ACP Randonneur 10000

[Ajax Bay]

My experience of OpenRunner was that it underscored the elevation on the Cambrian 6C Super Randonnnee in comparison with other methods of checking, including a painstaking contour count - 10,122m vs 11,100 - 12,000 by other methods.  However, my assumption would be that they would take the published figure as it would be a faff to replicate the route, but that's just innocent supposition.
As someone with a penchant for hilly 600km events, my Garmin agrees with me that some 8000m ascent rides are more hilly than others.

Bryan Chapman wasn't accepted as it was just under 8000m on RWGPS, way under on OpenRunner but ~8400m published based on the AUK AAA validator.

BCM 17-19 and 22 was not 'just' under 8000m it was way under (close to / under 7000m) on RwGPS. However on Openrunner the same 'almost 600km long' route was 7668m.
Your route for the Bryan Chapman Memorial 2023, on RwGPS is a couple of hundred metres more climb. So with a few tweeks in 2024 maybe you could get it over 8000m on Openrunner.
My experience seems contrary to yours: I find (for Welsh routes anyway) that the climb according to Openrunner is about 10% HIGHER than RwGPS.
Deano's SR600 is 12,341m climb on RwGPS but 13,161m on Openrunner.

[Wycombewheeler]

My experience of OpenRunner was that it underscored the elevation on the Cambrian 6C Super Randonnnee in comparison with other methods of checking, including a painstaking contour count - 10,122m vs 11,100 - 12,000 by other methods.  However, my assumption would be that they would take the published figure as it would be a faff to replicate the route, but that's just innocent supposition.

As someone with a penchant for hilly 600km events, my Garmin agrees with me that some 8000m ascent rides are more hilly than others.

Bryan Chapman wasn't accepted as it was just under 8000m on RWGPS, way under on OpenRunner but ~8400m published based on the AUK AAA validator.

Does this mean someone at ACP is vetting routes for this requirement?

[FifeingEejit]

How about in person in Paris on 7 January?

It was a bit odd they suggest you can collect the award in Paris. For anybody but a Parisian that sounds like a costly and wasteful suggestion.

It's probably cheaper than travelling to (er where was the last one) for the auk awards in 2019 to collect a bit of glass, and the return.
Can do Paris for about 50 quid each way if quick on lner and eurostar websites.

Sent from my IV2201 using Tapatalk

[Wycombewheeler]

So the new rules have been posted

QUALIFYING EVENTS
The qualifying events must be completed within a six year period, beginning on the date of the first qualifying event.
To qualify for this award, the randonneur must complete :
- 2 full series of ACP brevets (200, 300, 400, 600 and 1000 km), plus a BRM600 with 8000m (26.240
ft) elevation minimum. - Longer brevets cannot be substituted for shorter ones
- 1 PARIS-BREST-PARIS Randonneur
- Another 1200 km + event homologated by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux
- 1 FLECHE VELOCIO or National Arrow The achieved mileage is used (i.e. if the team went further
than the minimum qualifying distance of 360 km).
At least 3 riders must finish the Flèche (you cannot individually claim for your ridden mileage if your team
was not successful).
International randonneurs can ride a Flèche Nationale homologated by the ACP and organized in
accordance with the rules for the Flèche Vélocio.
No Brevet can be substituted for another.
The events used to apply for the Randonneur 5000 can be used to apply for the Randonneur 10000.
To bring the total distance up to at least 10,000 km, following ACP events are accepted :
- Brevets des Randonneurs Mondiaux (BRMs).
- 1200+ events homologated by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux. These 1200 km events cannot take the place of
the ACP 1000 km brevet.
- Flèche Vélocio or Flèche Pascale or Flèche Nationale.
- Flèche de France (ACP permanents), if they are ridden on one of the established routes and in the Gold or
Silver division. The Flèche de Dieppe is not acceptable since it is shorter than 200 km.
- Super Randonnées homologated before 2022, November 01.

