Yet Another Cycling Forum
Off Topic => The Pub => Topic started by: ScumOfTheRoad on 13 January, 2021, 11:20:38 am
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Have we had a thread on this yet? Paging TimC
https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/19003988.raf-chinook-lifted-muddy-field-near-wantage/
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(https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/442x586/b9fda82d_dc06_4b94_ac7b_9f463b437fe7_d45dff27567b1d6eb29070b555dbbc0811a8eb1c.jpeg)
Better safe than sorry.
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Have we had a thread on this yet? Paging TimC
https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/19003988.raf-chinook-lifted-muddy-field-near-wantage/
Nothing to do with me! It's a bloody hicopleter. It can stay in the mud.
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Maybe they put the rotors on upside-down ;D
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Given the power they have I would have thought that they could just take off from the bogged down situation?
I was reminded of another tale about a Chinook (from when my wife worked at an RAF charity) . . . some sort of serviceman sustained a serious injury on a training exercise where a Chinook was in use - quick thinking . . . man loaded to the Chinook and flown to a major hospital - OK so far . ... BUT the Chinook touched down on a gravel car park and blasted* loads of cars with stones! I understand that the crew only narrowly avoided a court martial.
* I've only every been close to or in very small helicopters and they kick up a lot of dust and debris - the Chinook must have been something else ;D
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* I've only every been close to or in very small helicopters and they kick up a lot of dust and debris - the Chinook must have been something else ;D
You say that as though they're in the past. They very much are not! The RAF has about 75 of them, 16 new ones ordered in 2018. It'll be around for at least another 20 years. I've driven one as a guest; it's ok as bloody stupid aircraft go, but it's the noisiest thing short of a Saturn 5 and it takes forever to get anywhere.
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(https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/442x586/b9fda82d_dc06_4b94_ac7b_9f463b437fe7_d45dff27567b1d6eb29070b555dbbc0811a8eb1c.jpeg)
Better safe than sorry.
Whoever has the job of applying the chocks runs the risk of being disciplined for not applying the chocks whatever the circumstances, and the consequences to him of doing something totally pointless are far less.
At least the men with the cranes would know where to find the chocks when they put the helicopter down on the temporary roadway.
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* I've only every been close to or in very small helicopters and they kick up a lot of dust and debris - the Chinook must have been something else ;D
You say that as though they're in the past. They very much are not! The RAF has about 75 of them, 16 new ones ordered in 2018. It'll be around for at least another 20 years. I've driven one as a guest; it's ok as bloody stupid aircraft go, but it's the noisiest thing short of a Saturn 5 and it takes forever to get anywhere.
. . . ah, no - I meant that the "spectacle was something else"
AND I was down in Devon when one of the older helicoptor types was being retired (can't remember the name) - we watched 5 or 6 of them at low level flying in formation along the river from Bideford to Barnstaple on the way into Chivenor on a celebratory tour round the UK.
EDIT - it was the Sea Kings that were retiring
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AFAIK, the chinook is still about the fastest military helicopter. With choppers, bigger is better in every way.
I guess they couldn't take off because the pilot would be unable to tell if the helinopter was 'hovering' until the wheels came out of the mud; if he was wrong, there would be a fair chance of unscheduled rapid disassembly.
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There has obviously been manoeuvres going on around here just recently as each evening we hear a "WHOOOSH" which goes on way longer than any jet would do (we are talking tens of minutes).
It was only when taking TLD to college the other day that I realised the noise is a brace of Chinooks. Bloody hell they are noisy!
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The only "helicopter" that I hear regularly around here that is noisier is the Osprey
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The only "helicopter" that I hear regularly around here that is noisier is the Osprey
Fortunately I think we have avoided them so far, though why when I live only 8 miles from the European Air Command Centre, I don't know!
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The only "helicopter" that I hear regularly around here that is noisier is the Osprey
May I ask where there are Ospreys in the UK?
Chinooks regularly take the route up the Thames in London. Fair shakes the windows.
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The only "helicopter" that I hear regularly around here that is noisier is the Osprey
May I ask where there are Ospreys in the UK?
Chinooks regularly take the route up the Thames in London. Fair shakes the windows.
Uxbridge mainly
I believe Dave is in the flatlands which would make some kind of sense, airfield wise
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(https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/442x586/b9fda82d_dc06_4b94_ac7b_9f463b437fe7_d45dff27567b1d6eb29070b555dbbc0811a8eb1c.jpeg)
Whoever has the job of applying the chocks runs the risk of being disciplined for not applying the chocks whatever the circumstances, and the consequences to him of doing something totally pointless are far less.
Perhaps the chocks were put down before the helicopter began to sink?
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Whoever has the job of applying the chocks runs the risk of being disciplined for not applying the chocks whatever the circumstances, and the consequences to him of doing something totally pointless are far less.
Perhaps the chocks were put down before the helicopter began to sink?
THat was my thought. I used to live a few miles from where it happened and those fields are regularly waterlogged so once they's landed it was probably a foregone conclusion.
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The only "helicopter" that I hear regularly around here that is noisier is the Osprey
May I ask where there are Ospreys in the UK?
Chinooks regularly take the route up the Thames in London. Fair shakes the windows.
Uxbridge mainly
I believe Dave is in the flatlands which would make some kind of sense, airfield wise
I'm within an hour's cycle of both Mildenhall and Lakenheath
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* I've only every been close to or in very small helicopters and they kick up a lot of dust and debris - the Chinook must have been something else ;D
You say that as though they're in the past. They very much are not! The RAF has about 75 of them, 16 new ones ordered in 2018. It'll be around for at least another 20 years. I've driven one as a guest; it's ok as bloody stupid aircraft go, but it's the noisiest thing short of a Saturn 5 and it takes forever to get anywhere.
Weren't those quietly canned last year and money moved to upgrading the existing fleet?
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The only "helicopter" that I hear regularly around here that is noisier is the Osprey
May I ask where there are Ospreys in the UK?
Chinooks regularly take the route up the Thames in London. Fair shakes the windows.
