hidden behind paywalls for good reason - they're people's intellectual property.
I'm working on the assumption that I'll have to write my own plans, based on Joe Friel's book and the fact that plans are mostly (always?) based around a 7 day week, and that doesn't really work for me as I'm pushing 60 and need more in the way of recovery. There are some ready-made plans on TrainingPeaks for endurance, but they can be quite spendy, and I think taking the principles offered by the likes of Joe Friel, and Dylan Johnson and rolling my own might well be the way to go.
ETA: I got put onto Dylan Johnson when I watched his video where he rips apart the plans/workouts on Zwift.
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As well as the fitness, don't forget to train the soft skills. These include efficient bivvying, and finding food on the route (Hint: RatN has a 200km leg with buggerall food available).
I'd also suggest training your stomach is important.
The climbing on RatN is all at the end, yes there's only 5000m of climb in 1900km, but about 4000m of it is in a single 90km stretch. Them limburg hills are brutal, one of them is 22%. Get some practice on the steepest hills you can find. They are short, sharp, and punchy, But they surprise a lot of people.
Finally for RatN, expect headwinds, so train for them, get comfortable slogging into a headwind for a couple of hours, it'll come as less of a shock when you turn left at the google datacentre that way.
As for how to train for ultraendurance, if you come up with an answer, let me know. I want to try the TCR again next year, I've got 49 weeks to lose 20kg, and get fit...
J
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I'm not convinced that I will change much for next year. For the last 5 years I have mixed TTs and audax with some level of success.
When I started with a coach 3 years ago he introduced a lot more threshold/high intensity work, made me work harder on my commutes, but left the long weekend rides largely unchanged. During the Winter I was doing structured work on the turbo 3 days a week, commuting, and doing one long ride - 5-6hrs every weekend. I believe that the turbo work made the biggest difference as my cruising/audax pace is significantly faster.
I'm still racing to the end of Sep, but will then break from the structured work until, probably, January when I will have 4 months before RAtN. Last year I put on half a stone on my break but that did include 10 days in Italy without a bike.
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I like TrainerRoad and its training plans. But they recently increased their pricing to $20 / month which would make me look for other options if I was starting out.
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I'm on the market for a training plan - I've really struggled to source plans from British Cycling (https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge/training-plans), as everything seems geared around short form racing. I don't really want to start paying for a plan if a good resource is available elsewhere, especially as British Rowing used to make very good ones available.
Do the British Rowing plans cover ultra events?!? [nothing is impossible ... but I reckon rowers are mostly focused on much shorter events than cyclists. Generally.]
I don't have a pure answer to your question, but there is a view that in physiological terms, training for long-ish rides is pretty much the right training for 600mile+ rides.
Idai - of Elliptigo and fasted riding fame - wrote about this somewhere, I think.
You want legs that are well equipped for 6-8 hilly hours. Then you need to practice/test the logistical stuff that becomes more important on the multi-day stuff - fuelling, pacing, drink, equipment etc etc ...
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I like TrainerRoad and its training plans. But they recently increased their pricing to $20 / month which would make me look for other options if I was starting out.
If you stick with them then the price you pay is supposed to stay. I am paying $99 per year. Have to say I think that’s incredible value (even with the pound tanking). I also think it’s a mistake if it results in inflating prices for new users to fund development.
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Yes, good strategy to keep your loyal customers. I'm also still paying the $99 / year.
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I'm on the market for a training plan - I've really struggled to source plans from British Cycling (https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/knowledge/training-plans), as everything seems geared around short form racing. I don't really want to start paying for a plan if a good resource is available elsewhere, especially as British Rowing used to make very good ones available.
Do the British Rowing plans cover ultra events?!? [nothing is impossible ... but I reckon rowers are mostly focused on much shorter events than cyclists. Generally.]
Unfortunately it seems it's no longer available, but Concept 2 and British Rowing released these plans for their 'great row' event a few years ago. The marathon one was very good.
https://www.docdroid.net/0cjvye5/the-great-row-training-plan.pdf
Recommended. If you can stomach long ergs that is!
Cheers for the suggestions everyone.
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https://www.amazon.co.uk/Long-Distance-Cyclists-Handbook/dp/0713668326
Simon Doughty's book was my resource as a developing Audax rider.
There are two things I added to this:
1) a structured weight training program - through my local gym, to build up leg, back and particularly leg-back connective strength so that I was (and am still able) to keep a stable power transmission
2) time trials (50 and 100 miles) to have the mental discipline to keep going on relatively boring terrain at a relatively high speed.
Once I've got used to riding 200km, the extra distance hasn't been about leg strength, watts, but about two things - the head (keeping going mentally) and the stomach (finding a feeding strategy that works). Simon's book helps a lot with that, but the best way is to find what works out personally. I've found pretty much everything that's been written about eating on long distance rides to be laughable, as after 8 - 12 hours most people have to learn what works, so putting in a couple of 300k or 400k events in the rest of this year would help, if you haven't already worked out what food works.
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The reason coaches get a lot of business from mere mortals is precisely a result of what you’ve found. Ie, it’s quite difficult to find structured plans for free on the internet.
I have used a coach on and off for the last few years and it is without doubt the best way to get fitter if you’re time crunched. It is generally accepted that most people’s hard rides aren’t hard enough and easy rides not easy enough. I generally did 3-4 one hour turbo sessions a week and then a steady 3 hour ride at weekends. The hard sessions were generally something like: 10 minute warm up, interval sets for 20 minutes (3 or 5 minute efforts with 1-2 minutes in between), rest for a bit, another 20 minutes of intervals and then a cool down. All sessions like this done on a turbo for clinical efficiency. Not fun, but over winter it works well for me. Also has the bonus that my wife knows I am unlikely to be knocked off my bike if it’s stationary in the garage....