Super Randonees are now only given the same weight as any random three BRM 200s, and even if they were ridden before the rules change it seems will no longer be accepted

Goalposts well and truly moved, and as far as I can tell there is no way of finding out where they even are now. Which BRM 600s are these unicorns that have 8,000m of climbing as accepted by ACP?

BCM is listed by AUK as 8400m, but I've always felt that was generous, and it seems ACP agree based on Mr Pomeroy's comment above.
The Brimstone is only listed as 7.5AAA points
The Pendle 600 is listed as 10,000m, but no way of knowing whether ACP would accept that. (whether or not I could even finish it within 40 hours is a different question)
No way of identifying on the ACP BRM calendar which BRM 600s would be accepted.

Does anyone know?

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

I checked my Garmin reading for the 2022 Brimstone - 8109m, so it would be marginal.  The route has tended to vary over time depending on the location of suitable controls (which has changed over time), that could add or take away a couple of hundred metres.  I would expect them to use Openrunner to check a route - as that seems to be a French preference (they are using it for the PBP route profiles again this year) and, as noted above, it tends to be stingy on the ascent it gives to a route.

[iroiromono]

Does anyone know?

Climbing figures are to be submitted for events to the ACP as part of the submission from the ACP Representative. This includes a seperate column for the amount of climbing for a 600 if it is greater than 8,000m.

Look on the ACP calendar and you can see their recognised climbing figures. For the UK there are only 2 which qualify for the coming season. Will Poms and Andy Corless.
https://www.audax-club-parisien.com/en/our-organizations/brm-world/#calendar

I'll be heading to Malaysia for a BRM 600 with 9,500m climbing on Feb 11th! Entries still open if you're tempted.
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/41821362

My April "Mekong 600" BRM event here in Vietnam only has 1,400m!

[Wycombewheeler]

Does anyone know?

Climbing figures are to be submitted for events to the ACP as part of the submission from the ACP Representative. This includes a seperate column for the amount of climbing for a 600 if it is greater than 8,000m.

Look on the ACP calendar and you can see their recognised climbing figures. For the UK there are only 2 which qualify for the coming season. Will Poms and Andy Corless.
https://www.audax-club-parisien.com/en/our-organizations/brm-world/#calendar

I'll be heading to Malaysia for a BRM 600 with 9,500m climbing on Feb 11th! Entries still open if you're tempted.
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/41821362

My April "Mekong 600" BRM event here in Vietnam only has 1,400m!

Thanks, by reducing the display size to 75% I was able to find the elevation (Dénivelé) column. Interesting that BCM is down as compliant when Will said he thought it wasn't due to openrunner analysis. Wonder if this means that previous years BCMs are OK.

Seems like I will be OK then, without needing to travel to Malaysia or Vietnam next month. I have entered BCM which ACP list as being 8500m

there is also one in Ireland on 29th of July, a few in France, many in Spain

[Zed43]

Also one in Germany and one in Norway (that has several start dates, expect to be the only one riding...)

Haven't really decided whether to pursue a 2nd ACP10k. The Super Randonnée was tough but doable in 60 hours. 8k climbing in 40 hours seems stressful, you can no longer pick a date that is convenient and it annoys me greatly that this was changed only for politics/ego reasons.

[slugbait]

[...] It annoys me greatly that this was changed only for politics/ego reasons.

Same here, I was one BRM1000 and one PBP short of the ACP Randonneur 10000, with plenty of time to complete both. But now the superrandonnee that I completed in 2021 no longer counts. If they change the rules midway through the game (because of extreme pettiness), then I can't be bothered with these kind of awards anymore.

[Wycombewheeler]

[...] It annoys me greatly that this was changed only for politics/ego reasons.

Same here, I was one BRM1000 and one PBP short of the ACP Randonneur 10000, with plenty of time to complete both. But now the superrandonnee that I completed in 2021 no longer counts. If they change the rules midway through the game (because of extreme pettiness), then I can't be bothered with these kind of awards anymore.