Uxbridge mainly
I believe Dave is in the flatlands which would make some kind of sense, airfield wise
Uxbridge? The RAF station (never an airfield) closed in 2010. The 7th SOC Sqn at RAF Mildenhall, Suffolk is the only unit in UK that is home to the V-22. I'm not sure what the European Air Command Centre is, or why it should attract V-22s.
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Given the power they have I would have thought that they could just take off from the bogged down situation?
Perhaps they were worried that, as it took off, it would drag the planet into a different orbit.
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Given the power they have I would have thought that they could just take off from the bogged down situation?
Perhaps they were worried that, as it took off, it would drag the planet into a different orbit.
Or maybe it was judged to be insufficiently ugly that it wouldn't be repelled by the Earth in the usual manner of wokka flight.
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The only "helicopter" that I hear regularly around here that is noisier is the Osprey
May I ask where there are Ospreys in the UK?
Chinooks regularly take the route up the Thames in London. Fair shakes the windows.
We used to get regular lunchtime visits from them flying down the Lea Valley, though I ent noticed them recently. I think they were keeping an eye on Jurek.
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Chinooks are fairly regular visitors here at Wattisham. I had hoped I'd seen the last of them when I left the RAF in 1998, but no such luck. They make a change from the Apaches, which aren't as loud but are Even Fucking Slower, so they take all night to get from one side of my garden to the other.
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plenty of "wockatter-wockatters" down here, near Benson...and I'd assume that's one of theirs, stuck at Wantage?
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plenty of "wockatter-wockatters" down here, near Benson...and I'd assume that's one of theirs, stuck at Wantage?
in fact if I'd bothered reading the Mail before posting, I'd have seen that it was, yes indeed...
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Uxbridge? The RAF station (never an airfield) closed in 2010. The 7th SOC Sqn at RAF Mildenhall, Suffolk is the only unit in UK that is home to the V-22. I'm not sure what the European Air Command Centre is, or why it should attract V-22s.
Shows how out of date my info is. Back in the days when I worked in Uxbridge Ospreys were regular flyovers.
As for the other thing, RAF Leeming FYI :)
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Here we do get whomp-whomp-whomps going over, but far more of the tooled up dangerous looking things going to Fairford.
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We mainly get the various air ambulance choppers over our house (we're on the flightpath to Addenbrookes) but we do get the occasional military chopper - either going to Marshalls (albeit for not much longer) or from one of the various bases in the East of England. Last saw a Chinook last year. We mainly get Sikorsky-style choppers (I'm quite possibly wrong in the description) or the odd Apache.
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Whirlybirds are fairly common round here. Air ambulance, police looking for prison absconders, coastguards looking for distressed sailors or unwise ramblers stuck in our super sticky mud, and the occasional pair of Chinooks trundling down the North Kent coast.
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I got buzzed by a Chinook a few months back. I was on the Ridgeway above Harwell on my
gravel mud bike. Heard the thump - thump getting louder, then there it was about a 100m to my left, flying level with me. Must have come up over the ridge and started to drop back down into the Valley. Caused a certain sensation in me.
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I got buzzed by a Chinook a few months back. I was on the Ridgeway above Harwell on my gravel mud bike. Heard the thump - thump getting louder, then there it was about a 100m to my left, flying level with me. Must have come up over the ridge and started to drop back down into the Valley. Caused a certain sensation in me.
Admit it... you tried racing it, didn't you? ;D
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Not sure if this will work...
Chinook (http://www.alfiecat.co.uk/yetacf/Chinook2.mov)
doesn't have sound for me... but there is sound there.
I've changed the link - should open in a new window
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Given the power they have I would have thought that they could just take off from the bogged down situation?
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Unless it was fully laden. Guess it would be hard to unload in those conditions.
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Uxbridge? The RAF station (never an airfield) closed in 2010. The 7th SOC Sqn at RAF Mildenhall, Suffolk is the only unit in UK that is home to the V-22. I'm not sure what the European Air Command Centre is, or why it should attract V-22s.
Shows how out of date my info is. Back in the days when I worked in Uxbridge Ospreys were regular flyovers.
As for the other thing, RAF Leeming FYI :)
RAF Leeming's current units (Yorkshire Universities Air Sqn is shortly due to move in to join Northumbrian):
No. 1 Group (Air Combat) RAF
No. 100 Squadron – Hawk T1A
Joint Forward Air Control Training and Standardisation Unit (JFACTSU)
No. 607 (County of Durham) Squadron (Royal Auxiliary Air Force)
No. 2 Group (Air Combat Support) RAF
No. 2 RAF Force Protection Wing
No. 2 Force Protection Wing Headquarters
No. 34 Squadron RAF Regiment
No. 609 (West Riding) Squadron (Royal Auxiliary Air Force) Regiment
No. 22 Group (Training) RAF
No. 11 Air Experience Flight – Tutor T1
Northumbrian Universities Air Squadron – Tutor T1
Operational Training Centre[34]
No. 38 Group (Air Combat Service Support) RAF
No. 90 Signals Unit
Operational Information Services Wing
No. 1 (Engineering Support) Squadron
No. 5 (Information Services) Squadron
Capability and Innovation Squadron
Operations Squadron
Tactical Communications Wing
No. 2 Field Communications Squadron
No. 3 Field Communications Squadron
No. 4 Field Communications Squadron
RAF Leeming Mountain Rescue Team (MRT)
I've never heard of a 'European Air Command Centre' and there's no mention of such an organisation on Wikipedia or the RAF's site.
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Some more details of the recovery operation: https://www.forces.net/news/chinook-stuck-mud-leaves-oxfordshire-raf-benson
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Wasn't 'European Air Command Centre' or something similar a US military thing that used to be in Germany?
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@TimC. I swear I saw an article in the local rag (when we used to get them). Must be mistaken :( Told you my RAF history etc was a bit carp.
Thanks for the details of who lives there now. All I know is that one noisy bunch bugger off to be replaced by another.
<shrugs>
Meh
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Given the power they have I would have thought that they could just take off from the bogged down situation?
The undercarraige is probably optimised for supporting the mass above it rather than resisting the pulling force of the rotors - The Chinook may have enough power to damage itself if anchored by it's wheels...