Having a coach also helps with motivation. I have the will power of a crack addict and knowing that someone will be looking my numbers over the next day helps make sure I wander to the garage in the snow to get my session in.
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So since I've actually gone and booked myself into one of these things, I have gone and made the effort of coming up with an outline training programme. I am doing something somewhat controversial in not actually doing any 'cycling' training per se in it (lol). It is exclusively rowing (ergometer) and weights.
The thinking behind this is:
*One of my biggest problems is being too fat. Lifting weights in a structured programme has worked for me in losing fat very effectively before.
*Rowing machines give very good and precise data feedback
*I believe being strong will make me faster and just as crucially, more resistant to wearing-down and injury. The onus on my training is having the stamina to go the difference, not go toe-to-toe with the local choppers on the Hoggenberg.
*It's something I can really stick to and track results from. I also know how to do it quite comfortably.
*I believe doing lots of cycling puts me at risk of injury from putting all the 'aggro' on my knees and ankles. By contrast I can row for hours and hours and hours without problems, and I am of the view it is highly complementary to making one a good 'all rounder'. There is no 'bike fit' equivalent with rowing, you just put your feet on the machine in the right place and plug away.
*I will be riding the bike every day to work and back, and at weekends I'll be doing actual long rides, audaxes, etc.
(https://i.imgur.com/mpCsTx7.png)
It's not a long event (or even technically race), it's about 900 km, but it should give some good feedback on whether this is a working system or not.
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Some of the training plans for Ironman distance triathlons might be good. Joe Friels triathlete training bible is great.
I have used it as the basis for preparing for its intended triathlons but also for multi day running and multi day cycling events.
I used to row a lot and have an ergo down in the cellar and use it a bit but I don’t think I would use it as my main endurance training. I would be concerned it is the wrong cadence.
In upping my cycling distance last year it was ancillary parts that struggled in the beginning - wrists, neck, back, ankles before they became adapted.
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I've been watching some videos on You Tube by Dylan Johnson. If you can get past the spotty-kid look, he seems to know a thing or two about structured training, and isn't afraid to share some training block specifics. Most of his racing looks to be off-road endurance.
A lot of the actual plans that work are hidden behind paywalls for good reason - they're people's intellectual property.
I'm working on the assumption that I'll have to write my own plans, based on Joe Friel's book and the fact that plans are mostly (always?) based around a 7 day week, and that doesn't really work for me as I'm pushing 60 and need more in the way of recovery. There are some ready-made plans on TrainingPeaks for endurance, but they can be quite spendy, and I think taking the principles offered by the likes of Joe Friel, and Dylan Johnson and rolling my own might well be the way to go.
ETA: I got put onto Dylan Johnson when I watched his video where he rips apart the plans/workouts on Zwift.
If you mean Fast after 50 that's exactly how I built my initial turbo workouts back in 2018. What I like about it is the emphasis on the priority of workouts during a training phase. Make sure you cover the priority workouts first and if real stuff gets in the way drop the low priority stuff. Also no dictation on the day to do a workout. So if I want to delay a workout a day or from morning to evening no issues.
I did look at some of the paid training plans this year but they are too prescriptive and the workouts overly complex. So I've stuck with simple sets of intervals. Trying more polarised this year. So I've dropped the threshold and am doing long aerobic threshold and short vO2 Max based intervals. Trying to stick close to 80 / 20 in terms of proportion. So far so good with improvements this past 5 weeks. Plus my workout choices are even simpler than past two years.
Tedx talk on polarised by Stephen Seiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MALsI0mJ09I
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Tedx talk on polarised by Stephen Seiler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MALsI0mJ09I
Not sure this is relevant to anyone other than pros.
He's suggesting 90-95% of training in his "green" zone (equating to HR zones 2&3?). That would maybe make sense for someone training several hours a day (i.e. a pro). In fact I'm not sure how a pro could train any other way without burning out PDQ.
But for mortals with jobs, lives, etc who have maybe 3 hours a week, that would equate to 2h40m at "green" (i.e. really very easy work) and at the most 20m high intensity. I'm pretty sure that if I restricted myself to this type of training my form would dip.
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He has 3 zones.
Zone 1 is below LT1, which is essentially the sort of pace you can ride at all day.
Zone 2 is LT1-LT2 (basically FTP), which is when it starts getting hard.
Zone 3 is above threshold.
He wants you to ride in Zone 1 for 80% of the time, and Zone 3 for 20%. Avoid Zone 2.
This is great for professionals who have a very small Zone 2 because they have raised LT1 with a huge training volume. It might not be so good for regular humans, for whom LT1 is a relatively low %age of FTP - it means spending hours and hours doing very low W. If you have the time and patience, then maybe it can work for you...
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It's been validated down to recreational cyclists doing about 5-8 hours a week. Anyway I've seen good gains in my first five weeks of trying it, so will see where it leads. Like all of this training malarkey, do what works for you. More than one way to skin a cat,
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It's been validated down to recreational cyclists doing about 5-8 hours a week. Anyway I've seen good gains in my first five weeks of trying it, so will see where it leads. Like all of this training malarkey, do what works for you. More than one way to skin a cat,
Absolutely. I doubt it would do much when you get down to low volume (a few 1 hour rides a week), but if you can muster 8 hours you are probably not going to be able to do all of that at high intensity anyway. Everyone says that most people make the easy days too hard and the hard days too easy, and this is aimed at stopping both sides of that issue.
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Agreed but if you’re down to just a few one hour rides a week you are not really training for ultra endurance.
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I got myself on an 80/20 kind of programme, and although the 80 can feel pretty dull, the 20 is damn hard. My FTP has shown steady progress which is OK by me. This time last year it didn't, for whatever reason, and I gave up on the whole season at that point. Here's hoping that doesn't happen again ::-).