I did seriously think about stopping riding BRMs, but as I had already entered a load of PBP qualifiers....
IF BCM is accepted, then all it takes is for my 2019 BCM to be swapped with my SR from the required row to the extra kms row. If BCM is not accepted then I may give up on this. I certainly won't bother pursuing another one.

[Ajax Bay]

Climbing figures are to be submitted for events to the ACP as part of the submission from the ACP Representative. This includes a separate column for the amount of climbing for a 600 if it is greater than 8,000m.
Look on the ACP calendar and you can see their recognised climbing figures. For the UK there are only 2 which qualify for the coming season. Will Pom's and Andy Corless.
https://www.audax-club-parisien.com/en/our-organizations/brm-world/#calendar (there is a scrolling bar at the bottom btw)

Interesting that BCM is down as compliant when Will said he thought it wasn't due to openrunner analysis. Wonder if this means that previous years BCMs are OK.
Seems like I will be OK then, without needing to travel to Malaysia or Vietnam next month. I have entered BCM which ACP list as being 8500m
there is also one in Ireland on 29th of July, a few in France, many in Spain

I assure you that the BCM is not OpenRunner over 8000m+ compliant. ACP are just listing what they've been told by the Audax UK's rep to ACP who has simply taken it from the Audax UK calendar. ACP will verify these climb amounts. For your sake let's hope this slips through.
Will's route is a bit more than previous. Come over Gospel Pass on the way home and: no problem. But I just can't see that happening: maybe take that line on the way out?
See my careful analysis repasted below of the previous BCM route (eg 2017-9 and 2022) and the 2023 route (as best as Will has shared).
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/20922029?beta=false
Openrunner: https://www.openrunner.com/route-details/15746836
Will's route for the Bryan Chapman Memorial 2023 (guesstimate)
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/41282610
In UK you have to ride Andy's Pendle 600. The BCM is just too easy to count. The Brimstone may also come in at over 8000m on OpenRunner (I haven't checked) but unlikely: it's "only" 6787m on RwGPS, so less climb than BCM.

Date                   Name          Contact          Town           Dénivelé
10/06/2023   Pendle 600   Andy Corless   Clitheroe   10150
20/05/2023   BCM 2023        Will Pomeroy   Chepstow    8459
27/05/2023   Brimstone          Peter Treviss   Poole    7560

Bryan Chapman wasn't accepted as it was just under 8000m on RWGPS, way under on OpenRunner but ~8400m published based on the AUK AAA validator.

BCM 17-19 and 22 was not 'just' under 8000m it was way under (close to / under 7000m) on RwGPS. However on Openrunner the same 'almost 600km long' route was 7668m.
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/28456143
Your route for the Bryan Chapman Memorial 2023, on RwGPS is a couple of hundred metres more climb. So with a few tweeks in 2024 maybe you could get it over 8000m on Openrunner.
My experience seems contrary to yours: I find (for Welsh routes anyway) that the climb according to Openrunner is about 10% HIGHER than RwGPS.
Deano's SR600 is 12,341m climb on RwGPS but 13,161m on Openrunner.

[Wycombewheeler]

I assure you that the BCM is not OpenRunner over 8000m+ compliant. ACP are just listing what they've been told by the Audax UK's rep to ACP who has simply taken it from the Audax UK calendar. ACP will verify these climb amounts. For your sake let's hope this slips through.

Well if people are expected to find 600km rides with 8000m of climbing and ACP lists figures on their calendar, but then after riding, they go back to verify disqualify the data they have already given us when trying to find a compliant ride then frankly they can do one.

Moving goalposts (such as replacing SR600s with this) are already bad enough, phantom goalposts (where they provide some information, and then when it was used they do not accept it) would be are ridiculous. If we cannot trust the figures quoted on their calendar, then the question of how we are meant to know which rides count is still valid.