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Given the power they have I would have thought that they could just take off from the bogged down situation?
The undercarraige is probably optimised for supporting the mass above it rather than resisting the pulling force of the rotors - The Chinook may have enough power to damage itself if anchored by it's wheels...
Ground resonance, y'all:
Ground resonance is an imbalance in the rotation of a helicopter rotor when the blades become bunched up on one side of their rotational plane and cause an oscillation in phase with the frequency of the rocking of the helicopter on its landing gear. The effect is similar to the behavior of a washing machine when the clothes are concentrated in one place during the spin cycle. It occurs when the landing gear is prevented from freely moving about on the horizontal plane, typically when the aircraft is on the ground.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_resonance
Here are a couple of videos of a Wokka in a ground resonance test:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RihcJR0zvfM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-LFLV47VAbI
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Given the power they have I would have thought that they could just take off from the bogged down situation?
The undercarraige is probably optimised for supporting the mass above it rather than resisting the pulling force of the rotors - The Chinook may have enough power to damage itself if anchored by it's wheels...
Ground resonance, y'all:
Ground resonance is an imbalance in the rotation of a helicopter rotor when the blades become bunched up on one side of their rotational plane and cause an oscillation in phase with the frequency of the rocking of the helicopter on its landing gear. The effect is similar to the behavior of a washing machine when the clothes are concentrated in one place during the spin cycle. It occurs when the landing gear is prevented from freely moving about on the horizontal plane, typically when the aircraft is on the ground.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_resonance
Here are a couple of videos of a Wokka in a ground resonance test:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RihcJR0zvfM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-LFLV47VAbI
That definitely looks sub-optimal :o
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Wasn't 'European Air Command Centre' or something similar a US military thing that used to be in Germany?
The United States Europe Command has recently moved from Stuttgart to Belgium, and is the seat of SACEUR. The move was part of Trump's revenge on Germany for not spending enough on NATO, and was tied to the removal of 12,000 US military personnel from Germany (incidentally guaranteeing the future of RAF Mildenhall through the 2020s).
@TimC. I swear I saw an article in the local rag (when we used to get them). Must be mistaken :( Told you my RAF history etc was a bit carp.
Thanks for the details of who lives there now. All I know is that one noisy bunch bugger off to be replaced by another.
<shrugs>
Meh
You lost the (extremely noisy) Tornados of 11, 23 and 25 Sqns about 15-18 years ago. The (quieter) Hawks of 100 Sqn have been there for many years. The University Air Sqns fly little puddle-jumpers (currently Tutors but being replaced by something equally plastic and farty-noised); Northumbrian has been there for about 40 years, and Yorkshire (which I used to be Chief Instructor on) is moving up from Linton on Ouse as it closes. You just missed out on the Red Arrows coming to live there, but they've gone to Waddington just the other side of Lincoln from Scampton where they're moving from.
My guess is that the 100 Sqn Hawks have only five years or so of life left in them, and they'll be replaced by a civilian contract based at one of the under-used civilian airports in the north-east. Leeming will close at that point, and the several ground units will move to Catterick - where they'll build a whole load more new accommodation for them. I don't see the UAS system lasting very much longer either - I might bid to buy one of their little put-puts when they fold!
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Working next to the Westland aerodrome we get quite a lot of helicopter traffic. An Apache going past the windows lower than the level of our roof is quite a sight.
We occasionally get Chinooks over as the aerodrome is one of the fairly few places helicopters can do certain types of test flying. If one goes overhead, the entire three-storey building shakes. Very impressive.
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The only "helicopter" that I hear regularly around here that is noisier is the Osprey
May I ask where there are Ospreys in the UK?
Chinooks regularly take the route up the Thames in London. Fair shakes the windows.
We used to get regular lunchtime visits from them flying down the Lea Valley, though I ent noticed them recently. I think they were keeping an eye on Jurek.
I confess to quite enjoying every item on the desk bouncing around as they passed overhead.
These days I'm esconced in Londres Sud, and well south of Woolwich Barracks - so, a bit out of reach.
The only place I've ever seen airborne Ospreys was over south east Kent.
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Given the power they have I would have thought that they could just take off from the bogged down situation?
The undercarraige is probably optimised for supporting the mass above it rather than resisting the pulling force of the rotors - The Chinook may have enough power to damage itself if anchored by it's wheels...
Ground resonance, y'all:
Ground resonance is an imbalance in the rotation of a helicopter rotor when the blades become bunched up on one side of their rotational plane and cause an oscillation in phase with the frequency of the rocking of the helicopter on its landing gear. The effect is similar to the behavior of a washing machine when the clothes are concentrated in one place during the spin cycle. It occurs when the landing gear is prevented from freely moving about on the horizontal plane, typically when the aircraft is on the ground.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_resonance
Here are a couple of videos of a Wokka in a ground resonance test:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RihcJR0zvfM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-LFLV47VAbI
I was just thinking "that looks like it could break things" when bits started to fall off.
Another reason to not like helicopters.
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If you just spool it up to maximum power, you get the same effect as when your welly is stuck in mud and you pull hard. You get your foot back, and a sock if you're lucky, but no welly.
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If you just spool it up to maximum power, you get the same effect as when your welly is stuck in mud and you pull hard. You get your foot back, and a sock if you're lucky, but no welly.
Having looked at the ground resonance test video above, it is more akin to pulling hard and your leg coming off at the knee and arterial blood spraying everywhere.
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Not far from home I was riding along minding my own business when a Chinook caught up. It was about a hundred feet up and doing around 25 mph ground speed - I was doing about 15. I did race it but a) too fast for me and b) in the pile-driver/pile scenario I was on the losing end.
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RAF Leeming's current units (Yorkshire Universities Air Sqn is shortly due to move in to join Northumbrian):
No. 34 Squadron RAF Regiment Tactical Communications Wing
No. 34 Squadron RAF Regiment:
Used to be at Akortiri when I was in the mob.
Tactical Communications Wing (TCW)
I once served on TCW when it was at Brize Norton.