I still find myself doing long hard sessions, which is not allowed on 80/20; it just feels wrong to dial it back when you're feeling strong and want to hammer it.
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A) 5 x 20mins at way over ftp during the week, and a few hours pootling round the countryside at the weekend. 7 hours total.
Or
B) 7 x 1hr at ftp.
Option A is much more enjoyable and for works better for me... and you can double or quadruple it if you want.
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Option A is only "polarised" if your pootling doesn't include any efforts. I find it difficult to ride slow enough outside, especially if there are hills (too hard up, too easy down). This is probably a function of too large a gap between LT1 and LT2 (which could be trained if I were so inclined and had the time) and mentality - I like working hard up hills and struggle to ride deliberately within myself.
Option B would be loony. The usual alternative to polarized isn't destroy yourself every day - it's sweetspot. A TR sweetspot plan would involve 1 hour of VO2 max intervals, 1 hour of sweetspot (definitions differ, but around 85-95% of FTP) intervals, and 1-2 hours of aerobic/tempo. If you move to a medium volume plan it adds more aerobic work, as adding extra hard stuff blunts your ability to follow the plan. This differs from the polarized model in that you spend a significant portion of your time in Zone 2, where polarized says you shouldn't go.
I'm not necessarily advocating either - I'm sure a sensible plan can be built using whatever approach you like. I'm just trying to say why I think polarized wouldn't work for me...
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I'm training for one 1900k race in May and a 2600k race in July. I've done 10,000+ miles per year for the last nine and 12,500 last year so my base is fine.
I commute every day totalling circa 1h45m - all in endurance zone by HR.
Tue & Thu - evening turbo session 60-75mins variable depending on what is set by coach but I'd call them 'hard' efforts
Wed - lunchtime ride - 60 mins
Sat - road ride 5-6hrs hilly - this is the bit I really need to work on this year after racing on a lot of flat roads.
Sun - 2hrs turbo - usually tempo efforts like 6 * 10 mins with some padding in the endurance zone.
Something like 18-20hrs per week.
I'll up the weekend rides into Mar/Apr and aim to do some double ride weekends such as the Hard Boiled/Dorset Coast double.
I do one pilates class a week and stretching 3-4 times per week. My hip mobility remains poor. Weight is a bit higher than this time last year but that's not a bad thing.
I suspect at this work rate I will be a little undercooked for RAtN and would like to be at peak for early July.
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https://www.jssm.org/mob/researchjssm-18-708.xml
POLARIZED AND PYRAMIDAL TRAINING INTENSITY DISTRIBUTION: RELATIONSHIP WITH A HALF-IRONMAN DISTANCE TRIATHLON COMPETITION
Key Points
POL and PYR training distributions showed a significant positive effect on the performance of the triathletes in the three segments.
Training intensity in zone 2 was related with a better performance on a half-Ironman race in recreational triathletes.
According to our results, coaches should not discard training time in zone 2 in recreational triathletes to train a Half-Ironman race.
Pyramidal training isn't sweet-spot, though. Sweet-spot based plans spend more time in zone 2 and less in zone 1 than a pyramidal approach. You can only take this approach so far in terms of volume per week.
In 2015 for PBP I did the TrainerRoad thing. I did my fastest PBP, on fixed. In 2019 I did lots of zone 1 and I was slower and had a lower FTP. I am also pretty sure that 4 years of rowing did not help.
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*I believe doing lots of cycling puts me at risk of injury from putting all the 'aggro' on my knees and ankles. By contrast I can row for hours and hours and hours without problems, and I am of the view it is highly complementary to making one a good 'all rounder'. There is no 'bike fit' equivalent with rowing, you just put your feet on the machine in the right place and plug away.
The idea is that doing a lot of cycling will strengthen those part of your body that you do need for cycling, such as the ones you mention.
If you fail to do lots of cycling and row instead, what is going to happen is that you will get injured during the event, as opposed to before the event
It seems a bit odd and I have never heard of a Tour de France contender that trains by rowing rather than cycling, but you never know, you might set the next big thing in training... ::-)
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*I believe doing lots of cycling puts me at risk of injury from putting all the 'aggro' on my knees and ankles. By contrast I can row for hours and hours and hours without problems, and I am of the view it is highly complementary to making one a good 'all rounder'. There is no 'bike fit' equivalent with rowing, you just put your feet on the machine in the right place and plug away.
The idea is that doing a lot of cycling will strengthen those part of your body that you do need for cycling, such as the ones you mention.
If you fail to do lots of cycling and row instead, what is going to happen is that you will get injured during the event, as opposed to before the event
It seems a bit odd and I have never heard of a Tour de France contender that trains by rowing rather than cycling, but you never know, you might set the next big thing in training... ::-)
Rebecca Romero was a world champion at rowing then track cycling only 2 years apart, ironically changing from rowing to cycling because of persistent injuries.
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*I believe doing lots of cycling puts me at risk of injury from putting all the 'aggro' on my knees and ankles. By contrast I can row for hours and hours and hours without problems, and I am of the view it is highly complementary to making one a good 'all rounder'. There is no 'bike fit' equivalent with rowing, you just put your feet on the machine in the right place and plug away.
The idea is that doing a lot of cycling will strengthen those part of your body that you do need for cycling, such as the ones you mention.
If you fail to do lots of cycling and row instead, what is going to happen is that you will get injured during the event, as opposed to before the event
It seems a bit odd and I have never heard of a Tour de France contender that trains by rowing rather than cycling, but you never know, you might set the next big thing in training... ::-)
Rebecca Romero was a world champion at rowing then track cycling only 2 years apart, ironically changing from rowing to cycling because of persistent injuries.