[iroiromono]

Just completed the BRM 600 w/ 8000m+ climbing can confirm that it was bloody tough

37 degree heat in the afternoons, bloody long climbs and a saddle that was not making me happy.

1 hour sleep ahead of a 30km decent in the dark on a elephant inhabited road made it a memorable and extremely demanding ride. What a way to wrap up the ACP R10k

[Wycombewheeler]

on a elephant inhabited road

seems like incentive enough.

was this on the lanes, or was it a trunk road?

I'll get my coat.

[psyclist]

Just completed the BRM 600 w/ 8000m+ climbing can confirm that it was bloody tough

Well done. It would tough enough when riding it as an SR, let alone at BRM pace.

[Wycombewheeler]

Just completed the BRM 600 w/ 8000m+ climbing can confirm that it was bloody tough

Well done. It would tough enough when riding it as an SR, let alone at BRM pace.

yes, 2000m less but 20 hours less. is not a balanced trade.

[Peter]

2 hours less?

[Wycombewheeler]

2 hours less?

the now defunct (or at least ignored by ACP) super randonee was 600km, over 10,000m of climbing and 60 hours. effectively giving you 3 days (7am on day 1 to 7pm on day 3) allowing the super randonee to be ridden as a (challenging) tour with time for sensible sleeping. It was still not easy because those metres of elevation take their toll, but shifting to 600km and 8,000m in 40 hours reduces the group of cyclists likely to be able to complete. I would not feel safe riding for 40 hours without at least 4 hours sleep. I got less stopping at kings on BCM and ended up taking naps beside the road, same on the last day of LEL, short sleep trying to make progress before the heat, but just ended up having naps along the way.


when I did my SR600 I stopped overnight for 10 hours each night, (wash, eat, sleep, eat) and finished with just over 30 minutes to spare. knocking 20 hours off the time budget means no sleeping, other than the time saved for 8000m instead of 10,000m. Maybe under more time pressure I would have stopped less during the day. But I don't think I was having pub lunches, and I was solo so no real reason to loiter.
day 1 start 07:31, finish 20:04, 217km 4700m
day 2  start 06:52, finish 20:08  204km 4000m
day 3   start 06:39, finish 18:47 192km 3500m

we are not comparing BRM to BR or BP

[Ajax Bay]

the now defunct (or at least ignored by ACP) super randonee was 600km, over 10,000m of climbing and 60 hours. effectively giving you 3 days (7am on day 1 to 7pm on day 3) allowing the super randonee to be ridden as a (challenging) tour with time for sensible sleeping. It was still not easy because those metres of elevation take their toll, but shifting to 600km and 8,000m in 40 hours reduces the group of cyclists likely to be able to complete. I would not feel safe riding for 40 hours without at least 4 hours sleep. I got less stopping at kings on BCM and ended up taking naps beside the road,

we are not comparing BRM to BR or BP

A lorra of riders have completed the Bryan Chapman BRM 600 in the 40 hours, with a decent amount of sleep (4+), year on year. The climb (2022 or 2023 routes) is only about 1000m shy of the 8000m required. So if a rider can complete BCM in 38 hours then a 600 with 8000+m is entirely doable by hundreds of AUKers. The challenge is that, other than Andy's scenic 600, none are scheduled in the UK. Bring back Ian's Kernow and SW!

[iroiromono]

on a elephant inhabited road

was this on the lanes, or was it a trunk road?

Very good very good.