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The only "helicopter" that I hear regularly around here that is noisier is the Osprey
May I ask where there are Ospreys in the UK?
Chinooks regularly take the route up the Thames in London. Fair shakes the windows.
Uxbridge mainly
I believe Dave is in the flatlands which would make some kind of sense, airfield wise
Uxbridge? The RAF station (never an airfield) closed in 2010. The 7th SOC Sqn at RAF Mildenhall, Suffolk is the only unit in UK that is home to the V-22. I'm not sure what the European Air Command Centre is, or why it should attract V-22s.
Hopefully we won't get any more of them flying over our house terrifying the livestock at barely above treetop height in a non-low flying zone in very rural Powys. I'm happy to see our own defence forces training. but bloody Americans breaking the rules does not impress me. When I queried this with the MOD low flying enquiries thing, I got a "please tell me your postcode" response, despite me giving them the exact latitude and longitude in the initial enquiry. "how close were they to this location?" between our house and next door, as I originally told you. Muppets. Helicopters just aren't natural, and Ospreys seem to be the bastard lovechild of a Fairey Rotodyne and something out of Thunderbirds.
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Residents of the island of Okinawa, Japan have complained about Ospreys since they first arrived on the large US base there, not least because there have been several crashes.
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Residents of the island of Okinawa, Japan have complained about Ospreys since they first arrived on the large US base there, not least because there have been several crashes.
Okinawa contains several US bases and around 30,000 US forces personnel and another 50,000 US nationals as dependants and in support roles, so I can understand why the locals might be fed up with American service people. However, only one Osprey has been lost in an accident there, on 13 December 2016. It was offshore, and no-one was injured.
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Besides the crash there have been other incidents, as in this link:
https://mainichi.jp/english/search?q=okinawa+ospreys (https://mainichi.jp/english/search?q=okinawa+ospreys)
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Besides the crash there have been other incidents, as in this link:
https://mainichi.jp/english/search?q=okinawa+ospreys (https://mainichi.jp/english/search?q=okinawa+ospreys)
There's a reference to the incident I quoted, but no others where an aircraft was lost or significantly damaged. There's a specious reference to an 'emergency landing', but the press is usually completely wrong about such things and will turn an emergency call in to a 'narrowly avoided schools and hospitals' story with no justification. All the other items are basically 'Americans go home because we don't like you'. That's fine, but it's not justified by problems with the Osprey in Japan.
The early days of the aeroplane (in the USA) were traumatic; 30 people lost their lives during testing. But it got sorted out and its in-service record is pretty good. The Ockinawans may well have a good case for not liking the Americans, but basing it on the Osprey is disingenuous.
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My impression is that because Ospreys showed signs of control problems, the population didn't fancy having them flying continuously over them and their houses. Seems reasonable to me :)
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they've always seemed to be able to fly in a straight line round here
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they've always seemed to be able to fly in a straight line round here
That’s fine, but what happens when they want to go round corners ;)
[“A good question!” – TE Lawrence]
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My impression is that because Ospreys showed signs of control problems, the population didn't fancy having them flying continuously over them and their houses. Seems reasonable to me :)
Sorry, but I think you're clutching at straws here! I think you have conflated your own impression of the Osprey, drawn from little relevant evidence, with the well-known and possibly well-justified antipathy of the local population of Okinawa to the overwhelming American presence on the island.
Your original post:
Residents of the island of Okinawa, Japan have complained about Ospreys since they first arrived on the large US base there, not least because there have been several crashes.
I have shown to be false. There has been one crash, offshore, in which no-one was injured.
Your attempt to draw support from the local press:
Besides the crash there have been other incidents, as in this link:
https://mainichi.jp/english/search?q=okinawa+ospreys
Shows possibly one other incident (an 'emergency landing'), and a lot of references to the December 2016 incident - some indeed using that incident as the justification for protesting further Osprey deployments (though in Tokyo, not Okinawa) - with non-specific references to 'other accidents', which are presumably referring to accidents during testing in the USA.
As the Osprey has been deployed in Okinawa for over 10 years there will be a number of minor incidents on record, but there is only one accident. The aircraft has a sound safety record in the region, despite a difficult gestation in its early development. The press coverage does not seem to present any evidence of any other accidents apart from one in Australia. The combination of this and the 2016 accident off Okinawa, appears to constitute 'a series of accidents' for their purpose, which is the closure of Futenma MCAS.
Now, as I say, the locals may well have good reasons to resent the Americans and to wish they weren't there (well, those who aren't employed by or because of them, anyway) but for you or the Okinawans to suggest the Osprey is a credible reason for this is laughable!
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My impression is that because Ospreys showed signs of control problems, the population didn't fancy having them flying continuously over them and their houses. Seems reasonable to me :)
Sorry, but I think you're clutching at straws here! I think you have conflated your own impression of the Osprey, drawn from little relevant evidence, with the well-known and possibly well-justified antipathy of the local population of Okinawa to the overwhelming American presence on the island.
Your original post:
Residents of the island of Okinawa, Japan have complained about Ospreys since they first arrived on the large US base there, not least because there have been several crashes.
I have shown to be false. There has been one crash, offshore, in which no-one was injured.
Your attempt to draw support from the local press:
Besides the crash there have been other incidents, as in this link:
https://mainichi.jp/english/search?q=okinawa+ospreys
Shows possibly one other incident (an 'emergency landing'), and a lot of references to the December 2016 incident - some indeed using that incident as the justification for protesting further Osprey deployments (though in Tokyo, not Okinawa) - with non-specific references to 'other accidents', which are presumably referring to accidents during testing in the USA.
As the Osprey has been deployed in Okinawa for over 10 years there will be a number of minor incidents on record, but there is only one accident. The aircraft has a sound safety record in the region, despite a difficult gestation in its early development. The press coverage does not seem to present any evidence of any other accidents apart from one in Australia. The combination of this and the 2016 accident off Okinawa, appears to constitute 'a series of accidents' for their purpose, which is the closure of Futenma MCAS.
