Author Topic: Wrists & Adamo :(  (Read 2649 times)

Wrists & Adamo :(
« on: 07 August, 2016, 11:30:19 pm »
OK, I know this is a topic well covered in general, but I do have a specific question :)

I bailed on the E&W coast audax as my wrists were simply too sore to want to carry on - it's making me miserable on the bike, and I'm wracking my brains as to what's going on...

I think I've always had some wrist discomfort (after 2xbike fit, shorter stem, shorter bike, padded bars, padded gloves it's been OK).  It was good enough for the LEL in 2013 with just a bit of ache, no nerve damage etc.

After that I got some tri-bars to help give me another position - I like them (though I think I need more ski-shaped extensions to give more natural wrist angle)

Sadly, I found I was then having 'undercarrage issues' when on the tri-bars, so I bought an ISM Adamo Road saddle which lets me comfortably rotate down to the tribars.


That brings us to now, having observed myself I'm convinced I'm putting too much weight on my hands - but my bike is shorter with shorter reach, and the saddle is further back so I should be canter-levered pretty well - however I'm struggling to hold the hands above the bars...

Do you think the short-nosed saddle preventing my trunk from supporting my weight?  Perhaps 'de-stabilising my pelvis'?
Anybody else had similar experiences & any advice?

 :-\

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Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #1 on: 07 August, 2016, 11:47:13 pm »
How high are your bars?
I've never used adamo so can't comment specifically, but observe roadster/dutch bike riding position vs. tour de wherever.
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Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #2 on: 08 August, 2016, 08:29:58 am »
I'm not convinced that shorter saddle-bar distance means easier to hold weight on hands. Try crouching over and putting your arms out in front of you, at various distances. If I try this, when I have my hands in closer to my body my lower spine is under increased tension - and that's without weight bearing on my hands.

Your saddle contact points should really be mostly just sitbones, so I don't think the adamo short nose will be causing this.

Do you do any core strength exercises (planks etc)?
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Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #3 on: 08 August, 2016, 08:41:50 am »
Fore and aft saddle position would be worth checking.  To balance your weight as you bend down for the bars your bum needs to move backwards, if it can't you'll end up with your hands supporting more weight.  Google KOPS (Knee over Pedal Spindle), forget all the debate about the theory, it may not be a definitive way of doing it but it often is a good way to work out where to start.

Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #4 on: 08 August, 2016, 09:34:05 am »
Your description of your problems exactly mirrors my own. You've followed the same path as I have: changing saddles, altering 'bar height and reach, padding, etc. All to little benefit in my case too. Your comment about "struggling to hold your hands above the 'bars" I interpret as a reference to Steve Hogg's method of determining whether your saddle set-back is correct. As an aside, I'd say that although the "KOPS" thing is a reasonable starting guide for saddle position, it's very approximate and most professional opinion I've seen says NOT to treat it as a rigid rule i.e. if you get a better balance with the knee well behind the pedal spindle, go that way.

I've found some improvement from fitting a seatpost with as much layback as I can find, to push the saddle further back and yes, the tri-bars help, in giving an alternative position, but I can't hold it very long because of the pressure on the perineum.

In my own case, I've come to the conclusion that the problem is fundamentally due to a combination of a lack of core strength and an excess of fat/weight! As I've aged, my musculature has deteriorated (lack of proper training, laziness, etc.) and I reach the point of fatigue sooner, by which I mean that, although I can start a ride full of beans, I quickly get to the point where I collapse like a sack of spuds and all three contact points start to complain.

You don't mention your age, weight, state of fitness, etc. but my best guess is that (sorry to be blunt!) shedding some fat and getting some Pilates/core work in would work wonders. I can say that the Pilates helps a lot - especially with the relief of lower back pain, and since I've managed to diet a stone of blubber off, my discomfort has reduced measurably, although I still can't do the distances I used to. What I have also noticed, counter-intuitively, is that lowering the 'bars has helped. In my case, I did this accidentally, as a result of returning to my old Condor as a "training" (spit!) bike. This frame was custom built for me many years ago when I was much fitter and slimmer but in recent years I'd put it aside as having too 'racy' (too low at the front) a position. I brought it back into use just for short training rides thinking I could stand the discomfort for brief periods but to my surprise, I've found it more comfortable than my newer, more upright frames. I've put this down in part to it's slacker seat tube angle (saddle still further back) but also to having my core tighter when on the drops.