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There's a video about Damir Martin (two time Olympic Silver Medallist single sculler) and in this he describes his aerobic base training - he uses a bicycle, largely to protect his back.
I would not be surprised if Romero was already doing a lot of cycling miles as a rower before she switched.
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*I believe doing lots of cycling puts me at risk of injury from putting all the 'aggro' on my knees and ankles. By contrast I can row for hours and hours and hours without problems, and I am of the view it is highly complementary to making one a good 'all rounder'. There is no 'bike fit' equivalent with rowing, you just put your feet on the machine in the right place and plug away.
The idea is that doing a lot of cycling will strengthen those part of your body that you do need for cycling, such as the ones you mention.
If you fail to do lots of cycling and row instead, what is going to happen is that you will get injured during the event, as opposed to before the event
It seems a bit odd and I have never heard of a Tour de France contender that trains by rowing rather than cycling, but you never know, you might set the next big thing in training... ::-)
Rebecca Romero was a world champion at rowing then track cycling only 2 years apart, ironically changing from rowing to cycling because of persistent injuries.
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There are similarities... they are both aerobic sports... so you can in principle start a career with one and finish with the other... pretty sure she trained on the track ahead of competition, rather than on a boat though
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If you've got a huge VO2max (as most athletic Olympians do) then you're going to do well at lots of aerobic sports. The next factor is build. A swimmer is going to make a poor runner due to the unnecessary bulky torso/arms. A long distance runner is going to make a poor sprint cyclist, etc. The adaptation from rowing to cycling doesn't take too long and you can go either way it seems.
Cross training is nothing new though, the majority of the time it's used because the primary sport is self limiting in terms of hours. Right now I can run for about 3 hours a week, once I'm back into it and have built up I can run anything up to 10 hours per week, but in the mean time I can augment my 3 hours of running with a few hours of swimming and a load of hours cycling, then throw in some gym work for strength and core. But the end goal will be to increase my weekly running hours as that (if done carefully) will be the best thing for avoiding running injuries.
The improved cardio vascular fitness from cross training is useful, but it's just there because doing too many hours of your primary sport per week would lead to overtraining or injury.
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I haven't seen any cyclists convert to rowing (at high level I mean); are there some high-profile examples I've missed?
( We have at least 2 ex-GB rowers hoovering up local cycling trophies round these parts! )
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Hamish Bond is probably a high profile guy in rowing - he's half of the Kiwi pair, the most successful rowing team in Olympic history as far as I know. He took a break the other year to do time trialling. He went back to rowing, now in an 8+. I think they'll get gold in Tokyo.
Did my third session in the plan today. I'm definitely buzzed from it but I'm not aching or whatever. I am glad I'm taking a week to 'pre load' before really getting going.
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I haven't seen any cyclists convert to rowing (at high level I mean); are there some high-profile examples I've missed?
( We have at least 2 ex-GB rowers hoovering up local cycling trophies round these parts! )
There was that Bradley Wiggins chap who was quite good at cycling and recently had a bash at rowing but didn’t quite make it.
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I was actually there, I watched it happen. Poor guy.
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I haven't seen any cyclists convert to rowing (at high level I mean); are there some high-profile examples I've missed?
( We have at least 2 ex-GB rowers hoovering up local cycling trophies round these parts! )
I can see a few reasons... pro cycling provides a relatively lucrative career, compared with the almost zero money at pretty much any level in rowing, therefore it is more likely for rowers to get fed up with the long hours of training than for cyclists.
Outside of the top end athletes, there is also an entry barrier to rowing... you need to live close to a river where it is practiced, you need to join a club, you need to learn the technique, which is anything but trivial and finally you have to be good enough to make a team.
Compare that with cycling, where you can buy a bike and enter a race or time trial the day after
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About 2 weeks into the programme.
(https://i.imgur.com/0OlPf5s.png)
Going for a proper ride on Sunday, obviously it's too early to judge the effectiveness of a programme (for me 3 months is the minimum) but we'll see what happens.
Weights later today. I'm using an ABA format 3x a week. One week is ABA, the next is BAB etc.
A:
3*5 squat
3*5 bench
1*5 deadlift
3* chinups to failure (so far I can do one...)
B: 3*5 squat
3*5 press (standing)
1*5 dead lift (once this starts getting too hard I'm going to move to 2*3 power cleans)
3* chinups to failure
Today is B.
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Your weights scheme reminds me of Stronglifts 5x5 (https://stronglifts.com/5x5/) Do you, or anyone else, have experience with this as a way to increase strength for cycling?
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Well spotted, it's actually an adaptation of Starting Strength https://startingstrength.com/get-started/programs
My experience has been more with rowing. I don't really believe in 'strength for xyz', strong is strong in my book, whether you're riding bikes, rowing boats, moving hay with a pitchfork or whatever else. Especially when my emphasis is as much on preventing knackered joints and sinews etc as it is being fast.
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strong is strong in my book, whether you're riding bikes, rowing boats, moving hay with a pitchfork or whatever else.
Don't tell those bodybuilders they could make more money by winning the Tour de France... :thumbsup:
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Bodybuilders don't really train for strength per se, rather they use special programmes (and, er, other 'methods'....) to stimulate hypertrophy i.e. to get huge, and then highly aggressive fat loss methods which just sound positively awful to endure. One of the most harrowing things I've ever read is https://startingstrength.com/article/how_to_lose_40_lb_of_fat_in_63_days , which just sounds like my idea of being in hell.