Now, as I say, the locals may well have good reasons to resent the Americans and to wish they weren't there (well, those who aren't employed by or because of them, anyway) but for you or the Okinawans to suggest the Osprey is a credible reason for this is laughable!
Meh
A cursory google (osprey crash okinawa) gave a Grauniad (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/14/us-osprey-mv22-fleet-grounded-japan-okinawa-aircraft-crash-military) report as the 4th link: this talks of "several fatal accidents in other countries, including one in Hawaii in May 2015 in which a crew member died."
The 1st link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_V-22_Osprey) talks more generally about the Osprey's perceived safety and lists its record, at least until 2017:
The Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey is an American military tiltrotor aircraft with an accident history that has generated some controversy over its perceived safety. The aircraft was developed by Bell Helicopter and Boeing Helicopters; the companies partner in its manufacture and support.
The V-22 Osprey had 12 hull loss accidents that resulted in a total of 42 fatalities. During testing from 1991 to 2006 there were four crashes resulting in 30 fatalities.[1] Since becoming operational in 2007, the V-22 has had seven crashes including two combat-zone crashes,[2][3] and several other accidents and incidents that resulted in a total of 12 fatalities.[4]
While nearly half the deaths appear to have been in one crash during testing, and a crash every couple of years of operating service probably isn't *that* much, I'm not sure I'd be sanguine about them operating near my house with any regularity.
And given there were two incidents *on the same day* in December 2016 at the Futenma base, it's a bit dismissive to say that the Okinawan's fears about the Osprey are 'laughable.'
Statistically unfounded, almost certainly, but two crashes, of the same aircraft type, operated by the same people, on the same day, would give me the willies if they were anywhere nearby.
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Here is a list of all Osprey accidents and incidents. Although there is mention of a 'belly landing' at Futenma on the 13 December 2016, there's no documentary evidence of this alleged incident. All US Forces' accidents and incidents outside warzones are fully recorded in the same way that civilian ones are, so it's interesting that there appears to be no supporting evidence of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_V-22_Osprey#December_2016
To give a sample of the level of reporting that's fuelling this campaign - and why I think it laughable - this is as good an example of crap reporting as I've ever read (and this was a specialist defence publication!):
A U.S. Marine Corps Osprey has reportedly made two emergency landings in the past two months, the recent one made at Oita Airport on August 29.
Tuesday's incident at Oita Airport, which caused no injuries, is the latest in a series of emergency landings and crashes involving the aircraft in and outside Japan that have further stoked safety concerns.
The tilt-rotor aircraft is apparently the same one that touched down at a U.S. airfield on Ie Island, near Okinawa's main island, in June after a cockpit warning light came on, Kyodo News learned based on photos that showed the two Ospreys bearing the same aircraft number and unit name, The Mainichi reports.
Moreover, the same aircraft was spotted emitting white smoke while it was parked at the U.S. military's Iwakuni base in Yamaguchi Prefecture on August 28.
The Osprey involved in these problems belongs to the U.S. Marine Corps Air Station Futenma in Ginowan, Okinawa Prefecture.
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Here is a list of all Osprey accidents and incidents. Although there is mention of a 'belly landing' at Futenma on the 13 December 2016, there's no documentary evidence of this alleged incident. All US Forces' accidents and incidents outside warzones are fully recorded in the same way that civilian ones are, so it's interesting that there appears to be no supporting evidence of it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_V-22_Osprey#December_2016
Aye, that wiki article is the same one I linked to.
There are further references to the apparent second incident at Futenma in, inter alia, both a complaint (https://www.pref.okinawa.jp/site/gikai/documents/yotoukougiketugieiyaku.pdf) from the local prefectural assembly to the US ambassador and in https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2016/12/16/second-osprey-incident-on-okinawa/, which suggests that as it was a controlled (albeit wheels-up) landing onto padding and did not result in damage, it would not be recorded as a 'mishap.'
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I've had an RTB due to an engine warning light in a cessna, does that bring all 150/152 into question? I've also been in a C130 with an engine failure, but would have no issue (other than noise) getting in another one. I'd suggest that an emergency landing due to a warning light is prudent piloting, not a dangerous aircraft
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If I lived in Okinawa, I wouldn't be taking much comfort from Boeing's most recent aircraft control system development history.
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So you'll never fly Boeing again? I'm really struggling to follow your logic here, considering the complaints you cite are pre 737 max
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Hmm, I'd not say I'd never fly in a Boing again.
But that choice is largely out of my hands, if I actually need to go somewhere.
But my confidence in the certification process is certainly dented.
It seems that they had powers of persuasion they should have not.
But things are no better here.
Airbus hellichopters have their own issues.
The industry has not, in general, adopted the Risk Assessment approach, where *they* have to look at what they do, and perform a risk assessment.
They still take the proscriptive-rule approach and look to regulators to tell them what they need to do, provide boxes they have to tick.
That was the case in the oil industry, up to Piper Alpha.
"We checked all the boxes!"
Now, you need to tell us why what you are doing is safe.
Risk assessment versus prescriptive rule check-boxes.
But the aircraft industry has been slow to step up to this, to say the least.
I'm saying this from the PoV of someone who has some knowledge of the Clutha crash, and how Eurocopter defended themselves in the proceedings.
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Having been an occupant of G-REDL the day before it went down, I share some of your opinions.
I could also tell you some interesting tales of blind spots in risk based approaches
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Am I the only one that has been in a chinook crash ;)
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i crashed my Claud Butler Chinook on L2B many years ago...
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Am I the only one that has been in a chinook crash ;)
I’ve helped prevent one cutting itself in two.
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So you'll never fly Boeing again? I'm really struggling to follow your logic here, considering the complaints you cite are pre 737 max
I never said any such thing. I'm getting fed up with the bile directed at me for simply reporting the feelings of people who feel threatened by questionable safety standards. If you want to take issue with them, do it directly rather than use me as a proxy.
Boeing has demonstrated typical US company disregard for anything other than profits with the 737 scandal. How long has that attitude prevailed?
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It’s what happens when beancounters get put in charge instead of engineers. A similar phenomenon was observed with Mercedes-Benz, though at least when a Merc breaks down it doesn’t generally fly off the road and kill its occupants and, optionally, innocent bystanders utterly to DETH.