A more drastic remedy would be to try a recumbent - but that's a whole different story .... !

Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #5 on: 08 August, 2016, 01:59:37 pm »
If you get a short-nosed saddle, and position it by bar/stem to saddle nose distance, the part of the saddle you sit on will be further forwards.
Just a thought

vorsprung

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Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #6 on: 08 August, 2016, 02:03:30 pm »
Could you explain this a bit more?

Quote
That brings us to now, having observed myself I'm convinced I'm putting too much weight on my hands - but my bike is shorter with shorter reach, and the saddle is further back so I should be canter-levered pretty well - however I'm struggling to hold the hands above the bars...

Why do you think you have too much weight on your hands?  I assume that this is problem when you have the bike setup for tribars but are using the hoods/drops instead?
"struggling to hold the hands above the bars"??? really don't see what you are saying there

Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #7 on: 08 August, 2016, 02:14:20 pm »
"struggling to hold the hands above the bars"??? really don't see what you are saying there
You should be able to let go of the bars, without changing your body position or toppling forwards.
If you can't, you are out of balance, with your C of G forwards of the BB because the saddle is too far forwards. It means you have to support your upper body with your hands 100% of the time. Move the saddle back, and your back muscles can support the upper body.

Consider bending over with your feet together and your hands in front of you in a bike riding position.
No problem - correct?

Now try again with a wall just behind you.
As you bend, your arse will hit the wall, and you'll either topple over, have to stop bending before reaching the bike riding position, or have to grab onto something to lean on (such as a suitably positioned zimmer frame or chair back).

A saddle that's too far forwards is like having a wall behind you, and the handlebars become something you have to lean on, like the zimmer frame

Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #8 on: 08 August, 2016, 02:34:26 pm »
You should be able to let go of the bars, without changing your body position or toppling forwards.
If you can't, you are out of balance, with your C of G forwards of the BB because the saddle is too far forwards. It means you have to support your upper body with your hands 100% of the time. Move the saddle back, and your back muscles can support the upper body.

That does need quite a good core strength - and I found that doing core strength exercises helped take load off my hands, and stopped me "sagging" on the saddle as well through  tiredness (sort of getting a convex back) which alleviated undercarriage issues to some extent as well.
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Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #9 on: 08 August, 2016, 04:15:43 pm »
Theorising will get us only so far as sometimes the solution seems to defy logic - like in my case putting the bars down rather than up to solve the same problem.  So I encourage you to keep on and on experimenting (as well as considering everyone's advice, of course).
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Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #10 on: 09 August, 2016, 08:31:04 pm »
Thanks for all the replies!! Let me try to respond using my phone, won't be on a pc until next week

I'm not a fan of KOPS , my knees are always way behind the pedal, no matter what I try.  I thought my knee to pedal distance was the same on the Adamo vs regular saddle but perhaps I'm moving forward so more layback would be the thing to try, though as I say my knee is already way behind the pedal :/

I'm 40 & only carrying 2-3 extra kilos, but I just tried a plank & can confirm my core needs some work! Vorsprung, I was thinking about trying to hold the hands above the hoods whilst riding for a few seconds - to show I'm not putting too much weight through the arms, this feels impossible

I'll stick with the saddle but push it back further, are there any issues with been so far away from KOPS?

Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #11 on: 10 August, 2016, 09:52:23 am »
I'd say you can forget about KOPS. It's useful as a general guide, on average, to determine a start point, but your goal should be to get the optimal balance between the three contact points. Being able to ride in your normal position but briefly with your hands removed from the 'bars is a good indicator of whether you have a good set-up (particularly re. saddle set-back) and sufficient core strength. My reference to Steve Hogg refers to this:-
https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/seat-set-back-for-road-bikes/
We are all individuals of course and it may not work for everyone, but the 'point of balance' seems to make sense to me and more importantly, it works for me as an individual. I have a longer-than-average leg length for my height and I've found that if I can get my saddle back far enough, it gives better results in terms of reducing discomfort in my hands than raising my 'bars.