“I took weekly pictures and sent them to Rich. He would say, keep going, you can do it. I’d be like, ‘Really?’ Rich gave me three cheat meals over the course of nine weeks. This means that I could eat whatever I wanted to, for one single hour. I used to have food fantasies leading up to the cheat meal: would I have pizza and doughnuts? Vanilla cream from McMillan’s Bakery? I’d tell the lady behind the counter, don’t wrap them, just hand them to me in a box. My 6-year old son and I would eat them in the parking lot, and get covered in powdered sugar when we were done. Then I would get pissed off because I would get full so fast that I would have to stop eating before I threw up. I lived for those cheat hours.
....
“In addition, I added in red cabbage. Raw red cabbage with Splenda and cinnamon sprinkled on top. Awesome. I needed that crunch, and broccoli didn’t do it. Cabbage did the trick. My wife would make Tilapia fish for me for my last food meal of the day. I started counting the days down until the show like a prisoner within weeks of release. I was miserable, but I knew that hell or high water, I was going to Florida. Rich would text me encouraging messages. The one that I remember most was him texting, “You are tougher than the process.” That spurred me on even more. I mean, no matter how hungry or tired you are, you just do it, man. You stop at Dunkin’ Donuts at night and get a triple espresso and then you eat some fish and then start pedaling that damn bike. You aren’t living in a garbage dump in India with your whole family wondering if you will ever eat again. You chose to do this stupid thing, so just do it. And you do – you start pedaling and pretty soon that hour is done and then the shower is done and the next morning comes and you are pedaling again. It seems never ending.”
Obviously a bodybuilder will be a strong person but you can be hugely strong without actually being super big by any stretch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QpyC5P1E0E
If these guys rode bikes, they would be fast.
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Well spotted, it's actually an adaptation of Starting Strength https://startingstrength.com/get-started/programs
My experience has been more with rowing. I don't really believe in 'strength for xyz', strong is strong in my book, whether you're riding bikes, rowing boats, moving hay with a pitchfork or whatever else. Especially when my emphasis is as much on preventing knackered joints and sinews etc as it is being fast.
Don't use words like strong or strength places like the TT forum. I good cyclist is fit not strong. It's an aerobic sport.
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A sledge dog has a VO2 max of around 250 ml/min kg, which is roughly three times as high as a fully doped Tour de France winner... and there is no way the latter can pull a sledge anywhere near as far or fast...
Yet, if you put the Siberian Husky on a bike, he might turn out to be quite useless at it
I would stick to training on a bicycle if that's what you need for your race
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People used to be the same about soldiering and rowing. Barbell strength training was scoffed at, weighted marching and rowing boats only was the order of the day.
Now the good programmes have a massive focus on strength training. There's even a special 'mobile gym' developed for the US special forces that folds up into a container for deployment to combat zones. https://deployedresources.com/equipment/gyms/containerized-gym-unit/
Cycling has been historically very behind the curve on how to effectively train. MTB and track are probably the exceptions, both of which are well known for their emphasis on off-bike training. See e.g. Chris Hoy's huge focus on barbell training. https://www.coachmag.co.uk/leg-workouts/7638/how-british-track-cycling-superstar-jason-kenny-trains-his-legs
All too common from the long distance sorts are recurrent injuries which I am convinced stem from being too weak. For example not having the strength to stay on the bike, for days on end, with knee and shoulder joints worn out from bearing all the aggro. We'll see how the programme goes.
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Cycling has been historically very behind the curve on how to effectively train. MTB and track are probably the exceptions, both of which are well known for their emphasis on off-bike training. See e.g. Chris Hoy's huge focus on barbell training.
You realise that what Chris Hoy did has nothing in common with the kind of cycling you want to do...
Even by the loose definitions of "aerobic" used by BC track team (anything over 1 minute), sprint is not aerobic.
He trained to put down 2,000 Watt for 10 seconds, you want to put down 150-200 watt for a few days...
Chris Hoy wouldn't have stood a chance to get to the sprint of a road race, he would have been dropped miles earlier
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I reckon Hoy would be a good time triallist. But see also boxing. Boxing is an aerobic sport, we all know that it's all about wearing the other guy down over a long series of rounds, they too do a ton of not-punching-people training.
And of course from my own pre-cycling background, with rowing races are either about 20 mins long for 5k heads or 6-7 mins long for 2k regattas. Strength training outside of boats is a proven winner. Broadly in the boat race it's the heaviest crew that wins.
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I would be surprised if the same training regime that works 10 seconds or for 6 or 7 minutes will work 72 hours. I would also say your weights regime seems rather skewed to upper body. There is definitely a big overlap between rowing and track cycling (massive quads). Endurance events (cycling and running) seem to favour individuals with lower bmi.
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Bonds doing road TT not track
https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/119529663/rower-hamish-bond-wins-time-trial-after-making-surprise-return-to-cycling
Doing TTing as a side hobby and beating world tour pros lol, weighing in at 93 kg
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I reckon Hoy would be a good time triallist.
Based on what?
I'd be surprised if he can do a sub 24 minute 10 mile, even with all the gear.
Have you ever seen sprinters training? A 1 hour training session on the track is made out of a lot of chatting and banter in between a number of savage short efforts... 2-3 laps, then back to laughing and banter...
Incidentally, it is the same as track and field sprinters... a lot of laughing and joking around, followed by a small number of short violent bursts...
Basically, it is the exact opposite of what makes for good time trialling... and that is even before we look at the numbers... I am pretty sure Hoy's VO2 max is similar to that of an average club rider. Time trialling is pretty much all down to having a huge VO2 max, same as rowing, cross country skiing etc...
That doesn't mean that if you train on a Concept 2 you will do a sub 20 minute 10 mile TT
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I meant that he'd have to train for it but I expect with a 12 week 'conversion course' he'd be a speedy guy indeed.
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I meant that he'd have to train for it but I expect with a 12 week 'conversion course' he'd be a speedy guy indeed.
I think you are wrong... he will be very average... of course that depends what speedy means to you. Anything above 20 min is nothing special for someone who is an athlete.