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So you'll never fly Boeing again? I'm really struggling to follow your logic here, considering the complaints you cite are pre 737 max
I never said any such thing. I'm getting fed up with the bile directed at me for simply reporting the feelings of people who feel threatened by questionable safety standards. If you want to take issue with them, do it directly rather than use me as a proxy.
Boeing has demonstrated typical US company disregard for anything other than profits with the 737 scandal. How long has that attitude prevailed?
There is no bile from me, I'm just struggling to understand your logic that one Osprey crash equates to a terrible safety record and is directly linked to the 737 scandal. I know there is a big antiUS sentiment in Okinawa, but it is a fair question whether that is caused by a poor safety record by the Osprey, historic sentiment of 50 plus years, or something else.
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So you'll never fly Boeing again? I'm really struggling to follow your logic here, considering the complaints you cite are pre 737 max
I never said any such thing. I'm getting fed up with the bile directed at me for simply reporting the feelings of people who feel threatened by questionable safety standards. If you want to take issue with them, do it directly rather than use me as a proxy.
Boeing has demonstrated typical US company disregard for anything other than profits with the 737 scandal. How long has that attitude prevailed?
Thing is, what you reported was based on bad reporting locally, which tried to conflate the non-issue of the Osprey’s safety record with the genuine issue of anti-American sentiment in Okinawa. Now the latter is something the Japanese will have to deal with, but until China changes its ways I don’t see any remote chance of the Americans moving out. But that’s their problem.
You apparently have something against the Osprey. Fair enough, it’s a very unconventional aircraft and it did have a difficult development period, but other than all helicopters being offensive to the Earth and science, the Osprey has no particular safety issues. The company that make the aircraft, while nominally part-labelled ‘Boeing’, has extremely little connection with the company that makes the 737. It’s essentially Bell Helicopters, in conjunction with Boeing-Vertol which is a peripheral military helicopter specialist part of the Boeing group. It has about as much to do with the 737 as Airbus does.
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To deflect the Chinook topic even further :) is the VC10 still flying, though officially retired?
Today I saw a (military looking) large jet, swept back wings, 4 engines at the tail, quite noisy. Too far away to see any details but as in Oxfordshire looked to be headed for Brize Norton, was pointing that way anyway.
Or are there other makes with that configuration?
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There is (was) a Russian lookalike.
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There is (was) a Russian lookalike.
Ilyushin Il-62.
According to the al-Wiki scrolls, it's still in use with the governments of North Korea and Sudan, plus the Russian Air Force:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-62#Current_operators
ETA - the only other aircraft with four engines mounted in pairs at the rear of the fuselage is the Lockheed Jetstar, but that is business jet-sized, and only in use as a corporate/private jet these days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_JetStar
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To deflect the Chinook topic even further :) is the VC10 still flying, though officially retired?
Today I saw a (military looking) large jet, swept back wings, 4 engines at the tail, quite noisy. Too far away to see any details but as in Oxfordshire looked to be headed for Brize Norton, was pointing that way anyway.
Or are there other makes with that configuration?
The VC10 last flew in September 2013. I spent a large part of my professional life between 1994-98 teaching people the fine art of sticking things up the VC10's arse. Sport of kings!
The RAF eventually owned 36 of the 54 VC10s that were built, though only around 22 flew in RAF colours - the rest were bought from trade and reduced to spares, mostly at RAF Abingdon (as was). It was a nice aeroplane to fly, and among the very fastest subsonic airliners, but by god it was thirsty. It burned the same amount of fuel (about 10 tonnes/hour) as a 747-200, despite being much less than half the size.
Edit: to answer your question, you didn't see a VC10. I doubt you saw an IL62 either, but I don't know where you were. That info might help identify what you saw.
Edit 2: doh, TimC, RTFQ!! Yeah, as PB says below, B1B is most likely, going to Fairford.
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There is (was) a Russian lookalike.
Ilyushin Il-62.
According to the al-Wiki scrolls, it's still in use with the governments of North Korea and Sudan, plus the Russian Air Force:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-62#Current_operators
ETA - the only other aircraft with four engines mounted in pairs at the rear of the fuselage is the Lockheed Jetstar, but that is business jet-sized, and only in use as a corporate/private jet these days.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_JetStar
In my early years on the C130, we used to see Aeroflot IL62s in Gander as they nightstopped on their way to Cuba. The rear fuselage support wheel always amused me - the aeroplane could not stay on an even keel if it was empty, so it needed this extra support.
The Jetstar isn't flying any more.
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To deflect the Chinook topic even further :) is the VC10 still flying, though officially retired?
Today I saw a (military looking) large jet, swept back wings, 4 engines at the tail, quite noisy. Too far away to see any details but as in Oxfordshire looked to be headed for Brize Norton, was pointing that way anyway.
Or are there other makes with that configuration?
Wasn't a B1-B by any chance? That has swept wings and 4 engines towards the rear, if not actually "at the tail"
https://images.app.goo.gl/SQzSNxAbTRQRs9UE6 (https://images.app.goo.gl/SQzSNxAbTRQRs9UE6)
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To deflect the Chinook topic even further :) is the VC10 still flying, though officially retired?
Today I saw a (military looking) large jet, swept back wings, 4 engines at the tail, quite noisy. Too far away to see any details but as in Oxfordshire looked to be headed for Brize Norton, was pointing that way anyway.
Or are there other makes with that configuration?
The VC10 last flew in September 2013. I spent a large part of my professional life between 1994-98 teaching people the fine art of sticking things up the VC10's arse. Sport of kings!
The RAF eventually owned 36 of the 54 VC10s that were built, though only around 22 flew in RAF colours - the rest were bought from trade and reduced to spares, mostly at RAF Abingdon (as was). It was a nice aeroplane to fly, and among the very fastest subsonic airliners, but by god it was thirsty. It burned the same amount of fuel (about 10 tonnes/hour) as a 747-200, despite being much less than half the size.
Edit: to answer your question, you didn't see a VC10. I doubt you saw an IL62 either, but I don't know where you were. That info might help identify what you saw.