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Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #12 on: 10 August, 2016, 11:11:26 am »
'Point of balance' is heavily influenced by strength of pedalling. A position comfortable for strenuous pedalling isn't necessarily good for pootling. Unless very fit, most folk doing long rides are towards the pootling end of the spectrum.
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Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #13 on: 10 August, 2016, 12:07:18 pm »
'Point of balance' is heavily influenced by strength of pedalling. A position comfortable for strenuous pedalling isn't necessarily good for pootling. Unless very fit, most folk doing long rides are towards the pootling end of the spectrum.
Fully agree and of course no set-up can be optimal for ALL circumstances/conditions - hence the use of different bikes for climbing, flat time-trials, etc. All one can do really, is to find the least-worst position for MOST of one's riding time/distance.

vorsprung

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Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #14 on: 10 August, 2016, 02:05:01 pm »
Vorsprung, I was thinking about trying to hold the hands above the hoods whilst riding for a few seconds - to show I'm not putting too much weight through the arms, this feels impossible

ok I get it
sounds like a core strength issue not bike fit as such

Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #15 on: 10 August, 2016, 02:33:06 pm »
I took a look at an Adamo saddle once. Too wide. Very little concavity.

Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #16 on: 10 August, 2016, 08:36:28 pm »
I had exactly the same problem in 2013 on LEL to the extent I had to bail. 

I had a bike fit from Adrian Timmis which totally transformed my comfort on the bike.  I have not done a lot of long distance recently apart from the Easter Arrow. and a few 200s but I have had no pressure problems at all.  I also immediately felt better on the bike in terms of being planted and at one with the bike.

Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #17 on: 13 August, 2016, 09:18:27 pm »
Thanks again to all for the helpful replies

'Point of balance' is heavily influenced by strength of pedalling. A position comfortable for strenuous pedalling isn't necessarily good for pootling. Unless very fit, most folk doing long rides are towards the pootling end of the spectrum.

Thanks LWaB - Nail on head.  Never realised before, but my bike fit sessions have got me to a good position when peddling HARD - not my usual Audax pace!

Also thanks PP, that Steve Hoggs article sounds spot on for where I'm at. 

Think I'll stick with the saddle, try some more lay-back, and do a series of core strength exercises to see how I get on over the coming months.  Am reluctant to pay for another bike fit - think it's now trial and error...

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Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #18 on: 14 August, 2016, 08:56:38 am »
I found something totally weird in that when I moved my seat back, I could balance regardless (still had loads of shoulder ache).  A bike fit moved my saddle forward about 2cm (ahead of KOPS) which made me cycle better and substantially alleviated my shoulder ache.

Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #19 on: 14 August, 2016, 07:48:36 pm »
I found something totally weird in that when I moved my seat back, I could balance regardless (still had loads of shoulder ache).  A bike fit moved my saddle forward about 2cm (ahead of KOPS) which made me cycle better and substantially alleviated my shoulder ache.

same here, with more or less the same issues. that, and really lowering the bar, so that I could use my torso to balance the paddling. and hip flexibility turned out to be key, in my case, not core strength.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz-VlJjqQhY

I cycle with clip on aerobars and try to be as aero as possible so as to save watts on long distances.

Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #20 on: 14 August, 2016, 08:22:54 pm »
Saddle tilt is another thing to try, I generally have some neck issues so really am not sure about lowering the front though - interesting vid all the same, cheers

Re: Wrists & Adamo :(
« Reply #21 on: 08 July, 2018, 11:57:30 am »
Lots of experimenting, and some cost, in the end I think my saddle was too high... it meant I subconsciously moved to the front of the saddle and ‘perched’ giving me little support.

I’ve moved it back and down, made the mistake last weekend of raising it again, whilst that felt ok (no rocking) I had a sore arse and wrists - dropping it down 2-3mm and it’s more supportive.