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Bonds doing road TT not track
https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/119529663/rower-hamish-bond-wins-time-trial-after-making-surprise-return-to-cycling
Doing TTing as a side hobby and beating world tour pros lol, weighing in at 93 kg
It is impressive, though to be fair nz population is about the same as Birmingham, he won it in 2018 too when he was a cyclist before he was a rower. The world tour rider he beat is58kg I can imagine he is more of gc rider.
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A few points here.
Hamish Bond has a big engine and chose to specialise in TT. He was heavily aero optimised and spent a huge amount of time with Aerocoach dialling his position in. Most pros don’t spend anywhere near enough time on this so there were a lot of gains there. In UK TTs he didn’t exactly wipe the floor with opposition.
On weight, it’s fine being 90+ kgs in flat TTs when you push a huge amount of power. This is a thread about ultra racing, though. Imagine lugging those 90kgs up and down hills for 10 days. James Hayden runs low 70kgs which is heavier than when he was a junior road racer, but optimal for what he does.
I got myself down to 60kgs the last few years but will run a bit heavier this year as I need some reserves.
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And of course, resistance training is very good for you overall, not just in niche things like riding a bike.
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As well as Hamish Bond being someone who spent an entire year trying to be the best possible TTer he could be (aiming at Commonwealths before returning to rowing), George Bennet is a pure climber. He also had major surgery this off season: https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/george-bennett-ive-essentially-had-three-ribs-removed/
Fundamentally though, there is a level of strength beyond which you will not improve your on-bike performance. Here is a blog that tries to estimate that level of strength for the different cycling disciplines: https://blog.trainerroad.com/coach-chads-strength-training-recommendations-for-cyclists/
Even Mark Riptoe says that if you want to be a competitive cyclist (or runner), you shouldn't follow his plans:
https://startingstrength.com/article/why-you-should-not-be-running
Quite literally, the more you run, the better you are at running and the worse you are at being strong.
Your training regime may make you a more rounded athlete, and it might make you more robust than someone who spends all their time on a bike. In ultra racing, robustness is going to help to ensure you finish the event, but if it involves adding mass that doesn't help you pedal your bike or stay on your bike, then it's going to make you slower. If your training regime is aimed at increasing your chances of finishing, and you accept the trade off of increasing the time you take is your aim, I see nothing wrong with your plan. If you want to go as fast as possible for an ultra event, I'd spend more time on the bike, and less time in the weight room.
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A more nuanced understanding of rippetoes programming methods can be gleaned from http://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/mark-rippetoe-q-and-a/23687-basic-barbell-training-endurance-athletes.html where he advises 2 days under the bar (i.e. squatting) a week for 'committed endurance athletes'.
I would include 2x/week under the bar: 1. squat, deadlift, and chins 2. squat, clean, press.
Which is what I will eventually progress to after a few months. You can DL for every workout for a while. I'll stick with 3*/week throughout this training block for sure though.
the vast majority of them [cyclists] will not do anything that does not involve the recreational activity itself. They are not interested in improved performance in the sense that a competitive athlete is, and for that reason it is usually pointless to try to make them train outside their primary activity."
Quoted without comment ;D
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The quote about 2 days under the bar was aimed at someone asking about rowing.
I lift. I think it will improve my CX performance, but it will also help me be a more rounded human and protect my bones. If I hit the suggested level, I will go into maintenance mode and apply the time elsewhere. Were I planning on racing for days at a time, I would be paying more attention to coaches of pro cyclists than of Mark Riptoe.
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The ability to work a muscle for days on end continuously is almost certainly a mixture of mitochondrial increase, FFA adaptation, fibre bypertrophy and the Number of muscle fibres which allows you to switch off more muscle fibres to allow them to rest.
I think specific weight training is a seriously sensible idea. Just because people do not generally do it is no reason to say it will not work. Most “sports science” and coaching has about as much scientific basis as Gwyneth Paltrow and her vaginal eggs. That is, a lot of endorsement but no randomised for troller trials with adequate power and proper outcome measures.
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It isn't even just about 'moving the legs', one of my big worries is getting the likes of shermer's neck. I'm hoping that being able to dead lift good amounts of heavy things, coupled with the pressing movements and the chin ups might put me in good stead too.
Too often people think cycling is a 'legs sport', for my money it's just as important to have the whole-body strength to be on the handlebars with minimal aching and paining from the other half too. He doesn't go into it but JMH mentions dead lifts and much else as being crucial to preventing SN. https://www.jamesmarkhayden.uk/stories/shermers-neck-and-how-i-dealt-with-it
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He doesn't go into it but JMH mentions dead lifts and much else as being crucial to preventing SN. https://www.jamesmarkhayden.uk/stories/shermers-neck-and-how-i-dealt-with-it
Actually what he says (my bold) in the linked article is
“You don’t need to be doing bicep curls, butt planks, deadlifts, hollow body holds or kettlebell movements“
I suffered Shermer’s Neck on WAWA 2016 at 1850km, eventually retiring at just over 2,000km and just over 100km left as I could not ride safely, with a lack of forward vision. I wasn’t the only one on WAWA struggling with Shermer’s but I was the only one it came on early enough and deteriorated enough that I had to stop. About 10% of the field were affected.
Body weight exercises
Neck stretches
Swimming
General all over strength conditioning have helped me. IMO. Bear in mind my longest ride since 2016 is 1,000km where even before conditioning I never had issues. But I would say you do not need to do anything beyond body weight stuff for resilience.
There’s also changes I made on the road bike to ensure my neck was better aligned with the body when riding to reduce the stress it’s under. The faster you can ride and more time off the bike the better obviously in terms if Shermer’s.