Edit 2: doh, TimC, RTFQ!! Yeah, as PB says below, B1B is most likely.
This was on the Harwell RAL / Diamond Light campus site, about 2pm ish. The aircraft was heading NW. I first heard it (much rumbling) then saw it coming towards. By the time I got brain engaged and stopped, it had flown past. Def the 2x2 engines right at the tail. Not like the B1B image. Just looked old school hence the 'gosh was that one of...?' thoughts. Are there similar configuration but smaller aircraft, as had no means of scaling?
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To deflect the Chinook topic even further :) is the VC10 still flying, though officially retired?
Today I saw a (military looking) large jet, swept back wings, 4 engines at the tail, quite noisy. Too far away to see any details but as in Oxfordshire looked to be headed for Brize Norton, was pointing that way anyway.
Or are there other makes with that configuration?
The VC10 last flew in September 2013. I spent a large part of my professional life between 1994-98 teaching people the fine art of sticking things up the VC10's arse. Sport of kings!
The RAF eventually owned 36 of the 54 VC10s that were built, though only around 22 flew in RAF colours - the rest were bought from trade and reduced to spares, mostly at RAF Abingdon (as was). It was a nice aeroplane to fly, and among the very fastest subsonic airliners, but by god it was thirsty. It burned the same amount of fuel (about 10 tonnes/hour) as a 747-200, despite being much less than half the size.
Edit: to answer your question, you didn't see a VC10. I doubt you saw an IL62 either, but I don't know where you were. That info might help identify what you saw.
Edit 2: doh, TimC, RTFQ!! Yeah, as PB says below, B1B is most likely, going to Fairford.
Ahem, ED, not PB. :P
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To deflect the Chinook topic even further :) is the VC10 still flying, though officially retired?
Today I saw a (military looking) large jet, swept back wings, 4 engines at the tail, quite noisy. Too far away to see any details but as in Oxfordshire looked to be headed for Brize Norton, was pointing that way anyway.
Or are there other makes with that configuration?
The VC10 last flew in September 2013. I spent a large part of my professional life between 1994-98 teaching people the fine art of sticking things up the VC10's arse. Sport of kings!
The RAF eventually owned 36 of the 54 VC10s that were built, though only around 22 flew in RAF colours - the rest were bought from trade and reduced to spares, mostly at RAF Abingdon (as was). It was a nice aeroplane to fly, and among the very fastest subsonic airliners, but by god it was thirsty. It burned the same amount of fuel (about 10 tonnes/hour) as a 747-200, despite being much less than half the size.
Edit: to answer your question, you didn't see a VC10. I doubt you saw an IL62 either, but I don't know where you were. That info might help identify what you saw.
Edit 2: doh, TimC, RTFQ!! Yeah, as PB says below, B1B is most likely, going to Fairford.
Ahem, ED, not PB. :P
Doing well today, aren't I!
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To deflect the Chinook topic even further :) is the VC10 still flying, though officially retired?
Today I saw a (military looking) large jet, swept back wings, 4 engines at the tail, quite noisy. Too far away to see any details but as in Oxfordshire looked to be headed for Brize Norton, was pointing that way anyway.
Or are there other makes with that configuration?
The VC10 last flew in September 2013. I spent a large part of my professional life between 1994-98 teaching people the fine art of sticking things up the VC10's arse. Sport of kings!
The RAF eventually owned 36 of the 54 VC10s that were built, though only around 22 flew in RAF colours - the rest were bought from trade and reduced to spares, mostly at RAF Abingdon (as was). It was a nice aeroplane to fly, and among the very fastest subsonic airliners, but by god it was thirsty. It burned the same amount of fuel (about 10 tonnes/hour) as a 747-200, despite being much less than half the size.
Edit: to answer your question, you didn't see a VC10. I doubt you saw an IL62 either, but I don't know where you were. That info might help identify what you saw.
Edit 2: doh, TimC, RTFQ!! Yeah, as PB says below, B1B is most likely.
This was on the Harwell RAL / Diamond Light campus site, about 2pm ish. The aircraft was heading NW. I first heard it (much rumbling) then saw it coming towards. By the time I got brain engaged and stopped, it had flown past. Def the 2x2 engines right at the tail. Not like the B1B image. Just looked old school hence the 'gosh was that one of...?' thoughts. Are there similar configuration but smaller aircraft, as had no means of scaling?
In short, no, there's no other aircraft with 4 engines at the tail. The only one still flying is the IL62. You should be able to trace whether there was one in UK airspace at the time on Flightradar 24. As spesh's Wiki link shows, the very last Jetstar exec jet with that config last flew last month in the USA, and I think it's been a good while since there were any over here, and the VC10s have long gone.
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Am I the only one that has been in a chinook crash ;)
I’ve helped prevent one cutting itself in two.
Gearbox failure?
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Did check FlightRadar. There was a small Bombardier went over about 1400 heading for Oxford. But unless my eyes were doing double vision, and def didn't clock double distance on the ride, there were 4 not 2 tail engines. And this looked and sounded big and vintage. Perhaps a military not tracked inbound to Brize Norton?
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It's very unlikely it wasn't tracked, if it was flying IFR in UK airspace. About the only IL62s that are potential visitors to Brize would be something like Polish Air Force (if they still have them - I haven't looked). But they would be operating as GAT and would be tracked. Nothing else of any size with rear-mounted engines, vintage or otherwise, is flying.
The Bombardier Global Express or CRJ is probably the largest twin-engined aircraft with rear-mounted engines flying these days. The RAF uses the Raytheon Sentinel, which is a electronic reconnaissance aircraft based on the Global Express. It has a lot of extraneous aerialage, which does confuse the outline somewhat, and it is of a nature which might mean it's not tracked at times, but Brize isn't where it would be going (they're based at Waddington). Not that they wouldn't visit Brize, but they would be traceable on regular training flights.
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Oh well. Now if I were a kid glued to my phone I would have taken a video. But I'm not. Thanks though anyway.
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It'll have to remain a mystery! Gave me cause to look up some nice photos, though.