At a claimed 9000m+ by the org around 7,500 on my gps who knows what the true figure was. RidewGPS and Strava differ a lot as does the barometric reading. No absolutes in elevation estimation

[Wycombewheeler]

A lorra of riders have completed the Bryan Chapman BRM 600 in the 40 hours, with a decent amount of sleep (4+), year on year. T

Not if they slept at Kings they didn't, I was turfed out of bed after less than 3, total stopped time was less than 4 hours including controlling and eating dinner and breakfast, packing bags etc.
But yes, when I booked my own accommodation I had 6 hours in Penrhyndeudraeth (picked up bag from kings northbound, dropped into BnB and checked in, rode on to Menai, then back to sleep, before returning bag to kings)

I think the terrain on the BCM is incredibly kind for the climbing figures, very few places where the descents require a lot of braking and climbs that are also gradual and don't fatigue the legs excessively. Also good road surfaces. There's no way I could have done the SW moors in 40 hours and had 4 hours sleep. But if a route were similar to BCM then it would be achievable by many. So I guess 8000m isn't the same as 8000m

[Peter]

2 hours less?

the now defunct (or at least ignored by ACP) super randonee was 600km, over 10,000m of climbing and 60 hours. effectively giving you 3 days (7am on day 1 to 7pm on day 3) allowing the super randonee to be ridden as a (challenging) tour with time for sensible sleeping. It was still not easy because those metres of elevation take their toll, but shifting to 600km and 8,000m in 40 hours reduces the group of cyclists likely to be able to complete. I would not feel safe riding for 40 hours without at least 4 hours sleep. I got less stopping at kings on BCM and ended up taking naps beside the road, same on the last day of LEL, short sleep trying to make progress before the heat, but just ended up having naps along the way.




when I did my SR600 I stopped overnight for 10 hours each night, (wash, eat, sleep, eat) and finished with just over 30 minutes to spare. knocking 20 hours off the time budget means no sleeping, other than the time saved for 8000m instead of 10,000m. Maybe under more time pressure I would have stopped less during the day. But I don't think I was having pub lunches, and I was solo so no real reason to loiter.
day 1 start 07:31, finish 20:04, 217km 4700m
day 2  start 06:52, finish 20:08  204km 4000m
day 3   start 06:39, finish 18:47 192km 3500m

we are not comparing BRM to BR or BP

Sorry WW - obviously I was!  I wasn't thinking.

[this_is_the_way]

So the new rules have been posted

QUALIFYING EVENTS
The qualifying events must be completed within a six year period, beginning on the date of the first qualifying event.
To qualify for this award, the randonneur must complete :
- 2 full series of ACP brevets (200, 300, 400, 600 and 1000 km), plus a BRM600 with 8000m (26.240
ft) elevation minimum. - Longer brevets cannot be substituted for shorter ones
- 1 PARIS-BREST-PARIS Randonneur
- Another 1200 km + event homologated by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux
- 1 FLECHE VELOCIO or National Arrow The achieved mileage is used (i.e. if the team went further
than the minimum qualifying distance of 360 km).
At least 3 riders must finish the Flèche (you cannot individually claim for your ridden mileage if your team
was not successful).
International randonneurs can ride a Flèche Nationale homologated by the ACP and organized in
accordance with the rules for the Flèche Vélocio.
No Brevet can be substituted for another.
The events used to apply for the Randonneur 5000 can be used to apply for the Randonneur 10000.
To bring the total distance up to at least 10,000 km, following ACP events are accepted :
- Brevets des Randonneurs Mondiaux (BRMs).
- 1200+ events homologated by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux. These 1200 km events cannot take the place of
the ACP 1000 km brevet.
- Flèche Vélocio or Flèche Pascale or Flèche Nationale.
- Flèche de France (ACP permanents), if they are ridden on one of the established routes and in the Gold or
Silver division. The Flèche de Dieppe is not acceptable since it is shorter than 200 km.
- Super Randonnées homologated before 2022, November 01.

Super Randonees are now only given the same weight as any random three BRM 200s, and even if they were ridden before the rules change it seems will no longer be accepted

Goalposts well and truly moved, and as far as I can tell there is no way of finding out where they even are now. Which BRM 600s are these unicorns that have 8,000m of climbing as accepted by ACP?

