Author Topic: Resolution 2  (Read 14259 times)

alfapete

  • Oh dear
Resolution 2
« on: 20 December, 2022, 01:59:44 pm »
This appeared this morning. Might prompt some debate:
http://forum.audax.uk/index.php?topic=2308.msg17812;topicseen#msg17812
It's proposed that Members shall be awarded points at a rate of 0.5 point for every 50km in BP, BR, BRM and RM events validated by Audax UK, plus PBP, Flèches Nationales, BRM and RM events validated by ACP or LRM and Audax events validated by UAF of 50km or more.
alfapete - that's the Pete that drives the Alfa

Notfromrugby

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #1 on: 20 December, 2022, 03:54:18 pm »
This appeared this morning. Might prompt some debate:
http://forum.audax.uk/index.php?topic=2308.msg17812;topicseen#msg17812
It's proposed that Members shall be awarded points at a rate of 0.5 point for every 50km in BP, BR, BRM and RM events validated by Audax UK, plus PBP, Flèches Nationales, BRM and RM events validated by ACP or LRM and Audax events validated by UAF of 50km or more.

Totally in favour. In the UK most brevets are BP and typically count for nothing… it would be good to see points awarded for any validated brevet. It might also help events of odd distances, like 250km for instance

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #2 on: 20 December, 2022, 04:41:42 pm »
totally not in favour!

points are for long distance cycling, which IMO starts at 200 km

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #3 on: 20 December, 2022, 04:47:28 pm »
Raises the question of e-bikes and points

Notfromrugby

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #4 on: 20 December, 2022, 04:57:02 pm »
totally not in favour!

points are for long distance cycling, which IMO starts at 200 km

That’s arbitrary and discriminatory too. Plenty of senior riders who are quite keen on the BPs and cut off from any award… 200 km is an imaginary target… some 200 in the calendar can be done in 7 hours, just like some 100… I am thinking the Black Peak/white peak summer BP series for instance, they all have nearly 2000 mt of climbing, which is way more than some BR.

Notfromrugby

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #5 on: 20 December, 2022, 05:02:57 pm »
Raises the question of e-bikes and points

I thought you could ride a BP on an ebike, but it would not be validated… so no points either way

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #6 on: 20 December, 2022, 05:25:18 pm »
You currently do not get any points for a BP, thus not sure the question of e-bikes came up regards points.

Notfromrugby

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #7 on: 20 December, 2022, 05:27:42 pm »
You currently do not get any points for a BP, thus not sure the question of e-bikes came up regards points.

You get AAA points in some BP, so I am pretty sure you don’t get validation with an ebike… otherwise you could get the rather prestigious AAARTY award with an ebike

mattc

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Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #8 on: 20 December, 2022, 06:17:45 pm »
totally not in favour!

points are for long distance cycling, which IMO starts at 200 km

That’s arbitrary and discriminatory too. Plenty of senior riders who are quite keen on the BPs and cut off from any award… 200 km is an imaginary target…
- they're not cut off from awards;
-50km is arbitrary too.

(Does a 50k really feel like "long distance cycling" to you?)
Has never ridden RAAM
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Kim

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Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #9 on: 20 December, 2022, 06:20:50 pm »
Seems reasonable to me.  'Long distance' depends on the rider, and it seems reasonable to recognise the achievement of completing
many smaller events, especially when they involve challenging (but not necessarily hilly) terrain or winter weather.

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #10 on: 20 December, 2022, 06:24:16 pm »
<harrumph/> Would not vote in favour. Likely won't bother to vote against.

Yes, what would constitute "long distance" is arbitrary. But 50k? Honestly? And would people actually pay the £3+ to register a 50k ride? I would be very curious how many 50/150km rides were registered last season and how many */100km ones.

0.5 point increments is rather arbitrary too. If you do want to change from integer points, then why not go all the way to 0.01 point for every km registered?

Kim

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Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #11 on: 20 December, 2022, 06:28:17 pm »
Does a 50k really feel like "long distance cycling" to you?

For me, 2-3 hours on the bike is the point where ergonomics and digestion start to matter, so I'd say that 100km is long distance, but 50km might not be.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #12 on: 20 December, 2022, 06:34:07 pm »
<harrumph/> Would not vote in favour. Likely won't bother to vote against.

Yes, what would constitute "long distance" is arbitrary. But 50k? Honestly? And would people actually pay the £3+ to register a 50k ride? I would be very curious how many 50/150km rides were registered last season and how many */100km ones.

0.5 point increments is rather arbitrary too. If you do want to change from integer points, then why not go all the way to 0.01 point for every km registered?

That info is readily available on the Audax uk website

For distances under 100km
516 calendar validations
and 334 in Perms/DIYs


Kim

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Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #13 on: 20 December, 2022, 06:34:49 pm »
Yes, what would constitute "long distance" is arbitrary. But 50k? Honestly? And would people actually pay the £3+ to register a 50k ride? I would be very curious how many 50/150km rides were registered last season and how many */100km ones.