Just for interest, this is the last visit to UK I can find evidence of of an IL62 - at Doncaster in 2018 (former RAF Finningley, where I was based from 1987-91)
https://youtu.be/8ciLyaheuSo
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Any cargo 727s or MD80s operating in the UK?
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Any cargo 727s or MD80s operating in the UK?
Good point. There are very few of either left in Europe, but Oil Spill Response operate a couple of 727s - again out of Doncaster, I think. The only MD80s I can think of that might come here are Danish, and I'm not sure if they still fly. Can't remember the operator.
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I think there are still some DC-10s out of Stansted, but not likely to be that low over Oxfordshire, surely? Also three engines, not four.
KC-10s also still around? I'm trying to think of the last time I saw one of those overhead round here. EDIT not according to their website.
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Any cargo 727s or MD80s operating in the UK?
Good point. There are very few of either left in Europe, but Oil Spill Response operate a couple of 727s - again out of Doncaster, I think. The only MD80s I can think of that might come here are Danish, and I'm not sure if they still fly. Can't remember the operator.
Possibly also Southampton for ORSL from memory?
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Raytheon Sentinel R1:
https://www.raytheonintelligenceandspace.com/sites/rtx2/files/2020-02/Decision%20Superiority_Capability%20Page_HERO_ASTOR.jpg
Oil Spill Response 727:
https://www.oilspillresponse.com/globalassets/campaigns/fia2016/performance.jpg
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Any cargo 727s or MD80s operating in the UK?
Good point. There are very few of either left in Europe, but Oil Spill Response operate a couple of 727s - again out of Doncaster, I think. The only MD80s I can think of that might come here are Danish, and I'm not sure if they still fly. Can't remember the operator.
Possibly also Southampton for ORSL from memory?
Yes, quite possibly. Last I heard (a mate works for them) they were home-based at Donny, but I'm sure they operate out of any coastal airfields in UK.
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I seem to remember multiple places, plus spotter aircraft, oriented around the Channel and other strategic points. I only know this from numerous lengthy discussions on oil spill plans by offshore operators.
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Am I the only one that has been in a chinook crash ;)
I’ve helped prevent one cutting itself in two.
Gearbox failure?
I think it was something to do with the rotor brake.
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Am I the only one that has been in a chinook crash ;)
I’ve helped prevent one cutting itself in two.
Gearbox failure?
I think it was something to do with the rotor brake.
Close. The “droop stop” which prevents the rotors from hitting the fuselage had fallen off. Whilst I was improvising a ramp to flip the rotor over the fuselage a pilot was in another aircraft practising using the brake to stop the rotor in time. Ramp in position we were ready to go and the pilot managed to bring the offending rotor to a halt just before it hit the ramp.
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It'll have to remain a mystery! Gave me cause to look up some nice photos, though.
Just for interest, this is the last visit to UK I can find evidence of of an IL62 - at Doncaster in 2018 (former RAF Finningley, where I was based from 1987-91)
https://youtu.be/8ciLyaheuSo
It was that sort of profile, def the 4 engines clustered on the rear. The youtube angles weren't as I saw overhead so no direct comparison of the wing sweep (non tech speak :)) And it was noisy. #scratcheshead
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It's very unlikely it wasn't tracked, if it was flying IFR in UK airspace. About the only IL62s that are potential visitors to Brize would be something like Polish Air Force (if they still have them - I haven't looked). But they would be operating as GAT and would be tracked. Nothing else of any size with rear-mounted engines, vintage or otherwise, is flying.
Wikinaccurate says the only remaining operators of IL-62s are Russia, North Korea, Sudan and Rada. No, not the school for luvvies but an airline from Belarus, who apparently still have two.
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The one in the video at Donny is RADA, and is a cargo aircraft. I wonder if they visited Brize recently? It's possible.
Edit: but sadly not. The last time either of their aircraft was in UK was 24 December 2020, at Doncaster again. Neither has flown since 4 Jan 21.
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Talk of the Devil... we've just had a Chinook fly over. First one in ages.
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Here too. 5 minutes ago. Heading north
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Same here...
Is the Zombpocalypse upon us?
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Heading westwards over the Isle of Dogs just now... I reckon we get a Chinook overhead pretty often, it feels like several times a week.
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Here too. 5 minutes ago. Heading north
I was on a Zoom call, so unable to rush to the window to point.
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Heading westwards over the Isle of Dogs just now... I reckon we get a Chinook overhead pretty often, it feels like several times a week.
I believe the quickest low-level route from RAF Odiham, Hampshire (their main base) and East Anglia (where many of their Army customers are) involves going up/down the Thames and the Lea Valley. That avoids congested airspace around Gatwick and Biggin Hill to the South of London, and Luton, Southend and Stansted to the North and East. They quite often transit below Heathrow's approach/departure lanes in the process.
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I was getting this on a fairly regular basis when I wasn't WFH and work meant Walthamstow - just akin to the Lea Valley and Mr.Larrington.
ETA - My guess is that they're heading for the Army barracks at Woolwich.
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They appear to use the A3 as a navigational assist, at least in SW20.
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They appear to use the A3 as a navigational assist, at least in SW20.
Known as IFR* Navigation.
*I Follow Roads
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They appear to use the A3 as a navigational assist, at least in SW20.
Known as IFR* Navigation.
*I Follow Roads
I'm sure that was preceded by IFR v1 (I Follow Railways), hence why many stations used to have their name painted in huge letters on the roof. (Banstead was one.)
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ETA - My guess is that they're heading for the Army barracks at Woolwich.
We're between Greenwich and Woolwich and they go over reasonably frequently, often in pairs. I've never been close to Woolwich at the right time to see if they actually land there, or if they keep on going.
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They appear to use the A3 as a navigational assist, at least in SW20.
Known as IFR* Navigation.
*I Follow Roads
I'm sure that was preceded by IFR v1 (I Follow Railways), hence why many stations used to have their name painted in huge letters on the roof. (Banstead was one.)
No it’s a “joke” on Instrument Flight Rules or for when it’s not safe to fly using visual references.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_flight_rules