But I’m trying to go recumbent full time for long distance now having jumped between recumbent and road bikes over the past three years. My recumbent eliminates the neck and other discomfort issues entirely.
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Your body is not built to deliver the required strength so just riding a bike isn’t enough. You need to be forcing your body to be stronger.
We can all selectively quote it one of the worlds great endurance cyclists says riding a bike is not enough.
Genetically we vary tremendously. Some people can stay slim and fit on no exercise and others need to train everyday and still have a constant battle to stay fit. For some HIIT works, for others long steady may well be better with intermittent strength training.
Good for bludger to challenge the standard paradigm of training and do something he feels HIS body will respond to best.
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Much as I like cycling long distances, I also want to remain generally healthy for a good long time. As I am ageing ( :(), I do weights 2 or 3 times a week, along with Pilates and other core exercises. Whilst this may have nothing directly to do with endurance training, the general health advice is that these sorts of activities help to preserve bone strength and muscle mass. I no longer have any neck, arm, wrist or back issues on long rides.
I mix this up with stuff on the bike and trainer, and running on alternate days. I guess the only issue might be if you end up carrying extra muscle mass, especially in the upper body. Mind you, Kurt "Tarzan" Searvogel didn't seem to have a problem having a "sturdy" physique ;D (mind you I don't remember him doing much in the way of hill-climbing).
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It isn't even just about 'moving the legs', one of my big worries is getting the likes of shermer's neck. I'm hoping that being able to dead lift good amounts of heavy things, coupled with the pressing movements and the chin ups might put me in good stead too.
Too often people think cycling is a 'legs sport', for my money it's just as important to have the whole-body strength to be on the handlebars with minimal aching and paining from the other half too. He doesn't go into it but JMH mentions dead lifts and much else as being crucial to preventing SN. https://www.jamesmarkhayden.uk/stories/shermers-neck-and-how-i-dealt-with-it
That's all reasonable, but one of the other things that he said was that he needed a good bike fit, and he put effort into refining his position. That means you need time on the bike. I can fully understand how mixing weights with cycling makes sense, but it feels like you are training for rowing and doing cycling as cross training, rather than the other way around. Erg rowing and most of your weight lifting is entirely symmetrical, but cycling is something that is fundamentally asymmetrical, which will impose different demands on your body (also, rowing is lower cadence and higher force). I wonder if this is why you get injured when riding but are fine when you are training for rowing.
Good luck - it's an interesting experiment. :)
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Your body is not built to deliver the required strength so just riding a bike isn’t enough. You need to be forcing your body to be stronger.
We can all selectively quote it one of the worlds great endurance cyclists says riding a bike is not enough.
Selectively quoting is exactly the right thing to do where the assertion is made that James says dead lifts are crucial to preventing Shermer's Neck. There's no other part of that linked post that mentions deadlifts so why include it?
No one denies all round strength work off the bike helps with resilience. But James does not make a specific claim about deadlifts being essential for preventing Shermer's. Least not in the linked post. We are also in the territory of confirmation bias when it comes to preventing Shermer's neck. I'm as guilty as anyone when it comes to that.
All over strength work is good, in general, no one disputes that.
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Here's what I essentially did with my bike fit on the road bike after WAWA 16. Consider the red image how my body and neck alignment ended up with a long peak cap,and on drops due to headwinds on WAWA. So aim is blue to have the neck in line with back which in my experience has meant much less load on the neck muscles.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/J_K_G7hvSklfQduYnaOJs9vn3eN7Bl2M3XdRAxp8GnSGWvaGa7vmGF09n87IEyHF_GBKRv_4eEozzr0w7nXO4AqPWeOsAwMcihU58yzUuTO81QsMtoAMwrEqHPPJI1NRJxLrfrldjA=w2400)
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That's all reasonable, but one of the other things that he said was that he needed a good bike fit, and he put effort into refining his position. That means you need time on the bike. I can fully understand how mixing weights with cycling makes sense, but it feels like you are training for rowing and doing cycling as cross training, rather than the other way around. Erg rowing and most of your weight lifting is entirely symmetrical, but cycling is something that is fundamentally asymmetrical, which will impose different demands on your body (also, rowing is lower cadence and higher force). I wonder if this is why you get injured when riding but are fine when you are training for rowing.
Good luck - it's an interesting experiment. :)
I've yet to be injured while cycling thankfully. Worst I've had so far is road rash from falling off in a cross race. I did used to get ankle pains on rides longer than 300km but fitted some pedal axle extenders which have worked marvelously.
I am actually riding the bike for 80 minutes or so a day anyway on the commute so it's not like I'm not getting time in on the bike.
I think it is important to note that athletes going for the podium will keep their training strategies under their hats. They could well be doing all sorts of things (and perhaps just as important *not* doing all sorts of things) which they won't disclose.
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That's all reasonable, but one of the other things that he said was that he needed a good bike fit, and he put effort into refining his position. That means you need time on the bike. I can fully understand how mixing weights with cycling makes sense, but it feels like you are training for rowing and doing cycling as cross training, rather than the other way around. Erg rowing and most of your weight lifting is entirely symmetrical, but cycling is something that is fundamentally asymmetrical, which will impose different demands on your body (also, rowing is lower cadence and higher force). I wonder if this is why you get injured when riding but are fine when you are training for rowing.
Good luck - it's an interesting experiment. :)
I've yet to be injured while cycling thankfully. Worst I've had so far is road rash from falling off in a cross race. I did used to get ankle pains on rides longer than 300km but fitted some pedal axle extenders which have worked marvelously.
I thought that this rowing strategy was injury avoidance because you said:
I believe doing lots of cycling puts me at risk of injury from putting all the 'aggro' on my knees and ankles.
I am actually riding the bike for 80 minutes or so a day anyway on the commute so it's not like I'm not getting time in on the bike.