BCM is listed by AUK as 8400m, but I've always felt that was generous, and it seems ACP agree based on Mr Pomeroy's comment above.
The Brimstone is only listed as 7.5AAA points
The Pendle 600 is listed as 10,000m, but no way of knowing whether ACP would accept that. (whether or not I could even finish it within 40 hours is a different question)
No way of identifying on the ACP BRM calendar which BRM 600s would be accepted.

Does anyone know?

If this was a copy/paste from ACP at the time, it seems that the English version of this has changed. Notably, the first emphasis "plus a BRM 600..." has been bumped down to it's own line item with the verbiage that no brevet can be substituted fro any other brevet unchanged.

Does anyone know if you need 2 SR series and an additional 600 with 8k gain or could the 600 in the SR have 8k gain and qualify for both?

[willpom gwraudax]

So the new rules have been posted

QUALIFYING EVENTS
The qualifying events must be completed within a six year period, beginning on the date of the first qualifying event.
To qualify for this award, the randonneur must complete :
- 2 full series of ACP brevets (200, 300, 400, 600 and 1000 km), plus a BRM600 with 8000m (26.240
ft) elevation minimum. - Longer brevets cannot be substituted for shorter ones
- 1 PARIS-BREST-PARIS Randonneur
- Another 1200 km + event homologated by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux
- 1 FLECHE VELOCIO or National Arrow The achieved mileage is used (i.e. if the team went further
than the minimum qualifying distance of 360 km).
At least 3 riders must finish the Flèche (you cannot individually claim for your ridden mileage if your team
was not successful).
International randonneurs can ride a Flèche Nationale homologated by the ACP and organized in
accordance with the rules for the Flèche Vélocio.
No Brevet can be substituted for another.
The events used to apply for the Randonneur 5000 can be used to apply for the Randonneur 10000.
To bring the total distance up to at least 10,000 km, following ACP events are accepted :
- Brevets des Randonneurs Mondiaux (BRMs).
- 1200+ events homologated by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux. These 1200 km events cannot take the place of
the ACP 1000 km brevet.
- Flèche Vélocio or Flèche Pascale or Flèche Nationale.
- Flèche de France (ACP permanents), if they are ridden on one of the established routes and in the Gold or
Silver division. The Flèche de Dieppe is not acceptable since it is shorter than 200 km.
- Super Randonnées homologated before 2022, November 01.

Super Randonees are now only given the same weight as any random three BRM 200s, and even if they were ridden before the rules change it seems will no longer be accepted

Goalposts well and truly moved, and as far as I can tell there is no way of finding out where they even are now. Which BRM 600s are these unicorns that have 8,000m of climbing as accepted by ACP?

BCM is listed by AUK as 8400m, but I've always felt that was generous, and it seems ACP agree based on Mr Pomeroy's comment above.
The Brimstone is only listed as 7.5AAA points
The Pendle 600 is listed as 10,000m, but no way of knowing whether ACP would accept that. (whether or not I could even finish it within 40 hours is a different question)
No way of identifying on the ACP BRM calendar which BRM 600s would be accepted.

Does anyone know?

If this was a copy/paste from ACP at the time, it seems that the English version of this has changed. Notably, the first emphasis "plus a BRM 600..." has been bumped down to it's own line item with the verbiage that no brevet can be substituted fro any other brevet unchanged.

Does anyone know if you need 2 SR series and an additional 600 with 8k gain or could the 600 in the SR have 8k gain and qualify for both?

"No Brevet can be substituted for another."

[Flâneur]

"No Brevet can be substituted for another."

To be fair, this_is_the_way's question isn't about substituting a (longer) brevet for another, but whether the same 600 can count in one of the series, and as the hilly ride. I think it's a fair enough question, albeit one that will likely only be answered definitively by the ACP (who have helpfully provided a contact in the rules). Given the previous wording, I'd guess not, although why then change the wording?

Obviously when a Super Randonnée was the hilly criterion, it couldn't count towards the BRM series. Now, with the change of rules to a BRM600, it's possible it could.