I mostly see 50km rides as something for the kids and the infirm or unfit, and have done a couple of them in a group supporting young riders.  I might have done a 50km as my first DIY by GPS get my head round the validation process.  It's also something you can do to kill some time between volunteering at the start and finish of a 100.

150km rides are basically a way for AUK to recognise rides that were planned as 100 milers to attract a non-Audax demographic.  They're occasionally useful for ECEing to 200.

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #14 on: 20 December, 2022, 06:41:02 pm »
Totally agree with Laid Back Rich, BUT ….. IF …. such Points were only shown in a separate Points list for sub 200k rides, then that would get my vote, as it would be encouraging a lot of the membership who are either not up to completing 200k or who would appreciate the encouragement to build up to 200k

Notfromrugby

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #15 on: 20 December, 2022, 06:41:27 pm »
It doesn’t matter where you draw the line of long distance, that is obviously arbitrary. What matters, is to involve as many riders as possible in the awards system.
It’s about inclusion, BR are not necessarily for all. The more prestigious awards will always include long and possibly overnight brevets, but the points system should apply to all brevets. The shortest brevet is a 50, hence half a point is appropriate.
If a 50 is validated, then it means it is an Audax and therefore by definition it is long distance cycling, whether you like it or not.

Kim

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Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #16 on: 20 December, 2022, 07:17:47 pm »
Perhaps something like the 50% rule (ie. half your points have to be obtained on BR/BRM/RM rides for championship purposes) would be reasonable?

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #17 on: 20 December, 2022, 07:34:44 pm »
What matters, is to involve as many riders as possible in the awards system.

Why? (honest question)

I had a look at the results list for 2022, ("permanent events list", then sorted on distance)
* many "non-member" entries who have no need for points and awards
* many people with numerous 100+ rides and one or two 50k, would getting another point make their day?
* people with a few rides, would end up with 2-4 points total when 50k gets 0.5 point
* one person (mind: no exhaustive search) who would have added 18 points with their 50k rides  :thumbsup:

My guesstimate would be that this proposal would affect only a handful of people in a meaningful way.

Notfromrugby

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #18 on: 20 December, 2022, 08:14:35 pm »
What matters, is to involve as many riders as possible in the awards system.

Why? (honest question)

I had a look at the results list for 2022, ("permanent events list", then sorted on distance)
* many "non-member" entries who have no need for points and awards
* many people with numerous 100+ rides and one or two 50k, would getting another point make their day?
* people with a few rides, would end up with 2-4 points total when 50k gets 0.5 point
* one person (mind: no exhaustive search) who would have added 18 points with their 50k rides  :thumbsup:

My guesstimate would be that this proposal would affect only a handful of people in a meaningful way.

I’ll flip it for you. There is a bunch of local hard core high flying randonneurs who never enter my local BP essentially because there is nothing in it for them… so they would have to extend it via ECE to make it worthwhile… basically do an extra loop of some sort…

Kim

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Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #19 on: 20 December, 2022, 08:49:18 pm »
I’ll flip it for you. There is a bunch of local hard core high flying randonneurs who never enter my local BP essentially because there is nothing in it for them…

Also a compelling argument.

felstedrider

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #20 on: 20 December, 2022, 08:52:03 pm »
I recall a similar motion 20+ years ago at an AGM near Sheffield.

After some lively debate it was voted down pretty firmly.

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #21 on: 20 December, 2022, 10:40:24 pm »
Could also encourage more interesting routes for 50km or 100km rides. ie off-road, or extremely hilly. Or doing them on a silly bike. Would be a proper challenge, not just for the kids and infirm.
And what about 200km (or longer) BPs? Would be nice to do some long off-road rides, with a more relaxed time limit.

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #22 on: 21 December, 2022, 12:19:25 am »
There is a bunch of local hard core high flying randonneurs who never enter my local BP essentially because there is nothing in it for them…
I don't believe that's the case, if the ride doesn't appeal, adding half a point isn't going to change that. 
If you tried to survey the membership to find out what they thought of the points system, you'd spend a lot of time explaining that there was one, only to have most wander off disinterested before you'd had chance to tell them about the PRIZES!

 

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #23 on: 21 December, 2022, 01:40:06 am »
I do about three-four ~40-50km rides before work.

For the princely sum of 3 quid a pop could be accumulating another 100-points a season.

 For me the big difference is the difference in regulations for BR vs BP events. i.e. BP events have lower min speeds.

I'd probably be more willing to accept 100km events as 1pt starting point if they were ridden to BR standards. i.e. 14.3kmph min.

I do also see merit in 0.5pt per 50km rather than 1pt per 100. On the 1590km Eightsome reel perm we only for 15pts!

Notfromrugby

Re: Resolution 2
« Reply #24 on: 21 December, 2022, 07:34:13 am »
I don’t see why anyone would vote against.
Points are simply an incentive to ride more and Audax could certainly do with more rides… some events struggle to run in double digit. There will never be a day when the winner of the point league table will be someone who rode 360 BP, so what’s the fear?

I never bother to validate a 100 km solo ride, but if I could earn a point towards some award, I might be tempted to pay the 4 quid and do it as a DIY… it’s all revenue for AUK, what’s not to like?