That's a fairly chunky commute if it's at intensity. Is that the same bike/position as you ride on your longer rides?
I think it is important to note that athletes going for the podium will keep their training strategies under their hats. They could well be doing all sorts of things (and perhaps just as important *not* doing all sorts of things) which they won't disclose.
It's reasonable to assume that they are doing more than is in the public domain, but while they almost certainly make some activities private (or just don't upload them if they are gym based), I can't imagine that they are falsifying rides to put onto strava. ;)
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I thought that this rowing strategy was injury avoidance because...
It's from seeing that lots of cyclists get injuries doing all their training on bikes. My idea is to avoid contracting such a malaise by doing hard efforts off the bike, particularly off the turbo trainer which I am convinced encourages bad form habits such as gurning the joints in funny ways, thrashing from side to side on a bike that's locked in place like it's set into cement. Whereas the ergo spreads the aggro out all over the body I am convinced that indoor cycling is just like pointing a heat gun at your knees and ankles and sticking it on full blast.
That's a fairly chunky commute if it's at intensity. Is that the same bike/position as you ride on your longer rides?
Nah it's on a steel fixed gear bike at a 44/17 ratio. I don't go in a hurry because it's on a moderately hazardous route if care isn't taken. The position isn't radically different to the 'good bike', I use the same pedal extenders on it for sure.
I take a longer route back in the evenings (often after training) as it's much more hazardous in the dark.
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If it’s 80 mins total, it’s only 40 mins each way, so not that chunky a commute, more like in the sweetspot
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If it’s 80 mins total, it’s only 40 mins each way, so not that chunky a commute, more like in the sweetspot
If doing zone 2/UT2 work it's better to do one 80-minute ride than two separate 40-minute rides. Commuting riding can be a bit inconsistent for training based on traffic, hills etc.
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I was referring to sweetspot in terms of commute time rather than training. Mind my only sub 8 hour elapsed 210km audax was when the only “training” I was doing was such a 5 day a week commute and one long ride at the weekends. Then the following year I took up audax properly and more regularly and got slower!
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It's from seeing that lots of cyclists get injuries doing all their training on bikes. My idea is to avoid contracting such a malaise by doing hard efforts off the bike, particularly off the turbo trainer which I am convinced encourages bad form habits such as gurning the joints in funny ways, thrashing from side to side on a bike that's locked in place like it's set into cement. Whereas the ergo spreads the aggro out all over the body I am convinced that indoor cycling is just like pointing a heat gun at your knees and ankles and sticking it on full blast.
training on a turbo feels similar to being on a bike, it's rocking side to side almost the same way (at least my trainer does), plus it sits on a soft trainer mat which further increases rocking. some trainers are rock solid (e.g. wattbike), but when i trained on one there was no problems with joints or anything else. totally unsubstantiated "reasons" out of thin air.
some people will feel pains, but that's usually due to bad fit or body misalignments, just like it would be on a regular bike.
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I’m currently doing 10 second sprint drills once a week. This has me accelerating from 50rpm to 150rpm. There’s no noticeable rocking around and the turbo doesn’t move. Maybe I’m doing it wrong.
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A clubmate has made something involving tennis balls and a board to go under his turbo to accomodate rocking. The tennis balls might be cut in half, I can't remember the details. I think you can buy things that perform the same function.
My main question though is do many people really get injured training on a bike? I wasn't aware it was an issue. It must be a lot fewer than, say running or doing weights.
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There are all sorts of plans on the web for "rocker plates".
I suspect people get injured because of fit or just overuse rather than because the bike doesn't move.
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I got injured demonstrating my prowess on rollers when slightly inebriated. Tennis balls would have helped if I could have surrounded the area a few inches deep.
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A clubmate has made something involving tennis balls and a board to go under his turbo to accomodate rocking. The tennis balls might be cut in half, I can't remember the details. I think you can buy things that perform the same function.
My main question though is do many people really get injured training on a bike? I wasn't aware it was an issue. It must be a lot fewer than, say running or doing weights.
My worst injuries have been through falling off. It's a low impact sport in that way.
That said I have spent a fair amount of time with physios and my osteopath. None of these have been what I would call injuries but imbalances here and there around the hips, lower back and the odd knee problem. I did get Shermer neck in my first 24hr but that was down to not spending enough time in TT position in training - it hasn't happened since. I have known a lot of runners with injuries, though.
I don't believe the turbo causes any particular issues. When I had my broken hand I was doing 10-12hrs a week with noticeable issues other than a deep desire to be outside.
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all these comments about 'feels like bludger is training for rowing'; do people realise that the power in rowing comes from the legs?
Most of what bludger is doing is going to train core strength. Upper body work would include a lot of standing rows, cable machine work, curls; I don't see any of that. He's training trunk muscles.
Not convinced that low numbers of reps are good for endurance strength training though. I do pyramids; 10 or 15 reps x 3, increase the weight between each set. Very limited time so I only do single-arm rows, crossovers, lat pull-downs and sometimes fit in curls. Really should be doing deadlifts, but gym is always super crowded.
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Super crowded == forbidden for the foreseeable future
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Super crowded == forbidden for the foreseeable future
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It is the work gym and yes, it is now closed. :(
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Yes sadly training is suspended owing to social distancing protocols. I am riding the bike instead. The plus side is that all the events are now canceled anyway.
Shame as I was seeing good results with average speeds over longer distances etc. My hill climbing was also improving, I was going up hills quicker and in a bigger gear than before too. What can ya do.
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I've been doing Pilates most days over the winter and one longish (100 mile) ride a month
I'm going to switch to interval training when the weather improves a bit
Probably any proper long-distance riding will have to wait for weeks/months/years now. Can't see that doing a 200km would be particularly sensible at the moment